Injustice: Revisions Amogus (Volume 1)

[TypeOU]

Introduction​

So the Injustice movie was very bad, made me want to re-read the comics. I did so and noticed some discrepancies. I want to fix them. This is Part One of a several Part revision to fix the Injustice verse and it's a pretty damn big one my guys. So sit back and enjoy the ride.

Attack Potency​

Scaling Superman: As Good as Steel​

Introductions​

So currently everyone relevant in the verse is listed as Low 6-B scaling from Injustice Superman who, in turn, rocked the planet Apokalips with debilitating earthquakes in a fight with Darkseid during the third act of Injustice: Year 4. There are two problems with this, the timeframe and the current meta relying entirely upon Superman.

Timeframe Blues​

Firstly, while the feat itself is fine, there’s caveats we need to address first. Namely that we have no idea of a timeframe for the planet being shaken. We see the fight begin in Year Four, 21 and I’d note there’s no massive environmental damage being output initially between Uxas and the Man of Steel, obviously the AOE Fallacy would come into play here but that’s not all. We see Harley, Billy Batson and Queen Hippolyta of Themyscira escape using a Mother-Box, teleporting to the Himalayas and being shown Zeus shattering religious locales and symbols and then make contact with Wonder Woman and Batman, using the jet to fly manually to the Himalayas.

Happening concurrently is the huge fight between the Dark God and Man of Steel, which is shown to have started birthing ground tremors but we don’t see any statements of the whole planet shaking until the next issue when we get DeSaad’s internal monologue. This notably takes place an unquantifiable amount of time later and we later cut to New Genesis where we first get mention of the planet being at risk from a core de-stabilization. I am, admittedly, mostly just recounting events but it’s all for a good cause. That being, to illustrate that we see several cuts over the course of the fight; far too many for us to assume the world shaking took place over a short enough period of time to just make part of their standard Attack Potency.

I’d also note that this feat is not only performed only by the combined efforts of Superman and Darkseid, but also that it’s several magnitudes above the next best feats (that a base, non Sinestro Corps Supes) scales to or performs (we’ll focus on the feats below). This, reasonably, would force us take the Apokalips feat with a much more substantial grain of salt then what we currently do. To summarize what we have here is a feat that:

• Is magnitudes above the next best feats the top tiers have (not god tiers like Trigon or Mxy)
• Is done by two, incredibly powerful characters clashing
• Is over a questionable period of time

There’s just far too many holes within the feat itself for it to be anything to base a tiering on. At most we could rework it into being part of a “likely far higher” justification but that’s up to the discretion of the community and its staff (I’d note Batman mentions him shifting a moon so we could use that). You might be asking what this puts the verse at but I’d advise holding your questions to the end since this neatly leans to our next topic.

A League of his Own​

Superman is, without a doubt, the most iconic superhero of all time, period. When you think of a superhero what do you think of? The secret identities, the powers, the capes, the hope and moral fibre? All of that comes from him and the entire premise of Injustice, “what if Superman had one bad day?”, is based solely upon his role as a larger than life staple of pop culture. You might ask why I’m hyping him up so much - I’m not a huge fan of his (All Might is better lmao) so this feels weird right? The answer to that is because Injustice does the same.

Injustice routinely classifies Superman as the backbone of the DC Universe, he’s the leader (in all but name) of the Justice League, is considered the most moral of them all by Batman, is the world’s most beloved hero and tragically becomes it’s greatest threat. More relevantly to our purpose, this reverence of the character also extends to his direct power. The series regularly states him to be in his own league, showing Supes as having some of the best feats under his belt and that’s not even getting into the statements for Supes having “held back” in the past.

Supes Superiority Showings​

• Crushes the Lords of Chaos’ gem in his grip(Injustice: Year Zero #14)
  • The J.S.A could not break it (Injustice: Year Zero #4)

hardly an AP feat, especially since a character like the spectre couldn't do it either.

• Destroys Hal’s shield in one punch (Injustice: Year One #4)

sure, not a stomp though.

• Shatters Ares’ horn and drops him with one punch (Injustice: Year One #9)

Ares power come from war, in a world with forced peace, he would obviously be much weaker. The first screen comes from year 3 #15 The second Y1 #9

• Punches through the Kraken’s flesh and the Kraken can hold the JL (Injustice: Year One #12)

including superman, who had to get aquaman to stop it. getting through a tentacle that could was only trying to protect arthur vs getting attacked by surprise, it really can't be compared

• Recovered in seconds after Atom’s suicide attack(Injustice: Year One #32)

said atom could match superman, Diana is the only reason atom didn't kill him. he was also definitively not "recovered"

• • This same blast knocked out Diana (Injustice: Year One #33)
  • She was still comatose even a year after (Injustice: Year Two #3)
  • It was unknown if she would ever wake up at one point (Injustice: Year Two #4)
  • She didn’t physically heal until more then a year later (Injustice: Year Three #15)

as shown above, wonder woman basically one shot someone who was overpowering superman, the whole issue really doesn't make superman stronger, at most you could argue that he's more resistant to radioactivity or burns, looking at WW body.

• Absolutely memes Lobo (Injustice: Year One Annual)

Not really a stat stomp, he just carried Lobo from the earth to the sun before he could free himself from superman's grasp

• Smashes Sinestro’s construct (Injustice: Year Two #4)

see Hal

• Breaks Guy Gardner’s arm (Injustice: Year Two #17)

See hal

• Punts Sinestro with a single punch(Injustice: Year Four #10)
  • We see later this knocked him out (Injustice: Year Four #15)

Technically a surprise attack on a lantern.

• Drops Hermes with his Super Breath (Injustice: Year Four #10)
  • Hermes could harm Flash with a physical strike (Injustice: Year Four #10)

speedsters aren't resilient, who would have guessed! Also this really doesn't set superman as stronger, he pushed back someone who could harm Flash. Also this and this

• Catches a punch from Hercules, fights him and laterkills him(Injustice: Year Four # 12 - 13)
  • Hercules drew blood from Wonder Woman with a single strike (Injustice: Year Four #12)
  • Hercules was tearingthrough Hal’s power suit construct (Injustice: Year Four #12)
  • He also stone-walled an attack from Hal (Injustice: Year Four #12)

...
So you're telling me he couldn't take hercules even in a 2v1? And got one punched? And that's supposed to be a feat? When Shazam was actually overpowering Hercules? And Superman only killed by charging at him with a surprise attack? After Hercules gave up on his life following his defeat to Shazam?

