infinite battle speed for at least Metal Cooler

[Jeune_fou]

Who are concerned characters? Metal Cooler, possibly toei Goku, possibly characters form movie who were released after the Return of Cooler. Naturally it has no impact on canon characters.

I think they may have infinite speed. Our definition says "Infinite Speed (Able to travel any finite distance in zero time, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time. Teleportation does not count."

Despite the fact it involves teleportation, I think It'll count and I'll explain why. (normally this will show the whole battle with metal cooler)



There are 3 feats that suggest that and that involve attacks and reactions during zero time (before teleportation is over) which is why I believe it should count because it's not just mere teleportation: it's reaction to what happens during zero time that makes it interesting. I'll start with the least impressive feat at 6 min 46 metal cooler charges SSJ Vegeta and teleports to attack him. In this movie when characters teleport, the movie occasionally shows them moving in some sort of strange red, dark green and black space. Goku reacts to that and teleports to stop Metal Cooler. We can clearly see they move BEFORE they arrive at the end of teleportation (during the process of traveling from point A to point B via teleportation). I know teleportation isn't supposed to count but the fact they can move and goku reacts to metal cooler trying to attack vegeta before teleportation is over suggests they have infinite reaction speed because teleportation is the ability to move instantly, so in "zero time", to another location right?

So, any character who shows he reacts to stuff after teleportation starts and before it ends (so during this "zero time") should have infinite reaction speed right?


There are two even more impressive occurrences of that. At 1 min 58, Goku (base) and metal cooler do a battle of teleportations. At 2 min 14 they both enter the "red, darl green and black zone" which is used to indicate they're in the middle of an unfinished teleportation. At 2 min 24, Metal cooler grabs Goku's ankle still before the teleportation is done and Goku's face shows fear which proves Metal Cooler can attack him in the middle of a teleportation and Goku can react to that by understanding he was caught (they're both still in the strange zone). And all that before teleportation was over (so during "zero time"). At the very least, I believe it qualifies for infinite reaction speed and possibly infinite attack/battle speed too.


Final feat of that kind that might be the most important, at 7 min 05, Metal Cooler while he is not even in the red, dark green and black zone can see and react to Goku moving in zero time (in the middle of an unfinished teleportation) as he throws Vegeta on Goku. They do not even need to rely on the zone to do this kind of stuff.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Don't forget to put the tags, bro.

 

[segetero]

Bruh

 

[TiltedFN]

Will wait for others thoughts on this, but this has been a topic that's been brought up before, and for some reason we don't treat I.T as actual 0 time when it should be. I.T uses the subspace to teleport, said space lacks the concept of space and time, so when you actually use teleportation, it really does take 0 time since you spend time in that space which lacks it on a conceptual level, and even transcends it if you use the scan describing that space. So cooler moving mid I.T should qualify for some level of infinite speed, not to mention he can perform movements and even track goku while goku is using instant transmission. Even in games it portrays literal 0 time in the moral realms passing while they perform teleportation, like in bt1 with kid buu and goku fighting in subspace. I know people wont like that for whatever reason, but its supporting evidence. Even in GT this subspace is used to teleport so its supported. Not to mention when goku and cooler are moving in this space, they are in slow motion, which means they actually have perception and reactions high enough to perceive something that should be literally instant and take no time, they can move in this space. So that doesn't debunk I.T being instant really.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

『激突!! 100億パワーの~』ではメタルクウラも瞬間移動を使用、移動空間でのバトルまで描かれた。瞬間移動は劇場では「時間を超越した異空間を通る」という解釈のようだ。

In "Crash!! 10 Billion Power", Metal Cooler also uses teleportation, and even the battle in the moving space is drawn. In the theatrical version, teleportation seems to be interpreted as "passing through a different space that transcends time".

