Is this Outerversal?

[Iaakk]

So basiclly, it's multiple. But let's first start off with the basics. the afterlife has no concept of time in Dragon Ball, and since time and space cannot be dissociated, it means there is also no concept of space correct? And there are statements that state that the Afterlife transcends dimensionality, and has "cho" and "jigen" within it which means this so would that be outer?

Adding on to cho-jigen, there are tons of super-dimensional statements or cho-jigen stuff which means beyond dimensionality

And finally, the Afterlife deals with metaphysics

One last thing, Goku's power is stated to be mathematically unmeasurable, so does that make him High Outerversal?

 

[Excellence616]

No

 

[Railgun]

No

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

No

 

[SweetDao]

No

 

[ImmortalDread]

No

 

[Dereck03]

No

 

[Brogeefrong]

So basiclly, it's multiple. But let's first start off with the basics. the afterlife has no concept of time or space in Dragon Ball, and since time and space cannot be dissociated, it means there is also no concept of space correct?

being above concepts do not grant outerversal on this wiki

And there are statements that state that the Afterlife transcends dimensionality, and has "cho" and "jigen" within it which means this so would that be outer?

with recent revisions for outerversal, transcending dimensions no longer grants outerversal, and on this wiki, transcending dimensional tiering isn't outer

Adding on to cho-jigen, there are tons of super-dimensional statements or cho-jigen stuff which means beyond dimensionality

what i said before

And finally, the Afterlife deals with metaphysics

I don't think metaphysical things grant outer

One last thing, Goku's power is stated to be mathematically unmeasurable, so does that make him High Outerversal?

Any character that is Low 2-C or higher can technically qualify to be mathematically unmeasurable in strength

 

[Georredannea15]

Nah.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Cho-jigen (hyperdimensional/superdimensional) just means greater than 3 spatial dimensions and in the case of the afterlife it refers to its nature as a spiritual realm.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

And finally, the Afterlife deals with metaphysics

One last thing, Goku's power is stated to be mathematically unmeasurable, so does that make him High Outerversal?

Also these scans are from a tabletop RPG book written by Mike Pondsmith lol so not canon.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

No

 

[Iaakk]

Can you please give an explanation (detailed works best) why because more than half the comments just said "No" and that's it

 

[Iaakk]

Cho-jigen (hyperdimensional/superdimensional) just means greater than 3 spatial dimensions and in the case of the afterlife it refers to its nature as a spiritual realm.

Proof? Look at the scan I posted.

 

[Iaakk]

being above concepts do not grant outerversal on this wiki

Why not? If your above the concept of space your above any qulafible dimension there is regardless of High 1-B.
And is what I said even mean being above concepts?

with recent revisions for outerversal, transcending dimensions no longer grants outerversal, and on this wiki, transcending dimensional tiering isn't outer

When was that stated? I read the FAQ and that was never the case for the legit concepts and dimensionality as a whole?

what i said before

I don't think metaphysical things grant outer

Why not?

Any character that is Low 2-C or higher can technically qualify to be mathematically unmeasurable in strength

It is stated they want to put it into numbers for simplicty, and even if this was somehow not true, they still outright state they are beyond mathematical measure so a mere contradiction in showing power levels being finite is not enough to disprove anything

Not to mention toryiama even states that plot and overall simplcity is favored over logic and physics, so an outright blatant statement is counted as true even if it is contradicted elswhere

so for example, goku’s base form currently would be beyond mathematical measure which would mean nothingin mathematics can qualify his power level which means all sets are not able to quanitfy goku’s power and his power is completely beyond set theory since set theory is apart of mathmatics

 

[Deagonx]

If your above the concept of space your above any qulafible dimension there is regardless of High 1-B.

We only treat being above the concept of dimensions as granting a single layer of transcendence beyond what the verse is shown to have. We don't extrapolate to infinity.

Why not?

Why would they?

they still outright state they are beyond mathematical measure so a mere contradiction in showing power levels being finite is not enough to disprove anything

The phrase "no way to mathematically measure the increase in power" isn't going to affirm any specific tier without a feat.

 

[Iaakk]

We only treat being above the concept of dimensions as granting a single layer of transcendence beyond what the verse is shown to have. We don't extrapolate to infinity.

I don't understand, isn't being above the concept of dimensions beyond any form of dimensions regardless of High 1-B? And do you have proof for this? When was it stated in the FAQ?

Why would they?

Because it handles abstract concepts like time and space. And how would this fair with CSAP?

The phrase "no way to mathematically measure the increase in power" isn't going to affirm any specific tier without a feat.

Why not?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

No

 

[Kroneii1]

No xd

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I don't understand, isn't being above the concept of dimensions beyond any form of dimensions regardless of High 1-B? And do you have proof for this? When was it stated in the FAQ

The definition of a concept is an abstract essence that shapes a part of reality. If a verse has 11 dimensions, the concept of space-time is 11-D by default because that’s what the concept shapes.

