Indexing scaling chains and calc values

[ZillertheBucko]

We should really start indexing scaling chains and calc values on the wiki far better than we currently do
There is a recurring issue that I think we can all relate to, and that is having to scroll through a billion pages just to find some calc value, and having to go through link after link to find who scales to who, and when an upscale occurs
My request is: We change the standard format of profiles, so that the calc values are clearly listed in the "Tier" section with the calcs linked within the values, as well as adding a new section for scaling chains

Using the Garou profile as an example, here is a prototype version of what this might look like:

Tier: 6-A [2.46 petatons], 5-C [69.44 exatons] with reactive evolution (was able to shatter earth's crust)

and scaling chain indexing should look like

Scale: Garou [69.44 exatons] >> evolved forms (transformed twice) > Sage Centipede [2.46 petatons]

the details can be worked out, but I think this is really a much needed change for the conveniency of versus threads, and just general navigation of the website

 

[Just_Butchering]

Personally, I think it's better to have the calcs and scaling explained on the main verse page, like Naruto does for example, and MHA as well.

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

i like this a lot but it would also be a gargantuan amount of work drastically affecting literally every single profile on the wiki so ill wait to say anything

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

i like this a lot but it would also be a gargantuan amount of work drastically affecting literally every single profile on the wiki so ill wait to say anything

Ye, what Wyatt said. Honestly, this topic sounds like it belongs in staff discussions thread and not, well... here. Although, while it will probably make things mess, why can't scaling chains be on the verse page itself and not on profiles?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Personally, I think it's better to have the calcs and scaling explained on the main verse page, like Naruto does for example, and MHA as well.

Sometimes that still doesn’t completely solve the issue of profiles not making it clear enough who scales to what without having to click through multiple profiles, since different calcs in the same tier in a verse could have different values
And having it right on the profile would just make it incredibly easy to access the exact values and scaling for vs matches

i like this a lot but it would also be a gargantuan amount of work drastically affecting literally every single profile on the wiki so ill wait to say anything

It would be a change done over time, and for a lot of the profiles in the same verses it could almost be done copy paste, depending on the size

Ye, what Wyatt said. Honestly, this topic sounds like it belongs in staff discussions thread and not, well... here. Although, while it will probably make things mess, why can't scaling chains be on the verse page itself and not on profiles?

If it gets enough traction then staff would probably move it to staff discussion
anyways it’s not really that difficult, all it takes is putting a calc value link, like many profiles already do in their AP section, and the scaling would just be the replacement for having url chains clicking from profile to profile, instead of having “AP: 7-C (should be comparable to X character)” leading to that repeated, you’d just scrap that and have a scaling chain, and then just trim off the front and copy paste that to whoever’s right below
And it doesn’t have to be absolutely mandatory, although much preferred, but also everybody ignores standard tactics so….

 

[Just_Butchering]

I still think just clarifying this on the verse page would be easier and more practical. Not only there are less verse pages than character pages for the editing, but also one can go more in-depth about the scaling chains and display the calculations.

So, if you don't know to who X scale to, or why he gets that rating and more or less what it's its exact value, you can simply click on the verse link on the profile and read it there.

 

[Antvasima]

We should continue to keep our tier sections comparatively succinct/brief and to the point, but the attack potency sections should obviously include the scaling information that is necessary for easily understanding the reasoning.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Alternatively, we could have the calculated values listed right next to the namesakes of the tiers they scale to
in example, "Moon Level [69.44 exatons]" or so
I don't think it's necessary to put them right in the tiers section, but I do think putting them in the AP and dura sections in plains sight would be very helpful for the same reasons

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Ideally, rather than altering the presentation of the pages, a blog post can be created detailing the scaling chain of a series and then can be attached to the verse page.

 

[Antvasima]

Ideally, rather than altering the presentation of the pages, a blog post can be created detailing the scaling chain of a series and then can be attached to the verse page.

That seems like a better idea, yes.

 

[Aachintya31]

It depends on the verse supporters how they have organised the scaling chains on verse's main page.
Ziller your proposal makes the pages looks untidy to me.
As far as the issue ,I agree ,it's a problem we face in versus thread, not that big though.

 

[KLOL506]

Ideally, rather than altering the presentation of the pages, a blog post can be created detailing the scaling chain of a series and then can be attached to the verse page.

Usually a blog post gets outdated pretty quickly and needs active supporters to maintain. Which is problematic.

But calc values are almost always mentioned beside accepted calc blogs as is the rule, and those who scale are also usually mentioned in another bracket beside it.

