Issue with Note 1 of the Tiering System

[Zamasu_Chan]

Question, if a cosmology only had a large galaxy and a character destroyed it with 1% of its power does that not make said person multi galaxy?

 

[Sera_EX]

Of course not. It makes him above baseline 3-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it seems like I had a bad idea then.

@Sera

Do you have any suggestion for how to reword the footnote?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

By large galaxy I meant the highest level of 3-C. Sorry for being vague :/

 

[My_area]

Then yes in full power character might get a 3-B rating

 

[Greenshifter]

But this would only be because 3-B is defined by a certain amount of joules, while a similar system of energy lacks within tier 2.

 

[Sera_EX]

Do you have any suggestion for how to reword the footnote?

I'm burnt out and can't really think of anything right now.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Sera Better take some rest

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Please rest until you feel better. Listen to some relaxing meditation music, sleep, exercise, walk in nature, etcetera. That usually helps me.

 

[My_area]

You should take break and have rest perhaps sleeping will make it better hopefully you will recover soon

 

[Ryukama]

I agree with DDM

 

[Antvasima]

We apparently do need to improve on the footnote explanation to avoid misunderstandings though. Does anybody have any good suggestions?

 

[My_area]

I didn't really understand the confusion here though the thing is that tier 3 has quantifiable numerical gap so we know that infinite times 3-B would be High 3-A however in case of tier 2 gap between each subtier of tier 2 is unquantifiable or perhaps even infinity we dont know about it though the example I want to know that what is infinity here? Multiplier or the gap? Apology for confusions

 

[Zeifyl]

I didn't really understand the confusion here though the thing is that tier 3 has quantifiable numerical gap so we know that infinite times 3-B would be High 3-A however in case of tier 2 gap between each subtier of tier 2 is unquantifiable or perhaps even infinity we dont know about it though the example I want to know that what is infinity here? Multiplier or the gap? Apology for confusions

Well, that argument can be made for the jump between Low 2-C and 2-C, since Low 2-C hasn't bridged a gap between realities.

By definition, even a Baseline 2-C has bridged that gap at least once. And since 2-C and 2-B both deal with a finite number of gaps between a finite number of realities (and because we can only make assumptions based on what is known, in this case, that all known gaps have been finite, in order for the 2-C to be able to cross them), assuming that other gaps might be infinite would be a major logical fallacy.

Sure, they're unquantifiable, but why would some jumps be finite and others be infinite, especially within tiers that, by their very definition, are finite?


Also, to everyone else in this thread, what's the verdict here?

 

[Antvasima]

We apparently do need to improve on the footnote explanation to avoid misunderstandings. Does anybody have any good suggestions?

^

 

[Zeifyl]

"Due to the fact that the distance between any given number of universes embedded in higher-dimensional / higher-order spaces is currently unknowable, it is impossible to quantify the numerical gap between each one of the subtiers in Tier 2. As such, it is not allowed to upgrade such a character based solely on multipliers. For example, someone twice as strong as a Low 2-C character would still be Low 2-C, and someone obscenely more powerful than a 2-C wouldn't be 2-B." perhaps?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. I would prefer input from Sera, but don't know if she is still tired.

 

[Greenshifter]

There should be a mention about infinity as well since it is not a conventional multiplier, does this also apply to upscaling within 2-A, for instance someone being baseline 2-A getting a 2 times multiplier would actually not be assumed to be twice as strong?

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Multipliers above low 2-C should only be 2-C if there's a specific cosmology thing that makes it work. I do support the 2-C to 2-A thing, though.

 

[Sera_EX]

Since this is specifically a matter regarding multipliers, how about I just make a page specifically for multipliers? It's long overdue anyway since a lot of people don't understand that fiction 9/10 use multipliers that do not translate well into our AP chart. Like someone being 5x a planet level guy being solar system level. Same applies to trying to use multipliers to upgrade a character beyond what their highest feats or even their verse's cosmology imply they are.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That is true, and we kind of already have a page for Multipliers actually. Though, if there are things in needed of an update, sure.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with if Sera wishes to write a draft for an improvement of our Multipliers page.

 

[Zeifyl]

I didn't even know we had that page!