• Absolutely demolishes Plastic Man’s son (Injustice: Year Four Annual)

he also beat a thug that one time- Plastic man's son is fodder.

• Catwoman claims no one on Earth can stop Superman (Injustice: Year Five #2)

sounds very dramatic for someone who is repeatably stated to be stoppable by Flash, Martian manhunter, Captain Atom, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Black Adam, Batman and Shazam.

• According to Bane, someone going toe to toe with Superman is rare (Injustice: Year Five #3)

...

• Embarrassed Parasite (Injustice: Year Five #3)

first screen isn't the right one

• Would have killed Flash in one punch if he didn’t move (Injustice: Year Five #27)

Speedster, durability. Also isn't there this whole thing about how speedsters stat enhancement is an active thing?

• Hawkman claims he’s never even seen Superman bleed before he used the Kryptonite Mace (Injustice: Year Five #32)

no, he claims that he doesn't know if he's ever seen superman bleed, for the dramatic effect. Superman has bled tons of times

• Pretty easily beats Hawkman to death after the latter loses the Kryptonite (Injustice: Year Five #32)

Hawkgirl/Hawkman definitively doesn't scale to the rest of the cast.

• Good Supes incapacitates Ares(Injustice; Chapter 1)
  • Alternate depiction (Injustice: Year Five #38)

not a stomp

• Even while fighting Aquaman and Wonder Woman breaks out of “Prime” Hal’s construct(Injustice; Chapter 8)
  • Alternate depiction (Injustice: Ground Zero #16)

they weren't fighting him while he was in the construct, and again, hardly a stomp

• Harley claims Supes ran the world because of his power (Injustice: Ground Zero #16)

So?

• Disables Lex’s suit in one hit (Injustice: Chapter 9)

Lex's suit had a very bad day, including getting stopped by shazam electricity seconds earlier

• His “Prime” counterpart catches Sinestro’s strike easily (Injustice; Chapter 12)

not necessarily easily, and not a stomp.

• He crushes the Helm of Fate in his hands (Injustice 2; Chapter 11)

Again, how would you scale that? With fate being put massively above the rest of the cast and all.

Supes Holding Back​

• Superman mentions he does not want to inflict further harm to the Kraken (Injustice: Year One #12)

how is that holding back? He's just saying he doesn't like doing it.

• Superman mentions “no more holding back” (Injustice: Year One #12)

referring to his morals. He just kidnapped Atlantis.

• Nightwing tells Clark he doesn’t need to hold back against Grundy (Injustice: Year One #16)

Again, morals, because he can't go lethal usually. This should applies to everyone, especially batman's side.

• Batman’s expert opinion is that Diana could kill Clark because he holds back (Injustice: Year Four #)

in a flashback. And specifically refers to superman vs WW. because they are friends.

• Ares outright states that a Superman without restraint could not be fought by the world(Injustice: Year One #)
  • Likely referring to governments but you could argue this applies to superhumans within the world as well

For the holding back part, again, that's before most of his feats, and other heroes should get it too, and it's mostly about morals. Definitively referring to governments

• Supes is willing to do “whatever it takes” in the Tower of Fate fight compared to Year One (Injustice: Year Three #17)

again, I wouldn't call taking atlantis hostage "stopping holding back", not doing it isn't gonna nerf his stats.

• Supes initially held back against Diana in their fight(Injustice: Year Four #9)
  • Diana’s statement in the latter scan could be taken as proof he regularly holds back

for you. They then fight without him holding back, and Diana still wins.

• Supes is mentioned as being more “unrestrained” then in the past by Darkseid (someone who’s fought Supes before) (Injustice: Year Four #22)

again, this isn't about stats.

• Supes claims he held back in the past (Injustice; Chapter 9)
  • Alternate depiction of this scene (Injustice: Ground Zero #17)

here, it's about his no-killing rule.

• He implies he used to hold back before Joker (Injustice 2; Chapter 9)

because he obviously need to go all out to beat the joker. Again, it's about killing.

Changing the Scale​

Introduction​

All of the above is pretty solid evidence that the meta we’re using for the Injustice verse is out of whack and and out of order - what do we do? To fix the verse we need to establish scaling chains for the different classes of characters, gather alternative feats for them and see if we can get calculations for them. Luckily not everyone is exempt from Supes scaling, there’s a decent amount of characters who’d have a strong case.

Supergirl is a fellow Kryptonian with her emergence treated as a significant event and she outright defeats him in combat during the second game, able to pretty easily spar with Wonder Woman (as a rookie to boot) and was capable of shattering chains that bound Ares. The War God even outright claims she’s the only one who can successfully battle the A.M.A.Z.O android. Upon a similar vein is Superman’s clone, Bizarro who should be biologically indistinct from him and was able to fight the High Councillor quite evenly. This, in turn, leads us to the slayer of Bizarro, Doomsday, the Kryptonian monster is able to crush Bizarro’s skull, is said to be one of the few capable of “giving as good as he gets” from Supes, is considered by Kal one of his most dangerous enemies (it’s his Fear induced illusion in Year One) and is implied to have nearly killed the Man of Steel by Lex (referencing the Death of Superman). This is also ignoring the S.T.A.R Labs missions (of questionable canonicity to be quite fair) calling Doomsday one of the most powerful villains on Earth alongside Adam and Grundy. A.M.A.Z.O should likely also scale based on him dominating both the Insurgents and Regime Remnant before Supergirl’s arrival and being stated by Ares as being beyond Diana’s ability to combat as well as his brutal domination of General Zod.

