Ishtar NP speed revision

[Embracetophats]

something that has been bothering me for a while now regarding Ishtar's NP and its implied speed. someone took a part out


you guys have this


"Based on that anecdote, she replicates her feat which the Gods feared. First she actives Maanna's warp function to transport herself to the Venus in the outer space during the Age of Gods, where she takes possession of its concept through the management rights, and creates a copy of the conceptual planet which she loads and fires from Maanna's magazine as a bullet with extremely high firepower. After firing the bullet towards Earth's surface, Ishtar utilizes displacement magecraft to warp it into the modern era's airspace. Upon impact, it's able to destroy the mountain range that was a nuisance to the Earth and Venus."


is it supposed to be this:

"While in the middle of her Noble Phantasm, she warps to Venus; however, this is not the Venus in the outer space of the modern era's, but rather, the Venus in the outer space during the time of the age of mythology. Afterwards, grabbing (the concept of) Venus and loading it onto her bow as a bullet, the Venus Blaster shoots this Venus that had been turned into a bullet towards the Earth (surface), and from another person's perspective, it casually warps into the modern era's airspace through the utilization of displacement magic. The mountain range that was a nuisance to others, even to the Earth and to Venus, is accordingly destroyed by this Venus."


the animation itself doesnt show the shot going through a portal or anything of the sort like Ishtar does, so it doesnt showcase spatial shifting, just temporal shifting.


and "from another person's perspective" isnt the same as "it does this". that is to say, it seems more to indicate that someone else that is seeing it will think that spatial displacement happened, not that it did, which could be attributed to just how fast the shot is.


TLDR: i think we should make Ishtar's shot MFTL again because not only does the animaton not showcase spatial shifting, the narration that led to the downgrade is filled with language that inserts the personal biases and observational limitations of a random observer

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask some of the active and experienced members listed in the Nasuverse page to comment here.

 

[SS2V]

Isn't Nasuverse space-time real and not merely diagrammatic? In that case, transporting an object to a different point in time just is transporting it to a different point in space. The only way there's no spacial shifting is if there's no temporal shifting either -- but in that case, Ishtar's arrow would be moving extremely slowly, taking thousands of years to reach its (modern) target from (ancient) Venus.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

What SS2 said. A temporal shift would indicate a spatial shift as well, it would be hella weird if after going to the ancient Venus of Sumerian times, Ishtar shifts it back to the skies of the modern era but let's it go the rest of the way.

Especially when she's already warping herself both in time and place to Venus, but wouldn't choose to do the same to her shot. It just sounds like a weird assumption.

 

[Embracetophats]

What SS2 said. A temporal shift would indicate a spatial shift as well, it would be hella weird if after going to the ancient Venus of Sumerian times, Ishtar shifts it back to the skies of the modern era but let's it go the rest of the way.
Especially when she's already warping herself both in time and place to Venus, but wouldn't choose to do the same to her shot. It just sounds like a weird assumption.

when she warps to venus, we see a portal and her arriving at Venus.


when she shoots, we just see the shot

 

[Embracetophats]

Isn't Nasuverse space-time real and not merely diagrammatic? In that case, transporting an object to a different point in time just is transporting it to a different point in space. The only way there's no spacial shifting is if there's no temporal shifting either -- but in that case, Ishtar's arrow would be moving extremely slowly, taking thousands of years to reach its (modern) target from (ancient) Venus.

nah, not really, when we get to gods and stuff on the level of true magic.


for example, Aoko moved through time when she first activated her Magic but didnt move and when she fought Touko afterwards, she used temportal shifting in order to be invulnerable but that didnt change her 3D coordinates at all.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The fact that they don't show it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Unless you wanna imply Ishtar also warps everyone to the past with her since we never see the shot warping back to the present either.

You shouldn't also use magic as proof of anything, as they are specifically called Miracles that go beyond anything that is thought as achievable in the age when they exist. The 5th magic doesn't need to follow the laws of normal physics.

 

[SS2V]

ah, not really, when we get to gods and stuff on the level of true magic.


for example, Aoko moved through time when she first activated her Magic but didnt move and when she fought Touko afterwards, she used temportal shifting in order to be invulnerable but that didnt change her 3D coordinates at all.