Just so we’re clear, you are aware that there are different kinds of concepts, many of which aren’t even transcendent of reality, and not all concepts are Platonic in nature, right?

And as for that “Goku transcends mathematics scan,” bruh….. Toriyama saying their increases in power can’t be measured mathematically doesn’t mean Goku is above cardinals, it means he stopped using power levels.

 

[Iaakk]

The definition of a concept is an abstract essence that shapes a part of reality. If a verse has 11 dimensions, the concept of space-time is 11-D.

No? It is "an idea or mental picture of a group or class of objects formed by combining all their aspects."

Just so we’re clear, you are aware that there are different kinds of concepts, many of which aren’t even transcendent of reality, and not all concepts are Platonic in nature, right?

Yes, I am referring to simply transcending the concepts of time and space

 

[Brogeefrong]

Why not? If your above the concept of space your above any qulafible dimension there is regardless of High 1-B.
And is what I said even mean being above concepts?

The concept of space-time is only as high as the verse has shown, and dragon ball has only shown upto 4-D space at the time of me writing this

When was that stated? I read the FAQ and that was never the case for the legit concepts and dimensionality as a whole?

As far as I'm aware I don't know when the outerversal/concept changes were made, but if i had to guess, it's cause even if you are beyond dimensionality you can still be viewed as fiction, something along the same lines for concepts, you can view concepts as fiction, ergo can not be 1-A by default

It is stated they want to put it into numbers for simplicty, and even if this was somehow not true, they still outright state they are beyond mathematical measure so a mere contradiction in showing power levels being finite is not enough to disprove anything

I mean Low 2-C+ is beyond mathematical measurement, since it is a unquantifiable infinity

 

[Deagonx]

Because it handles abstract concepts like time and space.

Why would that make it Outer?

Why not?

Why would it?

 

[Iaakk]

The concept of space-time is only as high as the verse has shown, and dragon ball has only shown upto 4-D space at the time of me writing this

but doesn’t concept mean all aspects of that idea, or all aspects of space?

As far as I'm aware I don't know when the outerversal/concept changes were made, but if i had to guess, it's cause even if you are beyond dimensionality you can still be viewed as fiction, something along the same lines for concepts, you can view concepts as fiction, ergo can not be 1-A by default

If you transcend the concept of space you are beyond any form of dimensionality and High 1-B structure? And can you give me the threads at the very least? And what about CSAP, would it be Outerversal there?

I mean Low 2-C+ is beyond mathematical measurement, since it is a unquantifiable

But I mean sets and more not being able to qualify for goku‘s power

 

[Iaakk]

Why would that make it Outer?

Why would it not?

Why would it?

Why?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Bruh… I’m one of the greatest DB wankers known to man, and even I’m at a loss for words.

1. Are you just going to ignore where I explained to you that not all concepts are platonic in nature, and some aren’t even transcendent of reality? It’s only platonic concepts that are transcendent of reality in a 1-A manner like you’re trying to describe, and even then, we don’t accept 1-A Platonism here.

2. DBS characters don’t transcend math, that’s nonsense. Toriyama saying you can’t mathematically measure their increases in power in later arcs is literally just him saying that power levels got messy to keep using, wtf?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Yeah asking to prove a negative, cherry-picking statements out of context from different mediums (with one of them being non-canon), making massive leaps in logic while ignoring all the contradictions it entails and using outdated exaggerated scaling standards from over a decade ago that heavily rely on the name fallacy (concepts, metaphysics, transcendent, etc) without actual concrete feats and consistency to back it up. This is all screams appeal to belief imo.

No version of Goku will be High 1-A on this wiki period. It's hard enough already to convince others of Low 1-C DBH/Xenoverse here let alone the actual canon timeline.

The OP question and replies plus multiple answers simply being "no" just proves Dragon Ball fans won't be free of their (somewhat deserved in the past) negative rep in the power scaling community anytime soon.

 

[Deagonx]

Why would it not?

We don't just assume any old thing is Outer. You would need to provide an actual argument.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

put this shit in fun and games

 

[Qawsedf234]

isn't being above the concept of dimensions beyond any form of dimensions regardless of High 1-B? And do you have proof for this? When was it stated in the FAQ?

Its been on there for years afaik

Q: What tier is transcending space and time?​

A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.

It is perfectly possible for a statement like transcending space and time to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. It's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." Transcend space and time can also refer to a spacetime continuum being different to a "regular" spacetime continuum (Say, a strange-looking reality that may hold a few different physical laws, for example) or slightly do be more complex than a regular universe, even significantly so, but not qualitatively superior. Something A being said to "transcend" something B in real life can refer to the former being superior to the latter in some qualities in a notable way, but still roughly compatible. It does not necessarily mean transcendence not in an immeasurable way that would be graphically indescribable, such as A's qualities being superior to B by infinite amounts. With this in mind, statements of realities or beings with transcendence over space & time/the universe/etc., on their own, are not assumed to refer to qualitatively superiority, unless of course further context may elaborate on and contextualize this.