Top Tiers​

• Supes is mentioned to have moved a moon (Injustice: Year Zero #14)
• Supes recovers from Captain Atom’s attack(Injustice: Year One #)
  • Captain Atom has more power then 10 nukes and can destroy the North Pole (Injustice: Year One #32)
• Supes craters the Moon with Sinestro’s body (Injustice: Year Two #4)
• Supes survives the Watchtower blowing up(Injustice; Chapter 8)
  • This explosion could be seen from Earth (Injustice: Ground Zero #18)
• Amazo destroys a part of Delhi, creating a huge crater(Injustice 2 #44)
  • Alternate view (Injustice 2 #46)
• Supergirl smashes Amazo into the moon (Injustice 2 #47)
  • This is shown to have made a crater (Injustice 2 #48)
  • This could be taken as a showing of the crater’s height, note the background (Injustice 2 #48)

Mid Tiers​

• A Lantern Ring is “the greatest weapon in the universe” which could scale them to nukes (Injustice: Year One #4)
• Wonder Woman oneshots a tank (Injustice: Year One #9)
• Grundy punches Diana through walls (Injustice: Year One #16)
• Lobo destroys a sewer ceiling (Injustice: Year One Annual)
• Pill Harley recovers from smashing through an office roof (Injustice: Year One Annual)
• Pill Harley smashes through building walls (Injustice: Year One Annual)
• Green Lantern Sinestro smashes a building with his construct (Injustice: Year Two #7)
• A bunch of GL’s and Kilowog tanka satellite blast(Injustice: Year Two #9)
  • Thismakes a hugecrater (Injustice: Year Two #10)
• Despero falls through several floors (Injustice: Year Two #15)
• Yellow Lanterns reduce people to skeletons (This might be Supes) (Injustice: Year Three #1)
• Green Lanterns falling took out whole buildings and did massive collateral(Injustice: Year Three #1)
  • Depiction of Rose Constantine’s house after this (Injustice: Year Three #1)
• Ares just swats Yellow Lantern (Injustice: Year Three #16)
• Wonder Woman punches Sinestro through a wall(Injustice: Year Three #16)
  • View of hole (Injustice: Year Three #16)
• Shazam and Hercules punching shifts the ground (Injustice: Year Four #13)
• Shazam craters the ground saying Hercules doesn’t deserve his H (Injustice: Year Four #13)
• Sinestro cracks the ground and sends cars flying by flexing (Injustice: Year Four #15)
• Poseidon makes a wave(Injustice: Year Four #17)
  • This is later said by Bruce to be “a thousand feet high” (Injustice: Year Four #18)
  • Alternate view of the water (Injustice: Year Four #18)
• Hera vaporizes Artemis (Injustice: Year Four #23)
• Shazam sends Harley Quinn into the pavement(Injustice: Year Five #22)
  • We see a large amount of damage from this (Injustice: Year Five #22)
• Sinestro has created a huge tower construct(Injustice: Year Five #22)
  • Another view (Injustice: Year Five #29)
• Flash survives Deathstroke’s explosion(Injustice; Chapter 7)
  • Same explosion here (Injustice: Ground Zero #17)
• Black Adam turns a man to a skeleton (Injustice 2 #12)
• Adam smashed through tanks together, disabling them (Injustice 2 #12)
• Aqualad floods D.C with a huge wave (Injustice 2 #24)
• Nubia survives being smashed through a wall by Supergirl (Injustice 2 #31)
• Mech suit Batman hits Zod hard enough to tear up ice(Injustice 2 #39)
  • Said hit was strong enough to create tectonic activity detected by Gorilla City (Injustice 2 #39)
• Booster Gold gets sent flying through multiple skyscrapers (Injustice 2 #47)
• Soranik sends Sinestro threw a concrete wall(Injustice 2 #54)
  • View of hole (Injustice 2 #54)
• Red Lanterns level building(Injustice 2 #54)
  • This may have been multiple Lanterns (Injustice 2 #54)
• Lobo’s bike blows stuff up (Injustice 2 #57)
• Firestorm is stated to be able to nuke Metropolis with a certain attack (Injustice 2; Chapter 6)

This whole thing is pointless. Every middle tier, especially shazam and flash, can win against Superman. The only ones who shouldn't scale are the ones without the feats of fighting other characters needed to scale, like Aqualad.

Speed​

Movement Memery​

So currently everyone is Massively FTL+ based off Superman travelling to Apokalips in Year Four and the assorted Lanterns being able to cross vast swaths of the galaxy in a limited amount of time. This is fine but then we have to realize a change in policy. Because of recent staff rulings, movement speed does not necessarily equal combat or reaction speed (especially in the context of interstellar travel). We need to have characters actively making maneuvers or reacting in real time during their flight and, unfortunately, we have no instances of this actively being the case in Injustice, making the ratings questionable.

The Massively FTL+ feats do have their place though, they’re definitely fine to keep for movement speed but we shouldn’t be using this as anything else. So that means the current justifications leave the combat speed and reactions feats completely null and void, a huge problem for the verse.

Finding Fast​

Introduction​

Clearly we need to find replacement feats for the cast but luckily we have plenty, below you will find a list for the assorted tiers of characters. The top tiers being Superman and Flash (Barry Allen) who are actively treated as the fastest with the best feats and the mid tiers being the metahumans who aren’t named Superman and Flash.

Top Tiers​

• Flash searches “every inch of Metropolis” (Injustice: Year One #2)
• Supes and Flash speak in “flashtime” (Injustice Year 1: #24)
• Supes and Flash race around the world (Injustice; Flash Mission 34)
• Supes flies to the Watchtower (Injustice; Chapter 8)
• Superman flies from orbit to Earth in about 20 seconds (Injustice; Chapter 9)
• Flash runs from the north pole and navigates at hyperspeed(Injustice; Chapter 10)
  • Alternate depiction (Injustice: Ground Zero #21)
• Flash steals a company’s firearms from them in seven seconds (Injustice; Chapter 10)
• A.M.A.Z.O flies to the Arctic(Injustice 2 #39)
  • Timeframe unknown but quick since the order is given during the fight and he arrives soon after (Injustice 2 #39)
• Barry saves people in multiple trips from a falling building (Injustice 2 #45)
• Supergirl takes A.M.A.Z.O from New Delhito the upper atmosphere(Injustice 2 #47)
  • They hit the Moon soon after (Injustice 2 #47)
  • Next issue is called “Dark Side of the Moon” which could imply that’s the side they landed on (Injustice 2 #48)
  • Later outright confirmed lmao (Injustice 2 #48)
• Flash sees bullets in slow motion (Injustice 2; Chapter 4)

