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Instant Death Revisions Part 1

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PhantomØ4 said:
By the way, @Gemstic , would you say ID’s potency scales to Yogiri’s true form power? It’s just the manifestation of its power, right?
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Yes, ID's potency certainly scales to Yogiri's True Form. Instead of saying the death hax we have seen is "a manifestation of its power", it'd be better to call it "a manifestation of its nature". What we see as a death hax is actually just 'The End' imposing its meaning on anything it wants (it seems to be working on the principle that so long as something 'exists', no matter in what form, it should naturally have an 'end'), which effectively "ceases the existence of the targeted person/thing/concept/phenomenon/existence forever". This is also why even if something 'killed' by ID has some form of regeneration (including High-Godly), it'd be totally useless due to the state of 'existence has ended' imposed on it (you need a higher tier AP or hax to avoid being put in such a state); growing new organs or concept would not help as they won't function at all due to the very meaning of their existence being kept in an 'ended condition'. It is a power that would work even against those that deny or nullify all supernatural things (for ex., Imagine Breaker), as beginning and end are some of the most fundamental and natural aspects of the world.
 
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"growing new organs or concept would not help as they won't function at all due to the very meaning of their existence being kept in an 'ended condition'"44

^^Now this is something I wholeheartedly agree with, regen isn't too useful if your body comes back unable to function.
 
  1. I have some things I have some views that will take large posts on Low 1-C, Regeneration (Low-Godly) for Sages, Conceptual Manipulation, Abstract Existence, Acasuality, Fear Manipulation & Madness Manipulation(; I am kind of busy but I will reply tomorrow after I got the time.
I think just tier 2-A is just fine; I think the other things look fine.
 
  1. Fear Manipulation & Madness Manipulation(for his true form):
    1. I was checking Fear Manipulation & Madness Manipulation; I think they could be legit. Madness Manipulation should be type 3, in my opinion.

  2. There is a conceptual hierarchy of worlds, a flow of power from the top to the bottom. When moving from the world above to the world below, you only need to fall down, but to move up, you need enough energy to go against the flow. It seems that in the world's hierarchical structure, this world is located at the bottom. Therefore, it would take a lot of energy to return to the world of Yogiri and the others.
    1. The way it is described, it seems like hierarchy isn't really transcendent but just adjacent just in the bottom to up manner since Yogiri's world which is a higher level doesn't look to be. I don't see the evidence that Yogiri (true form) transcends the Sea; it seems like it would exist at the end of everything and would unaffected by the destruction of everything. I don't think Low 1-C is legit.
  3. Immortality (Type 8) & Regeneration(Low-Godly):
    1. Is the stone physical or metaphysical? In this context, I think the source of the regeneration doesn't really matter just the feat of regeneration's feat itself as describe by the Low-Godly definition. In this case, if the character can't regenerate from complete physical destruction then I don't see the feat as Low-Godly. I see a case where X regeneration show and Immortality type 8 similar to some Homunculus in Fullmetal Alchemist.
      1. Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead of restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.
  4. I do share some of Gemstic's views on Abstract Existence Type 1:
    1. I think Yogiri's true form has abstract existence type 1; it exists is akin to the phenomenon like the End or Death that is omnipresent through existence.
  5. Conceptual Manipulation type 2 looks fine, to me.
 
The stone is physical but you cant reach it by destroying the entire body.

The low-godly comes from this:

"Die!"

The hero shouted at the top of his lungs and the prison of light shone even brighter than before. However, after a single flash it was already over. The light ceased and everything was gone. The small blades the hero had used for the spell, the straight sword that looked like it had been plucked out of a legend, the beastman that was rolling around on the floor, and Lain. The produced heat must have been immense, for even the floor had started to melt and glow like lava.

"Ariel... I've finally... ...taken down the first..."

The hero mumbled something as he lost the strength in his feet and fell to his knees. He put so much into that one attack he could hardly even stand.

"How... how do we even treat a case like this?"

"What do you mean!? Of course the killing of a Sage is a major crime! We must immediately arrest him!"