Goku Idoki Kukan ↑ Goku and Metal Cooler's movement space battle. Metal Cooler can move instantaneously with the power of a moving machine. [strength and strength]

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Will wait for others thoughts on this, but this has been a topic that's been brought up before, and for some reason we don't treat I.T as actual 0 time when it should be. I.T uses the subspace to teleport, said space lacks the concept of space and time, so when you actually use teleportation, it really does take 0 time since you spend time in that space which lacks it on a conceptual level, and even transcends it if you use the scan describing that space. So cooler moving mid I.T should qualify for some level of infinite speed, not to mention he can perform movements and even track goku while goku is using instant transmission. Even in games it portrays literal 0 time in the moral realms passing while they perform teleportation, like in bt1 with kid buu and goku fighting in subspace. I know people wont like that for whatever reason, but its supporting evidence. Even in GT this subspace is used to teleport so its supported.

All of this is well and good... If Meta Cooler was considered part of the Toei canon. It is not, thus, all of those tangential reasons (GT specially) kinda don't apply here.

The only things we can apply to it is the first Cooler movie and anime scenes up to that point.

And that's ignoring we have this explicit ruling against the subspace part anyways:

Timeless Voids, i.e. areas within a setting that lack time or exist outside of the flow of time, cannot be used to grant Infinite speed. One might be tempted to apply Speed = Distance/Time and say that time equals 0 in this situation, thus moving through this type of void should result in Infinite speed. However, in a Timeless Void, time does not exist, making Time = Not Applicable.

So in short, Time = Nonexistent or Not Applicable and Distance/Time = Undefined and cannot be determined under these conditions.

So even if we would consider them as applicable, wouldn't matter. All this to say: Cooler movie simply doesn't treat IT as actually instant, but so far above the speed of the characters that it's unfathomably above their normal combat speeds. That's simply what we can actually apply here.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

『激突!! 100億パワーの~』ではメタルクウラも瞬間移動を使用、移動空間でのバトルまで描かれた。瞬間移動は劇場では「時間を超越した異空間を通る」という解釈のようだ。

First quote doesn't matter as per our speed rules, second one is straight up flowery (equating his machine structure as the reason for his speed).

 

[TiltedFN]

All of this is well and good... If Meta Cooler was considered part of the Toei canon. It is not, thus, all of those tangential reasons (GT specially) kinda don't apply here.

The only things we can apply to it is the first Cooler movie and anime scenes up to that point.

And that's ignoring we have this explicit ruling against the subspace part anyways:


So even if we would consider them as applicable, wouldn't matter. All this to say: Cooler movie simply doesn't treat IT as actually instant, but so far above the speed of the characters that it's unfathomably above their normal combat speeds. That's simply what we can actually apply here.

Well would it really rule out showings that make this space consistent? I mean like its shown to function the same, so I was just using my examples more as supporting evidence. Also I wasn't talking about goku and cooler simply moving in this timeless void, moreso moving faster than instant transmission which can transport you to any place and dimension in 0 time, (yes 0 time does actually take place) which should be an infinite speed feat, cooler can catch up to goku and move mid instant transmission, and literally track goku in the void and move in the mean time while only goku is using I.T while cooler remains in one of the dimensions, so hes moving faster than 0.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

First quote doesn't matter as per our speed rules, second one is straight up flowery (equating his machine structure as the reason for his speed).

Do you have evidence to say that florida? Otherwise this argument doesn't work here.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Well would it really rule out showings that make this space consistent? I mean like its shown to function the same, so I was just using my examples more as supporting evidence. Also I wasn't talking about goku and cooler simply moving in this timeless void, moreso moving faster than instant transmission which can transport you to any place and dimension in 0 time, (yes 0 time does actually take place) which should be an infinite speed feat, cooler can catch up to goku and move mid instant transmission, and literally track goku in the void and move in the mean time, so hes moving faster than 0.

Except again, we can't use this timeless realm (again, even if applicable, I wouldn't agree with that anyways) as the basis for infinite speed. Quite simply, it being timeless doesn't matter.

 

[TiltedFN]

Except again, we can't use this timeless realm (again, even if applicable, I wouldn't agree with that anyways) as the basis for infinite speed. Quite simply, it being timeless doesn't matter.

