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Infinite Mass Punch Calculation for Post-Crisis Flash and Superman

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E=mc2


Introduction and Disclaimer
The Current Calculation Accepted on this Wiki for the IMP

The purpose of this blog post will be to disprove the above calculation that is currently being accepted for the Attack Potency of both Flash and Superma and to prove that the feat actually generates far more energy than originally calculated, which should move Wally West from 4-C to 4-B.

To do this, I will provide the definition of E = mc^2, three primary scans that all prove the characters performing the Infinite Mass Punch are referring to their increased masses, as well as examples from the comics for the aftermath of these feats.

E = mc^2
E = mc^2 is the equation derived by the twentieth-century German-born physicist, Albert Einstein, in his theory of special relativity, which shows that the increased relativistic mass (m) of a body comes from the energy of motion of that body. E represents units of energy, m represents units of mass, and c^2 is the speed of light squared, or multiplied by itself.

This is important to note since the currently accepted calculation above completely ignores Einstein's theory when this site typically accepts them (especially in regards to relativity). Also, if you read original poster's comments below his blog post, then you see him contradicting himself and actually stating that he "chooses" to believe the authors of each comic meant the "density of the materials" making up a white dwarf star and not its full mass. One cannot simply choose what they want and do not want to believe in a series that stated "mass" on three separate occasions.

Debunking the Current Calculatio
As briefly stated above, the problem with the current calculation is that it completely ignores the "mass" part of Einstein's equation in favor of using density, implying that Flash and Superman only increase the density of their fists to the same as that of a white dwarf star and do not increase their mass whatsoever. This completely ignores all three statements in all three scans below for the actual feat being used and goes against simple scientific logic.

If force is produced by mass times acceleration and kinetic energy is similarly produced using mass and velocity, why then would density play a factor so long as both users' fists remain intact after the IMP feat was achieved? (And spoiler alert: their fists are fine afterward).

Also, in the video he posts to prove that speed is relative, he fails to point at that "speed" may be relative, but "changes in speed are not ... Changes in speed are absolute," as the same video later points out. And Flash and Superman are obviously changing their speed if they're approaching light.

Again, the original poster is cherry picking only the facts he wants for his own calculations.

The Feats and Actual Calculatio

Flash Infinite Mass Punch
Flash Infinite Mass Punch2
Superman Infinite Mass Punch


As you can clearly see in all three scans above, each time the Infinite Mass Punch is performed, Flash and Superman's increases in "mass" are being referenced, with Wally giving a clear statement for just how much his mass is being increased.

"Physics 101. The faster an object moves, the more mass it obtains. At light speed, my fist hits like a white dwarf star."

Wally references mass and then gives a clear statement for the kind of mass he is referring to. This leaves very little (to no) room for interpretation. And based on Einstein's theory and the "absolute changes in speed" both characters exhibit, Superman should pack the same amount of force behind his own Infinite Mass Punch as well. While not directly connected to the Speed Force like Wally is, Superman has demonstrated the same number of speed-based abilities, vibrating being the main point of contention that Superman cannot perform.

Therefore, if Superman and Flash were moving just under the speed of light (96.8% c or 290,199,099 m/s) and obtained a mass equal to that of a white dwarf star (averaged as 1 solar mass or 1.99e+30 kg), then using this kinetic energy calculator , we can determine just how many Joules of energy they exerted.

[(290199099 m/s * 290199099 m/s) * 1.99e+30 kg] * 0.5 = 8.379443947510975e+46 Joules

4-B Solar System level

Other Misconceptions
Also in the original blog, the author points out that Superman cannot be producing the same amount of force as Wally due to him not being connected to the Speed Force. As proven above, that claim is false, but I do want to examine the reason why Wally was completely unharmed after performing the feat while Superman was briefly knocked unconscious.

The explanation is actually a very easy one. Originally introduced in DC Comics' Showcase Vol. 1 #4 in 1956 as a "protective barrier" surrounding the Flash when he runs, the explanation was expanded upon 1994 stating that the Speed Force actually creates a "Speed Force Aura" around speedsters from any and all adverse effects produced from tapping into and using it. This aura allows Flash to negate friction, receive blows from superpowered enemies, survive tornadoes, etc. And yes, that includes the punches he delivers at super speeds, as if he didn't have the durability to withstand them, he'd be constantly shattering his fists.

However, while Flash has the Speed Force to negate all reactionary effects for the feats he performs, Superman must rely on his own durability to tank such massive recoil. This explains why he would appear injured while speedsters do not.

Conclusion
While this may not increase Superman's tier at all, Wally (and probably at least Barry) should receive this boost to their Tier and Attack Potency / Durability, as this is a far more realistic calculation than what is currently linked on Superman's profile as the power of the Infinite Mass Punch.

Final Tally:

Infinite Mass Punch = 8.379443947510975e+46 Joules (Solar System level)

Flash's Durability = Whatever is required for the speed feat he is performing / Equal to above
 
I was actually gonna do a thread on this. Math is more or less correct. The equation is wrong but the result is only off by 1 order of a magnitude.
 
@XHoSx

(Assuming Wally's fist is 0.559 kg)

You use this equation, putting in 0.559 kg as the rest mass and 1.989e30 kg as the relativistic math and then you work back to get velocity, which comes out to 2.99792457999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999988160168427e8 m/s, so literally just right at the speed of light.

Then you put the rest mass and the speed into here and you get 1.788e47 J.
 
Ah, I see. I only used the Kinetic Energy calculator since, per the rules of this wiki, Wally stated how heavy his fist had become, therefore giving me a rough speed (used between 93% and 99% per the rules) and an exact mass to calculate from.
 
As I mentioned within your blog, as far as I understand, it was never explicitly stated that Wally hit anybody with the force of a white dwarf star travelling near the speed of light, just that his own punch travelling near the speed of light felt like being hit with one.

As such, we cannot use this, sorry.

However, we can likely scale him from being able to hurt the white Martian in the first place, and other feats against similar beings.
 
Yes, you can probably scale him from the White Martian.
 
So is that how the equation work. This whole time, I didn't multiply light speed by itself in the formula. I need to go over the formula that I picked up whenever I attempt to evaluate fictional characters. A least this kind of formula would help me understand.
 
I got a question: what is a solar mass for both a white dwarf and the neutron star? It keeps giving me different answers when I looked it up.
 
This is a very old thread. It should probably be closed.
 
Hey, Antvasima, would you tell me what is the solar mass for both the white dwarf and the neutron star? It would be a good help.
 
I do not know. Sorry.

You can probably google it though.
 
I tried googling it, and it doesn't give me concrete numbers as it varies. Also, has anyone ever base off with Solar Mass in this community before?
 
White Dwarfs typically have a solar mass of .5 to .6. Its just hypercondensed into a Earth-sized volume.
 
Hank you for the reply. I will close this old thread then.
 
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