 

[My_area]

@Zeifyl The thing is yeah you are right that it would be fallacious to assume that gap is infinite but from 2-C and 2-B the timelines are obviously finite but the distance between each timeline is unknown as we have no way to quantify a 4D distance between them since they are separated by space and time continum so logically the gap should be greater than 3D level of infinity so I believe someone only ever crossed 2-C if they either have a direct feat or some statement to support then case

I dont know if what I am saying is right but sure numbers are finite like 2 or 3 but at tier 2 they have already crossed the conventional infinity ie High 3-A so calling the tier finite would be kinda weird honestly since 2 and more here are dealing with levels of 4D so we cant really say finite in 3D level of sense just like how 5D and 6D despite having finite number(5,6) but their obviously not non finite but I believe same is the case with tier 2 except its talking about 4D but we have no way to quantify 4D distance as it goes beyond all 3D measurable or Immeasurable distance thats why I believe the note is fine but its upto you guys

 

[Planck69]

Small question. Let's say verse A has Bob being confirmed to be hundreds of times stronger than a monster that could consume a timeline and demonstrates a feat that puts him at baseline 2-C.

Now, we have verse B where Alice is fighting a god that can destroy the entire universe and uses a 10 times multiplier to destroy both the realm they're fighting in and the normal timeline in a single blow (another baseline 2-C feat).

Would Alice and Bob be equal or would the latter be stronger?

 

[My_area]

Verse A Bob being 100 times stronger than Low 2-C monster should still be Low 2-C and him demonstrating a baseline 2-C means he is 2-C and 100 times here is just being used to describe the difference between him and that Low 2-C monster

I assume you mean that god can destroy entire universe space and time meaning Alice fighting low 2-C god would be low 2-C but however him using 10 times multiplier to perform a baseline 2-C (btw it looks like above baseline 2-C feat ie both realms assuming realms are Low 2-C individually and a timeline so it would be 3 timeline feat) means that multiplier cant be used since gap between Low 2-C and 2-C is unquantifiable

So its Bob(2 timeline feat) vs Alice(3 timeline feat) so Alice is stronger in my opinion

 

[Planck69]

Verse A Bob being 100 times stronger than Low 2-C monster should still be Low 2-C and him demonstrating a baseline 2-C means he is 2-C and 100 times here is just being used to describe the difference between him and that Low 2-C monster

I assume you mean that god can destroy entire universe space and time meaning Alice fighting low 2-C god would be low 2-C but however him using 10 times multiplier to perform a baseline 2-C (btw it looks like above baseline 2-C feat ie both realms assuming realms are Low 2-C individually and a timeline so it would be 3 timeline feat) means that multiplier cant be used since gap between Low 2-C and 2-C is unquantifiable

So its Bob(2 timeline feat) vs Alice(3 timeline feat) so Alice is stronger in my opinion

I was going for the scenario where both the creature and the god were baseline and the multiplier is confirmed in-verse. My main problem is that both of them scale above the same level of power with one of them scaling further above the same feat than the other but having to throw away all of that and automatically equalize them.

Basically, I'm still confused why Bob is 200-900 times X and Alice is 10 times X but Alice is somehow stronger.

 

[My_area]

If both creature and god are baseline 2-C or Low 2-C and Bob scales 200 to 900 above X and Alice only 10 times above X then Bob is much stronger but if Alice did a 3 timeline feat while Bob did 2 then no multiplier would help Bob reach Alice level since gap between each timeline is unquantifiable

 

[Planck69]

If both creature and god are baseline 2-C or Low 2-C and Bob scales 200 to 900 above X and Alice only 10 times above X then Bob is much stronger but if Alice did a 3 timeline feat while Bob did 2 then no multiplier would help Bob reach Alice level since gap between each timeline is unquantifiable

In this case, both of the scenarios you mentioned above are true which is what confuses me. The only way I can see it being rationalized to is that the continua in verse A are further away than in B, leading Bob to need more power to destroy the same number of universes than Alice.

But if we went this way then there's a strong possibility of a Low 2-C being far more powerful than a 2-C, which can't fly at all (we already had this problem with 1-A/0). Or we equalize the distance between universes which would be even worse.

Or maybe I'm just not getting it?

 

[Greenshifter]

@My Area on one hand I agree but I'm also inclined to say that Bob is stronger than Alice because of their statements they effectively quantified the gap between universes and thus we can conclude that Bob could destroy more universes within Alice's cosmology (if her verse's cosmology allowed it). However we would also need to be certain that the baseline low 2-C characters used their full power to destroy the universe and this is so specific that I doubt any verse actually qualifies. Oh and Alice and Bob both destroyed 2 universes, not 3, you misread that.