Edelgard's usual habit of acting before thinking made George want to lie down and curl up next to the hero. No matter how weakened he may be, they had no chance of arresting a hero. George looked over to the feudal lord at the other side of the room with a gaze that said

"If you're an acolyte of sages then can't you do something about this?," but Masahiko vehemently shook his head. The responding gaze was equally vocal:

"No way."

"So is this Ariel your dead lover or something?"

But there wasn't anything for George or Masahiko to do. Just like she did all those times before, Lain stood in her spot anew. Despair warped the hero's face.

"...How... ...did you escape...?"

"I didn't. Why would I if I can't be killed anyways?"

"...This can't be... even Sword Saint Kartena was tracelessly erased by this heat, there shouldn't have been anything left of you..."

As a matter of fact, Lain truly was entirely eradicated by that attack.

"I wouldn't be having such a hard time if I could die just by burning to utter nothingness. Honestly you might as well think about this degree of immortality as a curse, I don't even want to think about how much longer I'll live."
Click to expand...
 
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I don’t get where the low-godly correlating to Lain comes from, that’s kinda supposed to be her quality and that feat was done in a scene that was demonstrating it. We later see ofc that her regen is attached to her type 9.

the conceptual hierarchy wasn’t being used to justify transcendence either.
 
Yeah, the Low 1-C is more like because Yogiri predates the Sea and is unbound by it + is imperceptible and incomprehensible from the perspective of 4-D beings like the HRE.
 
Ok, Low-Godly seems fine; the case looks similar to Aizen's case.

Also, I almost forgot; I think the Acausality is type 4 for now, from the evidence.
I won't lie most of the statements are option 2 and the link regarding HRE looks to be option 4. This table below explained that it view fate, plot, and the like as less than a Joke. I am kind of interested in the Goddess's evidence regarding the one who perceives causality but couldn't perceive for Yogiri's true form; it could have work as good evidence for Acausality type 5.
“"That is a dead end.
That is the ending point for the fate of each and everything, and there's nothing beyond that. The end of everything has assumed the form of a human being.

It is precisely because that is 'The End', that thing would be present till the very end of everything in existence. It is impossible for anything to go beyond that.

In a front of such a thing, Fate, Plot, and the like are less than a joke. It would be the definition of idiocy to even think of fighting such an existence.

It is said that can kill the target with just a thought.

When she first heard of it, it sounded really stupid to her. She thought it only appeared so because of the great difference in the strength between the target and the killer.

She thought there should be some kind of trick to that ability. She was under the impression that once she is done with unraveling and analyzing the ability, she would be able to come up with a counterplan and deal with it one way or another with her own ability.

However, she couldn't have been any more naïve.

She finally realized after personally taking a look.

No matter what it is, it'd die if that wishes so. There is no thing or phenomenon that would be allowed to exist if it was denied by that."		„
 
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PhantomØ4 said:
I don’t get where the low-godly correlating to Lain comes from, that’s kinda supposed to be her quality and that feat was done in a scene that was demonstrating it. We later see ofc that her regen is attached to her type 9.

the conceptual hierarchy wasn’t being used to justify transcendence either.
Click to expand...
I just saw this point, after my reply. I thought that the regeneration would scale to all the Sages and not be something special to Lain. I guess my views is the regeneration of feat average sage have + immortality type 8 from my old point, then.

I guess the accepted point can be applied, Oblivion.
 
Alright, thanks

Btw, I found the goddess feat:

How long had she been frozen.

　Malna, who had been lying on her face, slowly raised her face.

　Her words reminded her of Yogiri's ability to kill instantly, but she still couldn't believe it.

　She didn't know what had happened.

　Without any warning, Rilna is down.

　Nothing should have happened, but Rilna has stopped.

　Yogiri is not doing anything.

　Objectively, he just said the words, "You die," and that's it.

　There was no power emanating from his body, nor was there any indication that anything had acted on Rilna's body.

　And yet, Rilna has stopped moving.

　Malna could not find a relation to causality from Yogiri there.

　Even with God's eyes, she couldn't see anything.

