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Issue with Energy Equalization

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ProfessorKukui4Life

ProfessorKukui4Life

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Yeah this is happening again and im asking this because of what was mentioned in this mess of a thread . It was closed before I could continue, so im taking this to its own thread.

This is about the functions of energies once they are equalized in a vs match-up. Why is it that when we equalize an energy with another energy (like if we equalize Chakra with Magic or Ki with Reiatsu), we don't treat the equalized energy as being exactly the same as the energy its being pitted against but instead just some 2.0 knock-off? What actual justificatio do we have for doing this? Because from how I am seeing this, this comes off as being very selective on what qualities the equalized energies would and wouldn't share, making it cherry picking to support or oppose one side when it's most convienent. This is what I originally said in the thread I linked about this issue:

"Well then this is a problem from what im looking at because if we're equalizing energies here, Ravens power is Reiatsu. We can't just remove the qualities of equalized energies for one side but keep it for another. That is cherry picking to make it more convienent for one side of a match. If Raven's energy = Reiatsu then her energy needs to be treated exactly the same as it."

Basically to sum up my question, if there is an energy from a verse that has a special quality about it where characters get powers just by having the energy in their Possession, and that energy gets equalized with another verses's energy in a vs-match, why are we making it so that the opposing energy gets selectively equalized in only some aspects rather than all of them? Now, in the same thread I linked, users did give me a reply to this that i'll post below:

Reply 1:

"Because we not gave Raven Reiatsu, she merely can interact with Reiatsu, if we gave her reiasu she have all of these by default

>Pseudo-flight, Spiritual Awareness , Extrasensory Perception, Aura and Resistance to Soul Manipulation

So this become Ichigo vs fanfic Raven, In fact anyone who fight bleach people will have all of that by default, so it become fanfic ur fav vs bleach chars."

Reply 2:

"There isn't any problem here with not equalising resistances or abilities granted by the energy. If we were to grant someone powers they don't have through verse equal, specifically something their energy has not shown an equivalent to, then we have a problem."

My Responses to that
This is where it leaves off before I could try and reply to these points. Now reading these, there are 2 problems I have with those responses. The first of which concerns the text I bolded out in Reply 2. Apparently we don't give verses powers via energy equalization but the thing is, in a way, we do grant verses powers and/or capabilities that they would never actually have without verse equalization being a way around it. I'll use Naruto and Dragon Ball as 2 examples, first Naruto as it's a very big offender of this when it comes to energies equalized.

Naruto characters here are able to use Genjutsu on any other character that has their verses energy equalized with chakra because if we didn't do that, all Genjutsu besides the Infinite Tsukuyomi would be completely useless in a vs match. Why? Because Chakra in the Naruto world is strictly limited to the unique chakra network its characters have and without a chakra network, majority of genjutsu isn't able to be used on an opponent. And Naruto has been one of the biggest complications in the past when it had come to this topic since normally you'd have to debate if one verses energy is the same as another ones in order to claim genjutsu can work. But with our standards on here, chakra is able to be the same as other energy sources from approrpiate verses to allow Genjutsu in itself to work. So in this format, we have and currently still do allow verses to have things they wouldnt actually have without verses equalization. In Naruto's case, not only does this allow them to use Genjutsu on characters that dont have a chakra network, this also makes a significant amount of characters and verses automatically vulnerable to Genjutsu to the point where they would need resistance to mind manipulation in order to dispel it or otherwise. Genjutsu also isnt the only thing from Naruto that would also get a boost from energies being equal. Other things in the verse like the Byakugan's Gentle Fist hitting chakra points, TSB's, Chakra sensing, and maybe Rinnegan abilities would also benefit from this standard.

Dragon Ball doesn't get as much benefits from equalizing energies if memory serves me, but it gets some nonetheless as well. Like the Gods of Destruction being un-perceivable by characters without a godly-based energy like God-Ki, characters being able to use KI sensing on non-Ki users, nullifying non-KI energy based attacks via making them the same as KI, etc.