Mid Tiers​

• Diana flies to the upper atmosphere in two seconds (Injustice: Year Four #23)
• “Prime” Green Lantern blocks lightning with wall construct (Injustice; Chapter 9)
• Jaime flies from New Delhi to the Dark Side of the Moon(Injustice 2 #48)
  • This takes about 10 pages
• Firestorm reacts to Adam’s lightning (Injustice 2; Chapter 6)
• Wonder Woman casually deflects bullets (Injustice 2; Chapter 8)

Superman shouldn't scale to Flash. Flash best feats are even feats superman shouldn't be able to do for obvious reasons (he has been searching the base for years, flash found it in minutes at most, and one of them has super senses.). It seems to be Flash>>>Top tiers>mid tier, with a manageable difference between the top and mid tiers

 

[Hellbeast]

hardly an AP feat, especially since a character like the spectre couldn't do it either.

It's relevant because of the scaling implication

sure, not a stomp though.

But it is him oneshotting a shield that shouldn't be massively weaker then Hal himself? Like it's not exactly a great showing to advoctate that Hal isn't massively weaker then Supes. Especially since this Supes isn't anywhere near as unhinged as his latter counterpart.

Ares power come from war, in a world with forced peace, he would obviously be much weaker. The first screen comes from year 3 #15 The second Y1 #9

That very same issue Ares claims he's being supercharged by being in an active warzone, his comments about the state of the world depowering him aren't a thing until much later in the timeline when Supes has had years to instate and enforce his new order. This is a very early period for the Regime and is absolutely not reflective of the much more diminished Ares we see in Gods Among Us or the state of the world as of the game or even the latter years of the tie in comics.

including superman, who had to get aquaman to stop it. getting through a tentacle that could was only trying to protect arthur vs getting attacked by surprise, it really can't be compared

Still notable because Supes easily does the most against the Kraken

said atom could match superman, Diana is the only reason atom didn't kill him. he was also definitively not "recovered"

And him being able to match Superman is treated as incredibly significant, not at all sensible in a universe where everybody and their mum can fight the Kryptonian evenly. I'd also note Diana getting ko'd like she does by Atom's blastdirectly contradicts her being on their level and you could easily argue it's just a feat for her weapons since that's what pierces Atom's suit.

as shown above, wonder woman basically one shot someone who was overpowering superman

And oneshot in turn by his dying blast from a much greater distance then Clark

the whole issue really doesn't make superman stronger, at most you could argue that he's more resistant to radioactivity or burns, looking at WW body.

It very much does since we have no idea how much of Atom's energy is radiation and we outright see they're about as resistant in Year One. Notice how Diana had no problem with Ground Zero Metropolis.

Not really a stat stomp, he just carried Lobo from the earth to the sun before he could free himself from superman's grasp

If Lobo could wouldn't you think he'd try to outmuscle him or punch him? Him being overpowered like this implies Supes is decently > Lobo. At the very least it's a very clear showing Supes has massively greater speed then Lobo can react to.

It is implied Lobo could battle Darkseid but we have no idea how that fight actually went and considering Lobo's healing it could have gone badly and he'd be fine.

see Hal

See my answer there

See hal

See answer there

Technically a surprise attack on a lantern.

And even if you ignore that technical surprise attack we still see Supes is stronger, this is also ignoring the satellite nuke (that they all tanked in Year 2) was also a surprise attack

speedsters aren't resilient, who would have guessed! Also this really doesn't set superman as stronger, he pushed back someone who could harm Flash. Also this and this

And do you have proof that Barry is << the rest of the setting exactly? If Barry can harm people on a certain level that scales to durability and there's no implication he's variable ala the main comics canon.

Because otherwise he's no less resilient then anyone else and is thus applicable

When Shazam was actually overpowering Hercules?

I'm not saying Shazam wasn't winning, I'm saying Supes one shots someone who is able to overwhelm a Lantern and fight on par with someone who's considered powerful among the League. Becuase it's absolutely a oneshot and you can't ignore it at all.

And Superman only killed by charging at him with a surprise attack? After Hercules gave up on his life following his defeat to Shazam?

He was surrendering to his fate yes but why are you assuming his durability massively dropped for Kal to kill him like this?

he also beat a thug that one time- Plastic man's son is fodder.

And is one example out of many. I also believe we see him get durability feats in Injustice 2 but i'd have to re-read this.

sounds very dramatic for someone who is repeatably stated to be stoppable by Flash, Martian manhunter, Captain Atom, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Black Adam, Batman and Shazam.

Do you have those statements perchance? Because I couldn't find many for half of the people you mentioned.

...

So are you going to say anything here or no? If the latter then why comment on this?

first screen isn't the right one

Ah shit, i'll fix that.

Speedster, durability. Also isn't there this whole thing about how speedsters stat enhancement is an active thing?

1) That's for the main canon, we are not using anything the Prime continuity claims because it's a different universe
2) Flash isn't massively weaker then everyone else

no, he claims that he doesn't know if he's ever seen superman bleed, for the dramatic effect. Superman has bled tons of times

1) Prove it's simply for dramatic effect
2) I'm not saying he doesn't bleed, just that Hawkman hasn't seen him bleed
3) It's relevant to point out since Hawkman has fought alongside the JL for years and him not being able to recall a bleeding Supes has some definite implications.

Hawkgirl/Hawkman definitively doesn't scale to the rest of the cast.

I sincerely doubt he's massively weaker then the rest of the cast since he harms Cyborg

not a stomp

And it's not exactly even either is it? Especially notable since this is an Ares who's likely stronger then the War God actually is for the majority of the Injustice storyline.

they weren't fighting him while he was in the construct, and again, hardly a stomp

But he does break out of construct by flexing while fighting multiple characters and likely having lost some combat skill by basically sitting as a tyrant. It's definitely not as even as you make it seem and I don't see why you're minimizing it.