　Yogiri wanted her to die, and the next moment, Rilna stopped moving. That was all, and there was no connection between those two facts as if there was no connection between them.

　Therefore, it is impossible to understand that Yogiri's power of instant death.

　It's impossible.
Click to expand...
 
@Elizhaa

The Gods are basically extremely higher-order beings that possess divine authority, and they are omnipotent and omniscient in their territory. They are also the only ones that can prevent a Heavenly Record from being eaten by a Heavenly Record Eater (HRE).

Due to their inherent nature and the authority of omnipotence and omniscience, they can also see metaphysical things.
Causality is one of the things they can naturally perceive, and as they themselves have type 4 acausality, they would be able to see causality if another person has the same type of acausality as them, especially when something is happening right before their eyes.

For example, even if Boxer A (->have type 4 acausality) can't put up a fight against Boxer B because the opponent is way faster and stronger than them (->have way stronger type 4 acausality), Boxer A will still be able to see or sense Boxer B's actions and movements to some extent as they're still in the same weight class (->have same type of acausality [type 4]). Even if Boxer A has to fight the Boxers from a higher weight class, it doesn't mean they won't be able to see any move of their opponent, unless the other Boxer is someone that has fully transcended the limits of humans (->completely transcended causality, and thus have type 5 acausality). Similarly, if it was only a matter of True Form's type 4 acausality being stronger than others, they would still be able to 'see' or 'perceive' the causality at least a bit, even if they couldn't resist its power due to the degree of their own type 4 acausality being inferior.

The fact that they can't see/perceive anything at all shows that the type of acausality that the True Form has is totally outside causality itself (which would be type 5 acausality).

We should also seriously take into consideration that the narrative itself clearly stated that Instant Death (It) is even beyond Causality:

It was completely imperceptible, and therefore it was impossible to know how to shake it off.

It was so unreasonable that it was beyond even causality itself. No matter how far back in past one goes, it could not overturn the determined event.
Click to expand...

There is also this statement from Meta-perspective:

In a front of such a thing, Fate, Plot, and the like are less than a joke. It would be the definition of idiocy to even think of fighting such an existence.
Click to expand...
This means that Yogiri is beyond Fate, Plot, etc.

Combining the above two statements, we get: Yogiri's 'True Form' is beyond Causality, Fate, Plot, and the like.

When we evaluate these statements while considering the things I have explained above, there seems to be decent evidence for Acausality type 5.
 
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  1. What about ae type 2 for yogiri's human form? I think that's legit.
    1. I am neutral. You can ask for more inputs if you want.
  2. Yeah, the Low 1-C is more like because Yogiri predates the Sea and is unbound by it + is imperceptible and incomprehensible from the perspective of 4-D beings like the HRE.
    1. I would argue I still don't see transcendence. I can be fine with type 5 causality couple with the recent quotes. Things like fate, plot, and like are less than a joke to it; it would exist fine without it after it destroys those concepts, from option 2 statements. The narrative explains it was so imperceptible that it was beyond cause and effect. A goddess who specialized in seeing the relation of causality couldn't perceive Yogiri's true form.
    2. I will be honest, I think those are some of the most solid statements on acausality type 5 that I saw. If some want to bring up verses that are tier 1-A as counterpoints, many of those characters got it from the consequences that the old 1-A definitions which basically describe those being as unbounded by such concepts; I believe there are talks that many of 1-A and up could have it their acausality downgrade.
      1. Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system. Even interacting with them normally may prove virtually impossible.
I would be fine with type 5 causality but I think more staff inputs would be needed on it. I know Ultima is a staff familiar with type 5 causality; SomebodyData looks to also be familiar with the topic.
 