It should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them, and would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality or Nonexistent Physiology. A good example of a case like this is Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe), who is stated to exist in a realm "far beyond time," yet never actually displays any superiority over it, and is in fact vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature.

Q: What tier is transcending dimensions?​

A: As specified above, a "dimension" is nothing more than a set of values representing a given direction within a system, and a multi-dimensional space can itself be thought of as a multiplication of several "copies" of these sets. For instance, the 3-dimensional space in which we live is often visualized as the set of all 3-tuples of real numbers (Thus, taking its values from the real number line, R), and is thus the result of the iterated multiplication: R x R x R = R³, likewise, 4-dimensional space is the set of all 4-tuples of real numbers, and is thus equal to R x R x R x R = R⁴, and so on and so forth.

Practically speaking, this means that there is no limit for the number of dimensions which a space can have whatsoever, and one can construct spaces whose dimension corresponds to any cardinal number, including the infinite ones mentioned above. It is not even necessary for us to restrict ourselves to values taken from the real numbers, either: It is also possible to define the space of all n-tuples of cardinal numbers (Which takes its values from V, the class of all sets)

As a result, it is not at all feasible to take any statements involving a character existing "beyond dimensions" at face value, as this would lead to extremely inflated ratings largely dependent on No-Limits Fallacies. Therefore, such descriptors are to be evaluated while taking into account the number of dimensions which the verse has been shown to entertain; for example, a character stated to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context.

Q: What tier does a character being beyond dimensions equate to?​

A: This would need to be evaluated similar to statements about transcending space and time. If the character is beyond dimensions in the sense of being qualitatively superior to them then they should be only one level of qualitative superiority above however many dimensions the verse is known to have. This is because such a statement would usually refer to the dimensions that the verse has, and not include theoretical dimensions.

Such statements are only dimensions +1.

To get 1-A you would need to prove the cosmology contains an Aleph-1 space first.

 

[Iaakk]

Its been on there for years afaik



Such statements are only dimensions +1.

To get 1-A you would need to prove the cosmology contains an Aleph-1 space first.

That doesn't prove it's referring to the concepts themselves? And doesn't it just say dimensions?

 

[Iaakk]

Bruh… I’m one of the greatest DB wankers known to man, and even I’m at a loss for words.

1. Are you just going to ignore where I explained to you that not all concepts are platonic in nature, and some aren’t even transcendent of reality? It’s only platonic concepts that are transcendent of reality in a 1-A manner like you’re trying to describe, and even then, we don’t accept 1-A Platonism here.

Then what des transcending the concepts of time and space mean?

 

[Iaakk]

We don't just assume any old thing is Outer. You would need to provide an actual argument.

Why would in this case metaphsyics not be outer?

 

[Qawsedf234]

That doesn't prove it's referring to the concepts themselves?

Being above a concept just means you're one layer above said object without more evidence. Which is still just +1.

And doesn't it just say dimensions?

I included multiple examples that wasn't just dimensions. Its anything to prevent NLFs from being a thing.

Why would in this case metaphsyics not be outer?

Because it doesn't meet our qualifications for an Aleph-2 space.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Then what des transcending the concepts of time and space mean?

At this point for tiering system/FAQ purposes it's just pointless semantics so it doesn't really matter. It doesn't have to be directly stated in FAQ that "Transcending concepts of time and space isn't 1-A" otherwise you could also just say that it also isn't 1-A because FAQ doesn't say "Transcending concepts of time and space is 1-A".

 

[Deagonx]

Why would in this case metaphsyics not be outer?

Again, you've got it backwards. You must provide a solid argument for it being that, not just asking everyone else why it wouldn't.

 

[Iaakk]

Being above a concept just means you're one layer above said object without more evidence. Which is still just +1.

"Without more evidence" wdym by that?

I included multiple examples that wasn't just dimensions. Its anything to prevent NLFs from being a thing.

It states "beyond dimensions" to be a NLF, not beyond dimensionality or concepts?

 

[Deagonx]

"Without more evidence" wdym by that?

There would need to be solid and direct evidence within the verse that the transcendence in question applies to an infinite regression of additional layers.

It states "beyond dimensions" to be a NLF, not beyond dimensionality or concepts?

The same principle applies. We will generally never have a character skyrocket to the highest tier through statements like that.

 

[Iaakk]

The same principle applies. We will generally never have a character skyrocket to the highest tier through statements like that.

But that was never stated in the FAQ to be that? And again is what I said even mean transcending the concepts, just ignore 1-A.

 

[Deagonx]

But that was never stated in the FAQ to be that? And again is what I said even mean transcending the concepts, just ignore 1-A.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Can you be more specific?