So?

If I'm stated as being able to run the world by force in a world where I'm directly assaulted by other metahumans and am easily able to put down challenges myself I think that's worth noting. Especially since it's stated here as specifically being Superman's power outright and not just his influence over state or by his command of the Fascist Justice League

Lex's suit had a very bad day, including getting stopped by shazam electricity seconds earlier

He wasn't stopped, he beats down Shazam and is only stunned by Shazam cheapshotting him.
He also beats down a Pill enhanced Joker (we know he popped a pill thanks to Ground Zero) and we see Joker shouldn't be much weaker then the other Metahumans. Supes oneshotting is still valid scaling

You're also assuming Lex's durability dropped by magnitudes by that one lightning bolt which is not a valid concern at all.

not necessarily easily, and not a stomp.

He very clearly has no expression here and is sending Sinestro's arm aside. Look how much pain Thaal is in here, he;'s gritting his teeth and exclaiming in uncomfort/pain while Supes is just moving his arm.
It's very easy for Supes and is almost certainly proof Clark has a huge gap in LS at the very least.

Again, how would you scale that? With fate being put massively above the rest of the cast and all.

Is Fate that much stronger then everyone else? Like it's there because it's notably not something anyonre else has.

how is that holding back? He's just saying he doesn't like doing it.

Because it's him actively attempting to de-escalate the conflict when he outright has an edge in power. Tell me the Supes who would nuke a city would have such qualms.

referring to his morals. He just kidnapped Atlantis.

And his morals become ever looser as the series goes on which is presented in his scenes and his battles with other characters. His morals not holding him back isn't as far removed as you're saying from direct power.

Again, morals, because he can't go lethal usually. This should applies to everyone, especially batman's side.

This is something that's outright not a concern later on though, absolutely key to bring this up when he's later nuking cities to set an example and killing civilians out of rage.

in a flashback. And specifically refers to superman vs WW. because they are friends.

I'm aware but this exact conundrum comes up during Year Four and it still proves he isn't always going all out, even years into his fascist turn.

For the holding back part, again, that's before most of his feats, and other heroes should get it too, and it's mostly about morals. Definitively referring to governments

It's especially notable for Supes though because he by far gets the most insistence that he holds back

again, I wouldn't call taking atlantis hostage "stopping holding back", not doing it isn't gonna nerf his stats.

It does he's not playing around though and is slowly but surely not letting his morals get in the way. It's a huge moment for his character progression and who he becomes later on, it's absolutely valid to point this out.

for you. They then fight without him holding back, and Diana still wins.

After his arm is already broken and he's spent half the fight holding back, it's not a huge showing for Diana and we outright see he's superior. Diana could only win that fight by exploiting that mindset and we see Bruce corroborate this in a flashback during Year Four.
You could use this to argue a "x likely 6-A" rating for Diana based off this but that's it, she'd likely not win without this mindset being exploitable and is outright incapactitated by something he recovers from for two years.

again, this isn't about stats.

How isn't it exactly?
Unleashed means to "cause (a strong or violent force) to be released or become unrestrained" and varying synonyms include "unbridle", "let loose" and "unbind". Superman having such a statement during combat (iirc just after Darkseid is hit by him) definitely implies Supes let go and is now more dangerous for it.

Even if it's just referring to morals it means he's absolutely not going to be pulling his punches like (as the statement kinda implies) normal.

here, it's about his no-killing rule.

If he's willing to kill he's not very likely to pull punches or go easy though now is he?

because he obviously need to go all out to beat the joker. Again, it's about killing.

I know, it's here for completion's sake

This whole thing is pointless. Every middle tier, especially shazam and flash, can win against Superman. The only ones who shouldn't scale are the ones without the feats of fighting other characters needed to scale, like Aqualad.

Absolutely disagree; Supes is clearly portrayed as the strongest single character on the League and pretty much every statement in the OP outright proves this, even if I allow you some it's still clearly intended he's stronger. You're also just ignoring Darkseid's comment about "Superman unleashed" and how that is, as a whole, reflective of the character's power. Or how Supergirl (who scales to Kal El) is pretty clearly the only one who can fight A.M.A.Z.O.

Or how Supes hits Superboy so hard he has a lethal wound that will slowly kill him if not in the Phantom Zone.

The only thing here that's pointless is you writing up a Russian novel to cherry-pick and ignore the very clear implications Supes is >> everyone else. Please make a more condensed reply next time if you're going to continue this topic

Superman shouldn't scale to Flash. Flash best feats are even feats superman shouldn't be able to do for obvious reasons (he has been searching the base for years, flash found it in minutes at most, and one of them has super senses.). It seems to be Flash>>>Top tiers>mid tier, with a manageable difference between the top and mid tiers

I'd argue they're relative even if Supes is slower, he's the only one able to keep up with Barry in Year One's moralizing (his blitz and his chess game) and we see them keep up with each other in Year 5 and in the S.T.A.R minigame.

 

[ByAsura]

On another note I'd argue that, outside of that really dumb death scene, comic Shazam is usually portrayed as the next strongest Leaguer.

 

[Hellbeast]

On another note I'd argue that, outside of that really dumb death scene, comic Shazam is usually portrayed as the next strongest Leaguer.

I'd agree with this
I can definitely see him Adam and Diana sort of representing an "intermediary" between the JL and Supes ala Kung Lao and Kotal Kahn from Mortal Kombat. I definitely think they're weaker but I can see them getting a split tiering along the lines of "X (insert objective feats here), likely 6-A (Supes scaling). If that's what we're doing that would be focused upon those characters I mentioned and likely Hercules. Ares at his prime could get it via overpowering Diana but that's with him being actively amped.

 

[ByAsura]

How about at least 6-A for Supes, who can easily kill/main characters that survived his moon cracking feat if he truly wanted (i.e Year Four). Keep in mind, the feat is very close to Continent level+.

6-A for Diana and co.

And at most 6-A for the cream of the crop Green Lanterns.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Did my scans prove of any use that I posted above?