@Elizhaa

Are you all right with raising the tier of the verse itself to Low 1-C though? (as the 'Sea' is clearly more than infinite times greater than a single (4D) universe: it contains an infinite number of them, and there's also enough gap in between each and every universe in the form of 'void' which is used by beings like HRE to travel through the 'Sea' [->It is to be noted that just the mouth of an HRE alone is big enough to swallow a universe at least, and its body size is big enough to store multiple universes inside. This means that there's at least a gap of multiple universes in between each heavenly record (universe) = a universe is already infinitesimal in size compared to the 'Sea', but the overall size of the 'Sea' is big enough to accomodate even more sets of infinity = The size of a universe is 'at the least' smaller by multiple degrees of 'infinity' in comparison to the 'Sea' = at least Infinitely, Infinitely, Infinitely, Infinitely, Infinitely, Infinitely smaller than 'infinitesimal']) That would affect the 'Range' parameter, even if the AP remains as 2-A (since Yogiri's True Form is omnipresent and exists even in the entire 'Sea' outside the infinite universes).

Also, would it be fine to mention at least 2-A, likely Far Higher (if low 1-c is fine for the verse: at least 2-a, likely low 1-c)? After all, it seems the only thing we're lacking for Low 1-C (AP) is an undeniable proof that shows that the True Form 'transcend' the 'Sea'.
 
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The 2-A has already been applied. We're now waiting to see if Yogiri can be low 1-C and if he can have acausality type 5
 
I mean, you can just read the thread but eh. He's beyond the scope of an infinite conceptual hierarchy of heavenly records, and he's also incomprehensible to 4-D beings.
 
Rikimarox2 said:
I mean, you can just read the thread but eh. He's beyond the scope of an infinite conceptual hierarchy of heavenly records, and he's also incomprehensible to 4-D beings.
Click to expand...
Mmmm so you are saying that his true form exist on a higher dimensional plane of existence then HRE? If yes then that's 100% 5D
 
@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless

Some more additions to Yogiri's profile:-

Resistance to Power Nullification: The Invincible Corps could neutralize all kinds of powers (due to the armor).
The Battle God had resistance to and could neutralize tons of things including Reality Warping, Causality Manipulation, Conceptual attacks.

Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation: The Goddess Malna tried to alter his concept of life to death.

Resistance against Spatial Manipulation and BFR:

-Sometimes, the user cannot affect people or objects, but they fold space onto itself, making the object take 2 different places at once. Examples include teleportation, causing wormholes, summoning, creating pocket dimensions and universes, etc.-

Alice used her ultimate ability 'Another Kingdom' that manipulates space to create another dimension, and BFR's the target/s.

Resistance to Soul Manipulation: He is just an Avatar.

Invulnerability (for the true form): Due to being immune to damage from conventional weaponry.

Resistance to Resistance Negation: As Mei Punch is able to 100% annihilate the target, it should have both durability negation and Resistance Negation to work as intended.

Also, because Sion uses her spatial manipulation in several ways, it'd be better to add 'Teleportation' to her profile as well (to make it clear that she also possesses such an ability).
 
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Yogiri shouldn't get resistance to powernull based on that since The Corps's and BattleGod's powernull were just 3-D to my knowledge. Yogiri just overpowered them via higher-d hax

Did she actually try to do that? I forgot

I suppose that works, but I was thinking more of spatial manip for yogiri since he can kill dimensions and space

Neutral on soul manip

I mean, higher-d thing already does this by default

Teleportation is already included for Sion
 
I mean, we assume everyone has a soul unless stated otherwise for what I remember, unless there are exceptions like when u embody a concept or soemthing idk
 
We dont have enough evidence for resistance negation in Mei's case. It needs to directly state that it bypasses resistance or feats of doing it
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
We dont have enough evidence for resistance negation in Mei's case. It needs to directly state that it bypasses resistance or feats of doing it
Click to expand...
I get what you mean, but if her power can't bypass the resistance of the target (which would be 'negating' it), there's no way for it to work with 100% probability. That's a plain and simple deduction based on the ability.
 
Gemstic said:
I get what you mean, but if her power can't bypass the resistance of the target (which would be 'negating' it), there's no way for it to work with 100% probability. That's a plain and simple deduction based on the ability.
Click to expand...
I mean, if they resist the 100% thing then they resist it. Thats why Yogiri get resistance from that
 
TOAAPRESENCE1 said:
That's why I said I am not sure if people like that are also assume to have a soul or not
Click to expand...
Yeah, no one knows unless specifically mentioned, but it'd be more 'plausible' for such things to be without a soul, objectively speaking. (how they're treated depends on the series in the end)

But since Aoi herself said that "it is not even a living thing" (so we don't even need to speculate whether he is a living being or not), I'm more inclined to believe that the avatar is without a soul.
 