So when it comes down to this, the saying of "we don't give abilities to characters energies through energy equalization" is very wrong. We do. And if we're going to allow an energies abilities to work on verses whose energy is completely different, why can't we give energies the same abilities as each other when we equalize them? I have yet to see an explicit explanation that says we cant or rather shouldn't, so this returns to my previous point that selectively allowing what gets applied to what when equalizing energies is made up, selective, cherry picking, and based around convenience to help or go against characters in a fight. This is like saying Speed Equalization needs to be changed to only certain aspects of speed being equalized, like if we equalize reaction speed but not combat speed. Or saying needing to get rid of it all together since it should be ridiculous to make characters who move as low as FTL to as high as Immeasurable the same exact speed as subsonic characters, yet we currently do this. Literally ALL. THE. TIME. And not a single person here on this site bats an eye at this standard being a thing.

As for the "only interact" point in Reply 1, this looks just as made up and selective as well. Energies only being allowed to Interact with each other, even though they are next to if not completely different? And if we're allowing them to interact, to what established extent? Literally none of this has been explained or made clear and if nothing else this is just as "fan-fictional" as giving other verse's energies abilities they dont normally have otherwise without energy equalization...which again, we already do currently.

So as far as im concerned, if energies are being equalized, they need to be given both the pros and the cons as each other instead of just picking and choosing what gets applied and what doesn't. Unless there's a really good explanation on why we shouldnt do this.
 
I completely agree with something needing to be changed. There are other verses too which are getting away by ignoring energy equalization rules
 
Most of equalizing issues comes from the fact that the user do not known about the nature of the opposite character's power/element/energy/force. Most verse with a moderate amount of effort from their creator generally explain how their power works, so one just need to figure out what's the nature of both forces and see how similar they are; if they do not share nothing in common, then they can't be equalized (otherwise, it would be a contradictory and inconsistent mess).

Yes, I known is pretty hard that people known how both forces work, but that is the point of debates, am I right? For instance, I do not think magic (TT) and Reiryoku are the same, the first one its more about control supernatural phenomena to obtain certain effects, the last one its a more particular Life-Force Manipulation related.
 
I agree, under the current method, verses like Bleach and others get to abuse "Technicalities" of the verses energy systems and mechanics built into it as a way to "Circumvent" equalization.

When you encounter such threads, things are hardly "Equal" when you read through them and the debates tend to make the reason for Equalization poinless. Clarification is definitely needed, because as of now, nothing is really "Equal". Either we go all the way or we don't do it at all. Equalization should be noted for Wins or loses on pages as well letting readers know under what conditions the matches were won and loss (If we don't already do that).
 
If one is well versed of how the forces works one hardly have to equalize, as their own concept equalize them. But again, people needs to discuss about that.
 
This also causes issues when "equivalent energies" gives some rather insane abilities. For example, Sword Logic. We gonna give everyone who's killed lots of people shit like Acausality 5 and COncept 2?
 
Guys, the point about "only equivalant energies should get equalized" has nothing to do with why I made this thread.

Im talking about energies after they are equalized in a match-up. So whether this applies to many energies or only ones that can be made equalized, doesnt matter.
 
Sword Logic still stands. Page explains more in depth, but basically you can kill a ton of shit then kill abstract things like concepts and laws and causality to become broken as hell. Giving abilities like this to people just because they kill a lot of people (an equivalent) seems bad.

If you want another example because yeah ik Sword Logic has more going on, the Light is a much more basic sort of shared power. It gives literally everyone acausality 4, law manip and reality warping, and gives the PC a ton of other shit like concept manip and existence erasure. Both Light and the Sword Logic give a lot of resistances too. Just because someone has Naruto magic or whatever, doesn't mean they should instantly get a billion resistances and high tier abilities like that even if "equivalent". Their powers are what they have and to arbitrarily assign powers like this is to misrepresent the characters.
 
@Wokistan

Is that a power give just by having the energy? Or do the characters in the verse actually need to train and develop their powers in order to use those haxes?
 