The fact that an object's spatial coordinates don't visibly shift relative to the objects in its surroundings doesn't necessarily mean that they don't actually shift. It sounds like you're confusing change in spacial coordinates with change in the relative positions of objects i space. This is not correct. In 4D space, every object could hypothically be completely immobile relative to every other object through each successive temporal state, yet their spacial coordinates would all be changing with each successive temporal state, because temporal coordinates just are spacial coordinates in 4D space. That being the case, any object that is transported from one set of temporal coordinates to another without enduring through all intervening temporal states is being teleported to different spacial coordinates.

 

[Paul_Frank]

So what exactly is being proposed by the op?

Are you saying the np should he MFTL because it goes from the past to the future?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

He's proposing that from the wording, its only being implied that from another point of view, it would look like the attack had been teleported just above the enemy's by displacement magecraft.

Look at what he bolded and what he explains next in the OP.

 

[SS2V]

Yeah. The problem is that that doesn't justify a MFTL rating at all. Quite the opposite, since we know that it's fired from Venus "during the time of the age of mythology", and that it reaches its its target "in the modern era"; if it isn't warping it's moving extremely slowly.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

My point as well. Ishtar warps herself from the present in front of her enemies to the past near Venus. The attack has to come back to the present, the fact we don't see it doesn't suddenly make it not happen. So not seeing the shot being teleported really doesn't matter.

 

[Paul_Frank]

So what's being proposed is: Ishtar goes back in time to age of gods Venus and takes its concept, Ishtar then fires the shot which travels back to the present day and flies from modern Venus to Earth?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

So what's being proposed is: Ishtar goes back in time to age of gods Venus and takes its concept, Ishtar then fires the shot which travels back to the present day and flies from modern Venus to Earth?

i believe the original purpose of the OP was to give Ishtar MFTL+ attack speed.

Imo, considering all the warps, and time traveling she can do. I believe its more like Time Travel + Teleportation to make the attack hit the enemy before they can react, but meh.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Pretty much, yes.

 

[SS2V]

So what's being proposed is: Ishtar goes back in time to age of gods Venus and takes its concept, Ishtar then fires the shot which travels back to the present day and flies from modern Venus to Earth?

Rather, he seems to me to be suggesting that the arrow may somehow be temporally shifting without spacially shifting (and that this would somehow justify MFTL attack speed), which I find unintelligible.

 

[Paul_Frank]

If Ishtar can travel from the modern Earth to the past Venus in outer space in a single movement I don't see why she would just choose to send the shot to the present day and let it fly the whole way instead of also teleporting it to Earth along with sending it through time.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Well i guess it could be immeasurable attack speed

 

[SS2V]

In response to the idea (to be clear, not his idea) that she may have warped the shot to the location of modern Venus, it's odd in that case that it would visibly appear to be warping "into the modern era's airspace through the utilization of displacement magic". His idea that this appearance could be attributed to "just how fast the shot is" is unconvincing to me, because I doubt one would normally attribute very fast things falling from the sky to displacement magecraft, whatever their speed. It would only look like displacement magecraft if it suddenly appeared in the sky but was traveling at such a velocity that you would have expected to see it coming earlier, which requires the bizarre assumption that Ishtar's arrow suddenly and dramatically slows down right before hitting its target.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the TL;DR conclusions here?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The majority disagree with the OP so far.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks. Should I close this thread, or is there still discussion that needs to be handled?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Most of the people that came to talk did it today or a little before. I think you can leave it open 1 or 2 more days to see if Embrace has any other points to bring up.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Wait...When does exactly the attack travels through time ? Because it still has to cross a enormous distance before getting yeeted through time

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

We are never shown when it does, we just know it has to because Ishtar goes to the Venus of the past and not the one from the present. The problem comes when you realize that if Ishtar already has to send it back through time, why in the hell would she not warp it through space just as she herself warps to Venus?