 

[azontr]

Mash Burnedead

Mash Burnedead is the protagonist of Mashle: Magic and Muscles and a student at Easton Magic Academy. Mash was born with no magic in a world where magic is the norm, where those without magic are persecuted and killed. In order to protect him, Mash’s adoptive father raised him far away from...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This profile is an excellent example of this proposal.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Mash Burnedead

Mash Burnedead is the protagonist of Mashle: Magic and Muscles and a student at Easton Magic Academy. Mash was born with no magic in a world where magic is the norm, where those without magic are persecuted and killed. In order to protect him, Mash’s adoptive father raised him far away from...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This profile is an excellent example of this proposal.

holy shit it's beautiful
this....I like that. This profile is nice

 

[Aachintya31]

Mash Burnedead

Mash Burnedead is the protagonist of Mashle: Magic and Muscles and a student at Easton Magic Academy. Mash was born with no magic in a world where magic is the norm, where those without magic are persecuted and killed. In order to protect him, Mash’s adoptive father raised him far away from...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This profile is an excellent example of this proposal.

This looks good ngl.

 

[Antvasima]

Usually a blog post gets outdated pretty quickly and needs active supporters to maintain. Which is problematic.

That is a very good point. Agreed.

But calc values are almost always mentioned beside accepted calc blogs as is the rule, and those who scale are also usually mentioned in another bracket beside it.

Please elaborate regarding what you mean exactly.

 

[Antvasima]

Mash Burnedead

Mash Burnedead is the protagonist of Mashle: Magic and Muscles and a student at Easton Magic Academy. Mash was born with no magic in a world where magic is the norm, where those without magic are persecuted and killed. In order to protect him, Mash’s adoptive father raised him far away from...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This profile is an excellent example of this proposal.

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Andytrenom @Ultima_Reality @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz

What do you think about this suggested formatting style?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't think listing the Energy/TNTe numbers right next to the tiers is necessary and prefer to have them listed in the respective verse pages' accepted calculations section, which is something we already have rules for and try to follow for a lot of verses.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Well, that format isn't bad... and we already have characters with values listed like the speed on Dragon Ball Super characters. Though having those values/scaling chains on the verse page should be enough.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not a fan of that format personally. Any mention of actual energy values like [121 Gigatons] should be put inside of notes instead of displayed, bolded, in the main area of the stats section.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the replies. It seems like we are currently leaning towards not accepting this suggestion then.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Putting the values in the justification of the profiles makes it much easier for readers to understand. They don't have to research for 30 minutes just to find out the value of the character, it's straightforward and simple. This also removes the problem that you don't know which link is a scan and which is a calculation

 

[Propellus]

Mash Burnedead

Mash Burnedead is the protagonist of Mashle: Magic and Muscles and a student at Easton Magic Academy. Mash was born with no magic in a world where magic is the norm, where those without magic are persecuted and killed. In order to protect him, Mash’s adoptive father raised him far away from...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This profile is an excellent example of this proposal.

I also do think this kind of formatting seems pretty good

 

[KLOL506]

Please elaborate regarding what you mean exactly.

On verse pages, whenever an accepted calculation is added, we always note down the exact values in the calculation that was accepted, and we note down who scales to it.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

This idea of "Click on the verse page to know the value" is not a good thing imo. In most cases it is so confusing that it is not even funny. Just look at Bleach, Fairy Tail and Black Clover

Besides the fact that not every reader outside the site will know that one has to look at the verse page to know the value of a single character

 

[KLOL506]

This idea of "Click on the verse page to know the value" is not a good thing imo. In most cases it is so confusing that it is not even funny. Just look at Bleach, Fairy Tail and Black Clover

IDK fam, I am perfectly fine with reading all the values there, and it'd be even better if the calc values said who scales to what, which further narrows down the scaling chain.

Besides the fact that not every reader outside the site will know that one has to look at the verse page to know the value of a single character

That's kind of the gist isn't it?

That readers should first be able to figure out what the verse is and what it's about before going into the profiles willy nilly.

If anything, this should be a recommendation at this point for those new to the site if it isn't already a rule.

 

[KLOL506]

So far what I am concerned with is that blogs involving scaling chains for verses like Dragon Ball can quickly become updated if it is not about a series that has finished recently, or is undergoing revisions, and the user might not be available to carry the edits out. Should we make a measure to make separate scaling chain pages for verses? Or would that be too much to handle?

 

[Propellus]

Although I have no idea how indexing scaling chains onto profiles is going to work as it gets tedious overtime and sometimes some verses aren't the kind of verse to have scaling chains period

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I am perfectly fine with reading all the values there, and it'd be even better if the calc values said who scales to what, which further narrows down the scaling chain.

Why not make it easy and put the calculation value on the character page? Some scaling chains are gigantic, putting it on the verse page is not going to be a good thing. Just look at the scaling chain size of a verse like Mashle and imagine it all written on the verse page
Or we can be simplistic and simply put the value without a proper justification, which is not a good thing

That readers should first be able to figure out what the verse is and what it's about before going into the profiles willy nilly.

People often research only the character, not the whole verse.