@Plack In my opinion DBS Goku probably has enough of a scaling chain to fight on par with or oneshot both, again they effectively quantified the gap by using multipliers but I am aware this is not how we currently threat it.

 

[Planck69]

@My Area on one hand I agree but I'm also inclined to say that Bob is stronger than Alice because of their statements they effectively quantified the gap between universes and thus we can conclude that Bob could destroy more universes within Alice's cosmology (if her verse's cosmology allowed it). However we would also need to be certain that the baseline low 2-C characters used their full power to destroy the universe and this is so specific that I doubt any verse actually qualifies. Oh and Alice and Bob both destroyed 2 universes, not 3, you misread that.

I'm pretty sure that there are verses that jump to 2-C from scaling besides Dragon Ball. This was mostly for me to know what would happen should a scenario where two of these verses 2-Cs were to fight.

Anyway, thanks to you and my area for trying to answer my questions.

 

[My_area]

@Planck69

I agree it could become confusing it depends on which scenario you are using or which scenario verse is using so we can scale it to them accordingly or unless the space and time continum of Alice is far away then yeah they could be equalized

1) Bob has a higher multiplier than Alice and performs a baseline 2-C feat but he performs 2 timeline feat as baseline 2-C is destroying 2 timelines vs Alice having lower multiplier than Bob but performs a 3 timeline feat so by virtue of feats Alice would be stronger because multiplers cant really be used in sub tiers of tier 2

2) If X is Low 2-C or 2-C and Bob has a higher multiplier compared to Alice and Bob is 200-900 times x and Alice is 10 times x then by virtue of multiplier Bob is much stronger since both have same x to scale to but Bob clearly is much stronger in comparison to x so in this case they would be 10-900 times above Low 2-C if x is low 2-C so baseline 2-C would still be stronger because in order to qualify for 2-C the 4D distance between them needs to be considered too which is unknown

So you got it,its just that it depends on verses and scenarios as well as feat/scaling chain in question

So going by scenario 1 Alice stomps because of having a superior feat and in scenario 2 Bob stomps because of being stronger than x in comparison to Alice when they scale to same x so I am glad to answer your questions

 

[Greenshifter]

@My Area The thing is which scenario is the right one? You keep saying that the gap is unquantifiable but in both Alice's and Bob's verses they quantified the gap.

 

[My_area]

@Greenshifter

Depends on which scenario you are talking about as in scenario 1 Alice performs a superior feat but in scenario 2 Bob is much stronger than X than Alice is so in scenario 1 both Bob and Alice surpassed the gap but Bob surpasses the gap of 2 universes and Alice does for 3 while in scenario 2 assuming X is Low 2-C so both are still Low 2-C since they didn't surpass the gap between Low 2-C and 2-C its just Bob is stronger Low 2-C in comparison to Alice because Bob is 200-900 times Low 2-C and Alice is just 10 times 2-C and yeah Low 2-C needs full power to destroy complete universe for absolute baseline but its too specific and I am pretty sure he mentioned that Alice performs a 10 times multipler to destroy both the realms(2) and a timeline they are in(3) so Alice is superior in 1 scenario

In scenario 1 Goku is still low 2-C so he gets stomped by both but in scenario 2 Goku stomps Alice since she is 10 times above Low 2-C but maybe not Bob since he is 200 to 900 times Low 2-C

 

[Greenshifter]

The thing is Alice and Bob use their multipliers to jump from low 2-C to 2-C since they are confirmed as baseline without them and then use their multipliers to become 2-C. So there is no scenario 1 and 2. Only one of them is true, the question is which one?

 

[Planck69]

@My area

The problem is that you seem to think that the scenarios are mutually exclusive. By the way, I'm sorry if I confused you but the realm in the second scenario is it's own separate space-time, making Alice's feat baseline 2-C. That's where the problem lies: Same feat; different scaling.

If both of them were to be put in a versus match, how would we go about it? Do we ignore blatant scaling in Bob's verse or is this a situation where a baseline one-shots another baseline?

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

It's only a problem if both low 2-Cs are proven to be baseline.

 

[Planck69]

It's only a problem if both low 2-Cs are proven to be baseline.

Well I'd made this hypothetical situation with the Low 2-Cs being baseline in mind.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

In that case, we have a problem.

 

[Planck69]

In that case, we have a problem.

How do you think this can be solved?