For the Light, Law manip, RW, Acausal 4 and resistances are legit just by having it.
 
How about this then, FT and Nasu both have Magic/Magecraft. Both are called magic, both are soul based, both can be used to perform a wide bevy of things etc etc. Due to many similarities, we can verse equal them for the purposes of say, Natsu is able to power null magecraft with his flames and that Nasu MR works on said flames. We don't however, just grant FT Mages the MR associated with Nasu mana because Ethernano doesn't possess that property. How about members of Dragon Kind having a Magical Core that gives them nigh infinite energy? Are we now going to say that Dragon Slayers via being part Dragon and thus classed as Dragon Kind in Nasu would also get said Core just because there is a similarity with FT Origins?
 
That force actually sounds pretty unique to be equalized. One could perform same effects by using advanced magical arts, but simply having magic wouldn't grant those powers.
 
@Wokistan If those are given just by having the energy as you say it is, then yeah I do believe the energy being made equal with it should give the character possessing it the abilities as well to be perfectly honest. Because when we make energies equalized, we are making it an even-playing field. And it becomes very bad when we start selectively picking out what quality from what energy gets applied to the energy that is being made to be equal with it. And like I said it my OP, this is no different then us making the speeds of 2 characters in completely different speed tiers the same as each other with speed equalization. On paper, making an immeasurable or irrelevent speed character the same speed as a subsonic character is nonsense. But yet, we do it anyway for the sake of a match and just note that speed is equalized for whoever won/lost on theur pages. So why can't we do the same thing for energies that grant abilities just by having it?

Also, it should be remembered here that just because the opponent is being given a power from another verse, doesn't mean they know how to actively use it. Like if my energy is being equalized with a verse who's energy gives all it's characters time manipulation, I may be given it upon energy equalization, but would I know how to use it in the matchup? No. So its not even as harmful as some are making it out to be here.
 
Speed equalization is the exception. Comparing other things to it is bad. I'd much rather some matches (considerably fewer than "nearly all of them", as is the case with speed) just not work well than say we can arbitrarily make people capable of destroying laws and reality just because "lol magic does this in one place". It ignores the entire point of comparing characters based on their own abilities and skills and instead just becomes "how far can I take equalization".

With the Light example, they don't need to know how. Law and RW is just a consequence of their weapons, and resistances and acausality aren't really things that you need to actively use.
 
The speed equal comparison isn't that good. Making a peak human (A) = to an immeasurable (B) doesn't just grant A the time travel B gets from his raw speed. You can say that they are = down to the peak human speed but that still doesn't restrict B from using his time travel thatis a result of his raw speed. Verse equal shouldn't give nor restrict abilities for either side as to do so is to no longer arguing based on what they can do but a what if scenario where they did or did not possess an ability. If restriciting abilities isn't allowed, randomly granting them shouldn't either.
 
My last point was more about active abilities that you would be granted. Just because you gain an ability from energy equalization doesnt mean you can use it. If you dont have any experience in using it, then its pretty useless in a match. Of course this is a case by case basis thing.

Resistances are a different story but they become useless too if the opponent doesnt use the power you'd gain a resistance to.
 
That is true with the speed equalization thing too, we give Infinite/Immeasurable/Irrelevant resistances to time based powers due to their speeds superceding such things, even when they're equalized.

Lot of abilities happen just as a consequence of someone's existence. I'm against the principle of giving people extra abilities like this in the first place anyways. As for the resistances, well Destiny is a rather absurd verse. You see the resistances list of Akka, Worm of Secrets? The Player Character's gonna have an even bigger one and a lot of it will be just for having Light. So in essence, Naruto now resists concept manip type 2 because he fought someone from destiny. That makes no sense.
 
Ridiculous, via this logic for example you equalize Chakra with Cosmos from Saint Seiya. Now all of sudden the person with chakra is going to have atom destroying punches? why in the world would we give people powers they don't inherently have?
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
Ridiculous, via this logic for example you equalize Chakra with Cosmos from Saint Seiya. Now all of sudden the person with chakra is going to have atom destroying punches? why in the world would we give people powers they don't inherently have?
Click to expand...
Horrible example considering these 2 verses are not remotely comparable, in like, any way. But for the sake or argument, yes im going to argue this because its even more ridiculous to cherry pick what gets equalized from the resulting energies to make it more or less convienent for a side and we have absolutely no justificatio as to why we are doing this in the first place.