Its not about the void being timeless, its more about what it means, its shown that 0 time passes in the dimensions while instant transmission takes place, so using I.T which accesses the void, you can move any finite or infinite distance in literal 0 time, since no time passes WHILE you are in the void, like when using Instant transmission, thats what makes IT instant, so if you can react and move before you rematerialize from instant transmission, that makes you have infinite speed, im not saying simply MOVING in a timeless void makes you infinite speed, moving DURING instant transmission is what gives you that speed, cooler can track goku in the main dimension while goku is teleporting, predict where he will come back to, he kicked the shit out of vegeta all before goku could reappear, but Im not gonna argue about it too much tbh. You have your opinion.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

To make this clear: The most I can agree with here is slapping a "possibly far higher" to Cooler. I don't agree with infinite per our standards, I don't agree the movie itself is consistent with treating IT as instant, and we can't properly quantify how much faster IT is without incurring into calc stacking.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Except again, we can't use this timeless realm (again, even if applicable, I wouldn't agree with that anyways) as the basis for infinite speed. Quite simply, it being timeless doesn't matter.

It's not that moving in a timeless realm here is infinite speed but they can react to people who enter said timeless realm and then move into where time doesn't pass from perspective of the world too.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

It's not that moving in a timeless realm here is infinite speed but they can react to people who enter said timeless realm and then move into where time doesn't pass from perspective of the world too.

So it's not really going against our standards.
So like
Cooler or Goku enters into 0 time realm
Cooler or Goku reacts to either of them entering the 0 time realm and enters it before the other one exits
Thus 0 time reactions

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Teleportation may not count as infinite speed by itself but I think if you tag someone mid-teleportation (after vanishing but before reappearing) then I think that should reasonably count. At the very least Metal Cooler being able to see where Goku is mid-Instant Transmission should surely have some sort of application to add to his profile.

I would personally consider giving Metal Cooler 'possibly Infinite combat speed' or something along those lines.

 

[TiltedFN]

Teleportation may not count as infinite speed by itself but I think if you tag someone mid-teleportation (after vanishing but before reappearing) then I think that should reasonably count. At the very least Metal Cooler being able to see where Goku is mid-Instant Transmission should surely have some sort of application to add to his profile.

I would personally consider giving Metal Cooler 'possibly Infinite combat speed' or something along those lines.

I already gave some reasons on why IT is actually instant, like 0 time.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I already gave some reasons on why IT is actually instant, like 0 time.

Yeah and I'm saying even without that I would still consider it grounds for possibly Infinite speed.

 

[Vietthai96]

You guy really having a party without me, anyway yeah, Meta Cooler movie characters should have up to Infinite speed combat speed since Cooler practically catch Goku mid-teleportation

Edit: i fixed to Meta Cooler movie cause current accepted continuity on the site

 

[Ednaxel2]

How do we treat the canon of the movies that're not canon to the anime?

 

[Jeune_fou]

How do we treat the canon of the movies that're not canon to the anime?

That's def a good question because if we check toei Goku's profile it mentions stuff from the janemba movie (since we treat it as canon to the anime). So if we treat The Fusion Reborn movie as canon to the anime we automatically treat all other movies (except the one with android 13, 14 and 15 and Dr Raichi's movie) as canon to the anime too because among villains who are brought back to life due to Janemba's chaos there are:
Goons or villains from all previous movies (except android 13, 14 and 15 and Dr Raichi) including goons of Garlic, goons of Turles, goons of dr Willow, goons of Slug, Goons of Bojack (+ Bojack himself). So logically it should validates Garlic's movie as canon to the anime (logical considering the filler arc), Dr Willow's movie, Turles' movie, Slug's, but also Bojack's movie.
But more importantly, among people who are brought back to life there is Paragus so logically it should also means Broly's movies might be considered canon to the anime since his father appears in Fusion Reborn.
And among other important figures, there's Salza (cooler's right arm from the revenge of Cooler) among people who are brought back to life in Fusion Reborn. Which should also validates Cooler's movies as canon to the anime.

Anyway thanks a lot everyone for sharing your opinion about that and even if we "just" do update Cooler's profile it'll already be an excellent thing.