 

[Embracetophats]

We are never shown when it does, we just know it has to because Ishtar goes to the Venus of the past and not the one from the present. The problem comes when you realize that if Ishtar already has to send it back through time, why in the hell would she not warp it through space just as she herself warps to Venus?

because we see that Ishtar requires portals in order to travel through space itself (she also showcases such abilities in her rider version, as do other divine entities, like summer lion king for example)


FGO constantly uses portals to showcase spatial shifting, however, the nasuverse has never shown the usage of anything visual to highlitght temporal shifting, or even dimensional shifting for that matter

 

[Embracetophats]

Okay. Thanks. Should I close this thread, or is there still discussion that needs to be handled?

i dont think that there are any members part of the "knowledgeable members list" here, so i would say no

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Antvasima]

I will unsubscribe to this thread due to time constraints. Somebody can send me a message later if you need my help.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Paul, me and Upgrade are pretty well versed in the verse Embrace. It really doesn't matter if our names aren't in the knowledgeable section since you put your name there by yourself.

@Embrace Considering she uses the portal to both move through space and time, and we see no such portal after she fires the shot, you are implying the conceptual Venus she fires magically appears in the present without her intervention? Sounds convincing.

Ishtar isn't Aoko, she doesn't have the 5th Magic. You are making a pretty empty, baseless claim about how time stuff looks.

 

[Embracetophats]

No.

I never said she doesnt intervene, only that she doesnt do it for the distance.

"Magic" can be accessed by many people, in a limited fashion. That is why Kojirou can use part of the 2nd or Ishtar and Amaterasu can do it as well.


Anyway, lets get back to the topic of subjective observer bias being part of the information that we have

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Kojirou was explicitly stated to use the Kaleidoscope though. If you want to say Ishtar is using the Blue, you are gonna need scans saying as much.

 

[Embracetophats]

additional info, but in the story, there is a good time gap between ishtar activating her NP and people even realising that it is coming and the shockwaves from its travel being felt. It is long enough for Gil to give a speech. Such a thing shouldnt be possible if the meteor didnt actually make the travel and just appeared there.


In fact, in Babylonia they were already in the age of gods so there would be no reason for Ishtar to use time travel there to access venus either

 

[Embracetophats]

Kojirou was explicitly stated to use the Kaleidoscope though. If you want to say Ishtar is using the Blue, you are gonna need scans saying as much.

Time travel is also kaleidoscope.

Touko even says as such. That is why she thought it didnt make any sense for Aoko to have time powers

 

[AnonymousBlank]

You still haven't presented the scan saying Ishtar uses a True Magic

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I think it makes more sense that the speed of the shot cannot be quantified since it travels through time while it travels through space. Thus, there is no way to properly deduce the time frame of the attack. I guess it would be Unknown speed via her NP

 

[Embracetophats]

You still haven't presented the scan saying Ishtar uses a True Magic

Time travel and teleportation are literally in the realm of True Magic.

Why do you think Medea gets so much praise?


"While she is from the Age of Gods when True Magic was common, she is incompatible with the "Five True Magics of the Modern Era", and she would be unable to learn them.[11] She does display T¤ü╬┐¤ê╬▒ (Trofa) (þ®║ÚûôÞ╗óþº╗ÒâêÒâ¡ÒéñÒéó, Kükan Ten'iToroia?), a Spatial Transportatio spell that is an imitation of the True Magic governing teleportation much like the teleportation granted by Command Spells. She can use it while in her territory, but she also displays the ability to teleport throughout the rest of the town as she wishes."

 

[Embracetophats]

additional info, but in the story, there is a good time gap between ishtar activating her NP and people even realising that it is coming and the shockwaves from its travel being felt. It is long enough for Gil to give a speech. Such a thing shouldnt be possible if the meteor didnt actually make the travel and just appeared there.


In fact, in Babylonia they were already in the age of gods so there would be no reason for Ishtar to use time travel there to access venus either

But anyway, back to this and the initial starting question

 

[Embracetophats]

I think it makes more sense that the speed of the shot cannot be quantified since it travels through time while it travels through space. Thus, there is no way to properly deduce the time frame of the attack. I guess it would be Unknown speed via her NP

Cant we use the timeframe from her animation or the timeframe from her usage of it in Babylonia?