Superman, Diana and Shazam lift Atlantis seems like a good lifting feat

 

[ByAsura]

I think the Ganthet stuff lends some credence to Guy Gardener's statement.

 

[Hellbeast]

How about at least 6-A for Supes, who can easily kill/main characters that survived his moon cracking feat if he truly wanted (i.e Year Four). Keep in mind, the feat is very close to Continent level+.

Hmm I'm torn, on one hand it's a finely casual feat for Supes but Sinestro is much lesser in power then the Man of Steel himself so this feels like scaling them to Supes with extra steps.

And at most 6-A for the cream of the crop Green Lanterns.

Would this refer to Hall?

 

[ByAsura]

Sinestro was the one who survived it, and with only moderate injuries. So it's more like placing everyone around the feat.

Hal, Sinestro, Kilowog, John and Atrocitus. Maybe Guy, too, but we don't really see him at full power except when Superman breaks his arm. Ditto for Kyle Rayner.

 

[Hellbeast]

Sinestro was the one who survived it, and with only moderate injuries. So it's more like placing everyone around the feat.

Hmm that’s true, I’ll see what the majority thinks? I’m fine with using it if it’s consistent

Hal, Sinestro, Kilowog, John and Atrocitus. Maybe Guy, too, but we don't really see him at full power except when Superman breaks his arm.

The guardians would easily scale to this too now I think about it.

Ditto for Kyle Rayner.
Damn he was done dirty

 

[chosen]

I'd definitely put that as more hax personally

Fair enough

 

[RanaProGamer]

If Supes is vastly above everyone else, then shouldn't he be At least 6-A?

 

[RanaProGamer]

But its 6-A a.k.a the cursed tier tho

Unless the Supergirl moon feat can be calced.

 

[chosen]

see what the majority thinks?

Btw i agree with scaling sinestro to tge feat

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Unless the Supergirl moon feat can be calced.

Which moon feat again?

 

[RanaProGamer]

Which moon feat again?

• Supergirl smashes Amazo into the moon (Injustice 2 #47)
  • This is shown to have made a crater (Injustice 2 #48)
  • This could be taken as a showing of the crater’s height, note the background (Injustice 2 #48)

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I think it is probably calcable. Would likely yield similar results to Sinestro's crater

 

[RanaProGamer]

I think it is probably calcable. Would likely yield similar results to Sinestro's crater

If it does, then we can settle on 6-A since it would be consistent

 

[TypeOU]

It's relevant because of the scaling implication

But it is him oneshotting a shield that shouldn't be massively weaker then Hal himself? Like it's not exactly a great showing to advoctate that Hal isn't massively weaker then Supes. Especially since this Supes isn't anywhere near as unhinged as his latter counterpart.

or you could just see it as a defensive move on hal's side and an offensive move on Superman's side. Superman being even slightly stronger means he can break it in one move.

That very same issue Ares claims he's being supercharged by being in an active warzone, his comments about the state of the world depowering him aren't a thing until much later in the timeline when Supes has had years to instate and enforce his new order. This is a very early period for the Regime and is absolutely not reflective of the much more diminished Ares we see in Gods Among Us or the state of the world as of the game or even the latter years of the tie in comics.

one of my screens is wonder woman overpowering him in the exact same issue.

Still notable because Supes easily does the most against the Kraken

It's really not. We have no idea how the others would have handled the fight in supes situation and vice versa, they were at a massive disadvanteage.

And him being able to match Superman is treated as incredibly significant, not at all sensible in a universe where everybody and their mum can fight the Kryptonian evenly.

Again, don't act like everyone in the world is a top tier superheroes, among billions of humans, they are in the early dozens, at best. And captain atom is the one who can overpower superman, not just fight him.

I'd also note Diana getting ko'd like she does by Atom's blastdirectly contradicts her being on their level and you could easily argue it's just a feat for her weapons since that's what pierces Atom's suit.

it was a suicide blast, of course it's stronger than a normal attack. And it means her sword would scale to atom, who scale to superman, then multiple characters scale to her sword.

And oneshot in turn by his dying blast from a much greater distance then Clark

It very much does since we have no idea how much of Atom's energy is radiation and we outright see they're about as resistant in Year One. Notice how Diana had no problem with Ground Zero Metropolis.

Did you take a look at wonder woman's wound? It's really either heat or radiation.

If Lobo could wouldn't you think he'd try to outmuscle him or punch him? Him being overpowered like this implies Supes is decently > Lobo. At the very least it's a very clear showing Supes has massively greater speed then Lobo can react to.

Yeah let's outsmucle someone who just grabbed you out of nowhere and started flying at FTL speeds before you could think of a counter.

It is implied Lobo could battle Darkseid but we have no idea how that fight actually went and considering Lobo's healing it could have gone badly and he'd be fine.

Who does Lobo scale to again? Vaguely superman and darkseid due to being implied to be a match for them? Not sure it really helps here

See my answer there

See answer there

same.

And even if you ignore that technical surprise attack we still see Supes is stronger, this is also ignoring the satellite nuke (that they all tanked in Year 2) was also a surprise attack

Again, not enough to separate mid tier and top tiers.

And do you have proof that Barry is << the rest of the setting exactly? If Barry can harm people on a certain level that scales to durability and there's no implication he's variable ala the main comics canon.

Because otherwise he's no less resilient then anyone else and is thus applicable

Injustice takes place on earth 22 of the multiverse, so the speedforce should work more or less the same way unless proven otherwise.
Also this

I'm not saying Shazam wasn't winning, I'm saying Supes one shots someone who is able to overwhelm a Lantern and fight on par with someone who's considered powerful among the League. Becuase it's absolutely a oneshot and you can't ignore it at all.

after getting stomped in a 2v1. It's pretty obvious that the key here was a surprise full power attack at someone who stopped defending himself. Also that was right after a sundip for what it's worth

And is one example out of many. I also believe we see him get durability feats in Injustice 2 but i'd have to re-read this.

Again, he's actual fodder, it doesn't matter.