Also, it was not Malna but Rulna, the one who died (got confused by the name for a moment).

I suppose that works, but I was thinking more of spatial manip for yogiri since he can kill dimensions and space
Click to expand...
It would work for everything: spatial manipulation, resistance against it, and since the power force you away to someplace else - resistance against BFR.
 
Oh, I thought it was done already. Just checked that you have included 'teleportation' in your first post.
 
@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless

Because I agree with your previous reasoning and opinion, here's more to consider:

Resistance to Power Nullification: The Gods can fight HRE (a 4-D existence), so as ID is also 4-D, overpowering via higher-d hax won't work here. Now, coming to the main point, the two guys who were hired by the angels to kill Yogiri were strong enough to kill beings such as Gods, and it was clearly mentioned that one of them (and other leaders in his crew) could 'use' as well as 'nullify' many hax-level powers including Instant Death, Attack Reflection, Time Stop, Time Reverse, Spatial Cut, Existence Erasure, Conceptual attack, Causality Erasure. This should be enough for getting the resistance to power nullification I think.

Resistance to Soul Manipulation: Ester (one of the other people who live in the SCP foundation-esque research establishment) has the ability of "the most beautiful in the world" (basically Chimera from To Aru). Her 'beautiful ability' is so intrusive that everyone listens to what she says, even inanimate things (an 'electronic lock' will open if she asks it to do so). This means that her power directly manipulates the core or essence of the target, which are mind, soul and concept. Furthermore, since she influences you just by being close to her and make you feel 'that' way, it also seems to have emphatic manipulation. Kid Yogiri was able to resist her perfectly, so he should naturally get resistance to such things as well.

Addition of Sense Manipulation: He can remotely take over the 'sight' of the target to kill everyone else other than the hostage. That is what he did when Asaka was kidnapped during his childhood days.

Also, we do know for sure that when he isn't keeping his 'nature' (it's not magic, skill or anything of the sort) firmly sealed (which would be the case in a Vs battle), just looking at his blurred video or picture would kill you automatically (and therefore, use of any sort of info-analysis, precognition, prediction of actions, etc. against him is an even bigger no-no). Does this translate into some sort of ability or resistance as well? Otherwise, we'd have to mention it every time it is required. The difference between this and having plain resistance against something is that you'd be auto-killed for making the attempt in this case.

Furthermore, like I mentioned before, since the death hax is just a result of the 'nature' of the existence (there was never a case of him 'actually' releasing some kind of 'power'), it should have (unconventional) resistance to things like Power Nullification, Power Mimicry, Power Absorption, and the like (unless the opponent has performed the feat of nullifying, mimicking, absorbing the 'nature' of a Type 1 AE that is at the level of Type 2 Concepts).

As for Regeneration Negation, it has already worked on Low-Godly ones and we might very well see him dealing with the remaining two in the future, as there's even stronger beings out there. For the time being, the other two types would be dealt with ceasing every function of the opponent and keeping them 'passively' in a 'psuedo-dead' state (as the death manipulation/existence erasure of ID is an eternal 24/7 passive that makes sure that the target never recovers).
 
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Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
Now, this might be a stretch, but since Yogiri's true form is beyond the scope of the infinite conceptual hierarchy of heavenly records (as well as being a transcendent concept), plus being impercetible/incomprehensible from the pov of 4-D beings, this could probably give him Low 1-C (or possibly Low 1-C). Im not so sure about that myself, though. Take it with a grain of salt.
Click to expand...
Where is any of that suggested, though? All those excerpts say is that his true form existed before all of existence and will eventually outlive it, since he's "the end of everything" personified. None of that indicates Yoguri's abstract form completely transcends the multiverse or anything like that, which is what Low 1-C would imply in this case.

Acausality seems fine for him, though.
 
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