 

[Ednaxel2]

That's def a good question because if we check toei Goku's profile it mentions stuff from the janemba movie (since we treat it as canon to the anime). So if we treat The Fusion Reborn movie as canon to the anime we automatically treat all other movies (except the one with android 13, 14 and 15 and Dr Raichi's movie) as canon to the anime too because among villains who are brought back to life due to Janemba's chaos there are:
Goons or villains from all previous movies (except android 13, 14 and 15 and Dr Raichi) including goons of Garlic, goons of Turles, goons of dr Willow, goons of Slug, Goons of Bojack (+ Bojack himself). So logically it should validates Garlic's movie as canon to the anime (logical considering the filler arc), Dr Willow's movie, Turles' movie, Slug's, but also Bojack's movie.
But more importantly, among people who are brought back to life there is Paragus so logically it should also means Broly's movies might be considered canon to the anime since his father appears in Fusion Reborn.
And among other important figures, there's Salza (cooler's right arm from the revenge of Cooler) among people who are brought back to life in Fusion Reborn. Which should also validates Cooler's movies as canon to the anime.

Anyway thanks a lot everyone for sharing your opinion about that and even if we "just" do update Cooler's profile it'll already be an excellent thing.

Wouldn't that just invalidate Fusion Reborn then? Since all of these movies together bring in a stupid amount of contradictions to the anime. These can also just be regarded references or different versions of the characters

 

[Nierre]

following

 

[Killerdrone123]

I mean we have a scan that says i.t subspace transcends time at least shouldn't this prove that this is a timeless realm and character using it to teleport are teleporting in 0 time via it thus reacting to them or catching them mid teleportation should be atleast infinite speed

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I'd say easier explanation to understand is that this realm is used for 0 time travel in the living world so for someone in the living world to react to a person who is inside this realm before they leave it would require said reactions to take place in a span of 0 time.

Infinite speed is not just being proposed for moving in a timeless realm. There is nuance to this that goes beyond just "timeless realm" and wouldn't violate standards.

 

[Kroneii1]

Following for now.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Cooler or Goku enters into 0 time realm

Its not 0 time, its Time N/A. Its why the timeframe doesn't work, as its never a factor.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Its not 0 time, its Time N/A. Its why the timeframe doesn't work, as its never a factor.

But the thing is they enter this realm to perform instanteous travel in the living world which would take 0 time from the perspective of the living world and Goku or Cooler from the living world can react to their opponent mid teleportation.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But the thing is they enter this realm to perform instanteous travel in the living world which would take 0 time from the perspective of the living world

You'd need to prove no time passes in the living world for the teleportation. There being any delay in travel voids it automatically, which if you're using GT gets rid of it since Super 17 can react to IT with just his hearing.

So I'm not for an infinite speed upgrade.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

You'd need to prove no time passes in the living world for the teleportation. There being any delay in travel voids it automatically, which if you're using GT gets rid of it since Super 17 can react to IT with just his hearing.

So I'm not for an infinite speed upgrade.

Meta Cooler movie exists outside of GT or Toei canon.

 

[Kroneii1]

You'd need to prove no time passes in the living world for the teleportation.

It is mentioned that the space they enter transcends time.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Meta Cooler movie exists outside of GT or Toei canon.

You'd shoot the argument of the subspace straight in the foot right there, as that's primarily for Toei canon, expanded upon with GT.

 

[TiltedFN]

You'd need to prove no time passes in the living world for the teleportation. There being any delay in travel voids it automatically, which if you're using GT gets rid of it since Super 17 can react to IT with just his hearing.

So I'm not for an infinite speed upgrade.

This is wrong, super 17 will react to the vibrations in the air when goku rematerializes, thats how he can predict where he goes, its just really fast reaction speed, idk where you got that hearing thing from, it didn't show super 17 reacting mid IT or something. There is also a game that has an iteration of subspace where 0 time passes in the mortal realm when they are in subspace. The cooler movie also shows it being instant the first time they use it, and then we get the feats of them reacting completely before they appear again. Also IT clearly takes 0 time to move in, theres multiple instances of it being shown to not take literally any time, in bt1 the subspace is actually shown again, 0 time passes in the living realm. , ,

 

[Qawsedf234]

It is mentioned that the space they enter transcends time.

That's not relevant for the reaction feat, since the only thing that matters is how long it takes Goku to go to that subspace and back. Which has finite levels of speed.

You'd shoot the argument of the subspace straight in the foot right there, as that's primarily for Toei canon, expanded upon with GT.

In that case I'm really just not for it then. Just list me as disagree.