Do you have those statements perchance? Because I couldn't find many for half of the people you mentioned.

the whole year 4 fight for wonder woman
His only appearance for MMH, he directly stated that despite their durability, he could take them easily, from inside. Not like he was proven wrong either.
captain atom doesn't need to be explained
The whole thing with Iris for Flash, where he was supposed to stop superman if he went rogue. Plus faring much better against opponents most of the time.
Black Adam and batman both directly won a fight against superman, although under the pill for the latter, and he had to be saved by the rest of the justice league both times.
Shazam through Hercules and black adam

So are you going to say anything here or no? If the latter then why comment on this?

What is it supposed to mean? It's not like Superman was used to fighting other heroes, so they don't apply to bane statement, except since injustice started, but we saw these fights, while Bane most certainly didn't. And how does "rare" exclude like 10 characters out of Billions of humans and a nigh infinite numbers of humanoid beings in the universe.

Ah shit, i'll fix that.

the feat is fine then, but parasite himself wasn't shown to be stronger than anyone

1) That's for the main canon, we are not using anything the Prime continuity claims because it's a different universe

again, speedforce, multiverse.

2) Flash isn't massively weaker then everyone else

no, but he definitively doesn't take hits as easily.

1) Prove it's simply for dramatic effect

the formulation? "I don't know if...".

2) I'm not saying he doesn't bleed, just that Hawkman hasn't seen him bleed

not what he said.

3) It's relevant to point out since Hawkman has fought alongside the JL for years and him not being able to recall a bleeding Supes has some definite implications.

again, the formulation is purely dramatic and doesn't mean anything. It's not like his follow up was something about how strong superman is, he just said he liked it.

I sincerely doubt he's massively weaker then the rest of the cast since he harms Cyborg

Hawkgirl wouldn't have been able to save alfred back in year 1 when MMH did it, despite it being a pretty casual feat for MMH, they really aren't close to the rest of the cast

And it's not exactly even either is it? Especially notable since this is an Ares who's likely stronger then the War God actually is for the majority of the Injustice storyline.

You could say the same about the prime continuity superman though. It's also just a one-time thing about how superman won a fight against Ares, who, while he is not fodder, isn't a league threat either.

But he does break out of construct by flexing while fighting multiple characters and likely having lost some combat skill by basically sitting as a tyrant. It's definitely not as even as you make it seem and I don't see why you're minimizing it.

Your statement about combat skill is irrelevant, since it's not like he's gonna magically recover them at some point. And again, he wasn't fighting multiple characters, they didn't somehow attack him while he was in the cage.

If I'm stated as being able to run the world by force in a world where I'm directly assaulted by other metahumans and am easily able to put down challenges myself I think that's worth noting. Especially since it's stated here as specifically being Superman's power outright and not just his influence over state or by his command of the Fascist Justice League

Again, so? It doesn't mean that superman is stronger in any way, just that his biggest advantage is his superpowers. He incidentally has the whole justice league backing him, and tons of proofs that he can only run the world thanks to them.

He wasn't stopped, he beats down Shazam and is only stunned by Shazam cheapshotting him.

In the game, he still had to fight multiple times before that, took a hit from superman directly charging at him form space without being able to defend himself. And that didn't destroy the armor, Lex was the one who was K.O

He also beats down a Pill enhanced Joker (we know he popped a pill thanks to Ground Zero) and we see Joker shouldn't be much weaker then the other Metahumans. Supes oneshotting is still valid scaling

Sure, but again, it's far from putting superman in another tier. Especially since that would mean that Superman>lex>pill joker=pill batman>superman

You're also assuming Lex's durability dropped by magnitudes by that one lightning bolt which is not a valid concern at all.

no, but actively protecting yourself is important when you take an attack, even from someone on your level

He very clearly has no expression here and is sending Sinestro's arm aside. Look how much pain Thaal is in here, he;'s gritting his teeth and exclaiming in uncomfort/pain while Supes is just moving his arm.
It's very easy for Supes and is almost certainly proof Clark has a huge gap in LS at the very least.

"no expression" doesn't mean he did it casually, it means he wasn't struggling. He's stronger, but again, it's not enough to warrant a new tier

Is Fate that much stronger then everyone else? Like it's there because it's notably not something anyonre else has.

He's apparently not. Well in that case the feat is fine, not sure it really puts superman massively above everyone else

Because it's him actively attempting to de-escalate the conflict when he outright has an edge in power. Tell me the Supes who would nuke a city would have such qualms.

again, not stats then.

And his morals become ever looser as the series goes on which is presented in his scenes and his battles with other characters. His morals not holding him back isn't as far removed as you're saying from direct power.

most of the statements are about morals tho, with the only exception being his WW fight, but she still beat him afterward

This is something that's outright not a concern later on though, absolutely key to bring this up when he's later nuking cities to set an example and killing civilians out of rage.

still not stats, or even relevant in a 1v1

I'm aware but this exact conundrum comes up during Year Four and it still proves he isn't always going all out, even years into his fascist turn.

gonna come back on this later

It's especially notable for Supes though because he by far gets the most insistence that he holds back

because the point of the story is that he stopped holding back. He takes hostages, kill, even innocents and civilians.

It does he's not playing around though and is slowly but surely not letting his morals get in the way. It's a huge moment for his character progression and who he becomes later on, it's absolutely valid to point this out.

yes, but it's not about AP.

After his arm is already broken and he's spent half the fight holding back, it's not a huge showing for Diana and we outright see he's superior. Diana could only win that fight by exploiting that mindset and we see Bruce corroborate this in a flashback during Year Four.
You could use this to argue a "x likely 6-A" rating for Diana based off this but that's it, she'd likely not win without this mindset being exploitable and is outright incapactitated by something he recovers from for two years.

he stopped holding back, missing arm or not, and she still won, even tanked his heat vision head on. I agree that he's a bit stronger, but it's nowhere near a stomp.

How isn't it exactly?
Unleashed means to "cause (a strong or violent force) to be released or become unrestrained" and varying synonyms include "unbridle", "let loose" and "unbind". Superman having such a statement during combat (iirc just after Darkseid is hit by him) definitely implies Supes let go and is now more dangerous for it.

because darkseid is already known as one of the characters superman goes all out against. Well, even if it was, it's not relevant to anything past halfway through year 1, and any feat that doesn't come from fighting someone.