Not to mention, we already do this in vs matches. Or did my Naruto example go past you Sigurd?
 
And yet magically deciding what applies and what doesnt when equalizing energies ISNT fan-fiction already? And considering we again already do this in vs matches, "turning them into a fanfic character" is not an argument.

Not unless you want to throw away the entire standard in and of itself.
 
Welp, in short I would agree with Wok's suggestion, and simply nope any attemp to equalize verse forces (so people could have something to discuss about).
 
"And yet magically deciding what applies and what doesnt when equalizing energies ISNT fan-fiction already? And considering we again already do this in vs matches, "turning them into a fanfic character" is not an argument."

I'd be fine with not equalizing energies at all tbh

It also is an argument. Vs battles should be fought with abilities and resistances a character actually has, not ones arbitrarily assigned to them. That is the entire purpose of the site, categorizing their capabilities. Giving abilities like this undermines our very purpose.
 
Then like...what about talkimg away the weakness of naruto characters needing the target to have chakra to use genjutze?
 
Well I and multiple other users here certainly do not agree with just selectively choosing what applies and what doesnt applies to equalized energies just to convienently boost a character or shoot another one down in a vs match as that is even worse than giving powers away in a fight.

If someone has a solution to this, be my guest in naming it. Because things as they stand now are certainly and very wrong.
 
Darkmon cns said:
Then like...what about talkimg away the weakness of naruto characters needing the target to have chakra to use genjutze?
Click to expand...
^^^^

Going to say this again unless people have missed it. We already do give powers to other verses based on energy equalization, Naruto characters using Genjutsu being a perfect and a very common example of this. So if we're going to do this, you can't back pedal and disagree with doing it for other verses.

It's one or the other.
 
Solution: Don't do it

Isn't all that applies just stuff like "they have a life force" as opposed to "they have life force type 1238 as opposed to life force type 6969 so they don't work"? That's a far cry from "they now resist nearly every power on the wiki because they fought destiny man"
 
Chakra is chi, that is the "physical" variation of life-force (vitality); I may not known about Naruto, but I think you just need to have vitality to be affected by genjutsu (reason why undeads are unaffected by it, as they lacks of vitality), known how to use it is not necessaey to be affected by it.
 
Darkmon cns said:
Then like...what about talkimg away the weakness of naruto characters needing the target to have chakra to use genjutze?
Click to expand...
About this, I have seen people here argue that genjutsu doesn't need a chakra system in the first place. I don't look into debating Naruto mechanics much so this would something I'd like to actually know seeing as people complain about this weakness but then I see it argued that the weakness doesn't exist.
 
That is, we do not equalize anything.

Those who absorb magic cannot absorb chakra and other energies.
Genjutsu are useless to any character outside of Naruto's verse.
Those who interact with chakra souls will not interact with souls from other verses because they are different compositions.
If you copy Jutsus, you are restricted to jutsus and only jutsus. Magic and other skills ... Restricted!

Is this more or less being proposed here, or am I missing some things?
 
No one here has even tackled Dragon Ball yet. Naruto isnt the only example of a verse that gets powers from energy equalization.
 
The weakness is there but not fire sharingan users who insert their own chakra into the opponent and use that to control the opponent
 
Not sure what the point of this one, verse equal make diff energy can interact with each other but won't give others party new abilities from other verse, its pretty much what they have vs what their opponent have with as minimal interfere to their original capabilities as possible, so when 1 parties win, they do win because they just have better abilities/intelligent/more skilled.

Not because when they facing against verse A now they have soul manip, immorality, can see ghost, and when they facing against verse B now they have reality warping, mind manip and resistance to those abilities, may as well write fanfic if that was the case
 
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