Even if it's just referring to morals it means he's absolutely not going to be pulling his punches like (as the statement kinda implies) normal.

He really doesn't need to hold his punches to not kill darkseid, as shown well... here.

If he's willing to kill he's not very likely to pull punches or go easy though now is he?

it's the other way around, if he's not willing to kill he doesn't necessarily have to pull punches or go easy.

Absolutely disagree; Supes is clearly portrayed as the strongest single character on the League and pretty much every statement in the OP outright proves this, even if I allow you some it's still clearly intended he's stronger. You're also just ignoring Darkseid's comment about "Superman unleashed" and how that is, as a whole, reflective of the character's power. Or how Supergirl (who scales to Kal El) is pretty clearly the only one who can fight A.M.A.Z.O.

Eh, supergirl fighting A.M.A.Z.O is actually valid, although I will show counter feats later. And while he's one of the strongest leaguers, the ones he is stronger than aren't depicted as characters he can stomp or in another league.

Or how Supes hits Superboy so hard he has a lethal wound that will slowly kill him if not in the Phantom Zone.

Yeah, good thing two characters with similar stats can hurt each other while fighting, the fights would be really long otherwise.

I'd argue they're relative even if Supes is slower, he's the only one able to keep up with Barry in Year One's moralizing (his blitz and his chess game) and we see them keep up with each other in Year 5 and in the S.T.A.R minigame.

in year 1, superman wasn't shown to blitz any superhuman on his level. He was blitzing parademons and not-super heroes.

now Superman was overpowered by black adam (year 5), batman (year 5), evenly matched by wonder woman, overpowered by hercules while fighting him 2v1 with WW, said hercules was then overpowered by shazam, matched and eventually overpowered by captain atom, Martian manhunter stated that he could kill superman and wonder woman from the inside, and procedeed to do it with he latter, aquaman with the kraken can overpower the whole justice league, which should include superman considering that other characters on his level were defeated. Then you have multiple characters matching these characters and in turn being matched by other characters.

 

[Hellbeast]

Ok I'll get to Type's response a bit later if ok with everyone, very long post

I think it is probably calcable. Would likely yield similar results to Sinestro's crater

Possibly, I'm not sure how the crater would be calculated but at the very least KE should be good if it doesn't violate our rules

 

[ByAsura]

Pretty easily beats Hawkmanto death after the latter loses the Kryptonite (Injustice: Year Five #32)

Just wondering, does Hawkman have any good scaling?

 

[Hellbeast]

Just wondering, does Hawkman have any good scaling?

TBH he doesn't have much. He does injure Cyborg and fights a few other characters iirc but he's a pretty minor character all things considered, he's there for comprehensiveness if nothing else.

 

[ByAsura]

I was just interested because Superman collapses from Kryptonite poisoning right after he beat him unconscious.

 

[Hellbeast]

I was just interested because Superman collapses from Kryptonite poisoning right after he beat him unconscious.

Actually it was to death but yeah Supes was insanely impacted for this fight

 

[ByAsura]

I thought they said he was alive later, but I haven't read the whole comic line.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Speaking of Hawk Heroes, I should point out there's a panel where Damian believes Hawkgirl isn't strong enough to lift a giant coin. It could be just referring to LS. I'll try find it if needed

 

[TypeOU]

Speaking of Hawk Heroes, I should point out there's a panel where Damian believes Hawkgirl isn't strong enough to lift a giant coin. I'll try find it if needed

that's what I was referring to earlier, it was when MMH saved alfred

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Snip

Spoiler: I'm sorry but i can't hold myself posting this

 

[TypeOU]

Spoiler: I'm sorry but i can't hold myself posting this

I didn't even say snip!

 

[Hellbeast]

I thought they said he was alive later, but I haven't read the whole comic line.

Nah he's dead after the second fight

Speaking of Hawk Heroes, I should point out there's a panel where Damian believes Hawkgirl isn't strong enough to lift a giant coin. It could be just referring to LS. I'll try find it if needed

I feel that's just LS tbh with you

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

I didn't even say snip!

That’s what most members do when replying to really long comments in general

 

[ByAsura]

The calculation is now Large Country level+.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

The calculation is now Large Country level+.

Supergirl moon feat?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

The calculation is now Large Country level+.

Considering the High 6-B+ result is so close to baseline 6-A (1.08x difference), I think upscaling guys like Supes to 6-A is valid, while Sinestro level people can stay at High 6-B

 

[Hellbeast]

Yeah that should work if it's approved

 

[Qawsedf234]

Jesus how did I upgrade them with a downgrade

Dunno if its like, a true upgrade. Since its preformed by a character who stomps the vast majority of the verse and does it against a person who's one shot from it.

 

[ByAsura]

Sinestro was still conscious. He just has a few bruises and a bloody nose, likely because Superman was holding back (as he tended to do in Year 1).

It scales to him, especially since shields are typically above the normal forcefield of a Lantern.

It's also worth noting that even characters with super pills are above high-end Lanterns and Cyborg in the comics.

Now, here's my suggestions for scaling.

At least Large Country level+ for Superman and comparable characters, like Doomsday or the high-end super pill users (If they really want to, they can kill or maim Lanterns and similar characters with moderate effort)

Large Country level+ for your mid-end characters, like Wonder Woman (although, I think she's really closer to Superman than a mid-tier) or more average super pill users (Far superior to the Lanterns and typically capable of inflicting heavy or moderate damage on Superman)

Likely Large Country level for lower characters, like high-level Green Lanterns (They'd need to be more than 7x lower than Superman's feat to downscale into the very highest ends of Country level, and that's strongly unlikely because Sinestro withstood it. They can also, on occasion, harm Superman to various extents, like drawing a few drops of blood at least)

 

[Hellbeast]

I’d suggest at most for that last tier but that could work

 

[ByAsura]

Likely's better because they're already being downscaled from a + tier.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Since we don't have any statistics on characters that aren't super strong or have the super pill, I figured I'd do this.

I know it hasn't been approved yet, but I think characters like Croc or Deadshot (and Batman who scales to them) are normally on this level in the series.