 

[KLOL506]

Why not make it easy and put the calculation value on the character page? Some scaling chains are gigantic, putting it on the verse page is not going to be a good thing. Just look at the scaling chain size of a verse like Mashle and imagine it written on the verse page

Honestly I can already tell Mashle's page looks bloated with the brackets that weren't meant for anything else other than hyperlinks, imagine if you try cramming that scaling chain into this profile and make it even worse. Putting all of this in the Notes section would be a much better alternative, but even that runs around the same problem of cramming in a gigantic scaling chain.

Verse pages are where you go to see all the characters involved and what the verse is about. That's where all the nitty gritty details about their strength usually go to. "Power of the verse" exists for a reason.

Or we can be simplistic and simply put the value without a proper justification, which is not a good thing

No. Just put the justification, link said justification to the calc blog or the scaling chain page/blog and end it there. We're not here to handhold or idiot-proof everything you see before you.

People often research only the character, not the whole verse.

Then it's kinda their fault. People shouldn't be going in to stuff like this without having a basic idea about the verses which their characters represent.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Although I have no idea how indexing scaling chains onto profiles is going to work as it gets tedious overtime and sometimes some verses aren't the kind of verse to have scaling chains period

scaling chains could be completely optional, similarly to how many profiles do not include standards tactics, but regardless could be a category for profiles that willingly go more in depth

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Honestly I can already tell Mashle's page looks bloated with the brackets that weren't meant for anything else other than hyperlinks, imagine if you try cramming that scaling chain into this profile and make it even worse

I will not put the whole scaling chain in a single justification/character, I will put the values + a blog about the scaling. It's not as if I have to write the names of dozens of characters for a single character

Verse pages are where you go to see all the characters involved and what the verse is about

Exactly. People think about the verse page as a center for everything, not as a place where you will finally find the value of some random character
Sure, you can mention the values and blogs there, and thats right and correct, but for heaven's sake, why can the values only be written there? It costs nothing to put the value of a character in its justification. Would save people's time

Just put the justification, link said justification to the calc blog or the scaling chain page/blog and end it there.

Sure, but why we can't put it on the character's page?

Then it's kinda their fault. People shouldn't be going in to stuff like this without having a basic idea about the verses which their characters represent.

Come on

 

[KLOL506]

I will not put the whole scaling chain in a single justification/character, I will put the values + a blog about the scaling. It's not as if I have to write the names of dozens of characters for a single character

If you're linking the blog into the justification that kind of completely defeats the purpose of putting the values right beside it.

Exactly. People think about the verse page as a center for everything, not as a place where you will finally find the value of some random character
Sure, you can mention the values and blogs there, and thats right and correct, but for heaven's sake, why can the values only be written there? It costs nothing to put the value of a character in its justification. Would save people's time

Because of two things: Redundancy and bloat.

Sure, but why we can't put it on the character's page?

Read above.

Come on

I'm being serious.

If you can't piece A to B together on the verse page alone by double checking all the calculations prior to making a match, that's 100% on you. We're not here to spoonfeed you everything you desire to know, there must be some sort of self-reliance here as well.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

If you're linking the blog into the justification that kind of completely defeats the purpose of putting the values right beside it.

No
The values will be in the profile for a quick check
The blog serves to deepen your understanding of the scaling

Because of two things: Redundancy and bloat.

Mh, no

If you can't piece A to B together on the verse page alone by double checking all the calculations prior to making a match, that's 100% on you

My man, I'm thinking about readers outside the site

 

[Andytrenom]

I think listing the values in the page is good, for calcs that scale to a large portion of but not all characters it would be hard to specify who scales to an AP value in the verse page.


Also whether the scaling only goes on the verse page or on the profiles, I think a greater effort should be made to keep the scaling updated, because right now it's quite easy to simply not never add mention the relevant calc somewhere

 

[Antvasima]

On verse pages, whenever an accepted calculation is added, we always note down the exact values in the calculation that was accepted, and we note down who scales to it.

Thank you for the reply. You expressed yourself a bit unclearly previously.

Readers should first be able to figure out what the verse is and what it's about before going into the profiles willy nilly.

If anything, this should be a recommendation at this point for those new to the site if it isn't already a rule.

A brief information notice about this is likely a good idea. I am not sure where we should properly place that information in our wiki's front page though, especially as around 70% of our visitors use mobile phones to view our wiki, and the mobile front page layout format does not allow us to add text segments as far as I am aware.

 

[Antvasima]

I think listing the values in the page is good, for calcs that scale to a large portion of but not all characters it would be hard to specify who scales to an AP value in the verse page.

Also whether the scaling only goes on the verse page or on the profiles, I think a greater effort should be made to keep the scaling updated, because right now it's quite easy to simply not never add mention the relevant calc somewhere

Thank you for the reply. I am personally largely agreeing with KLOL506 though. It would be far too enormous a project to make significant changes to all of our character profile pages that are scaled from calculations, and then continuously update them in the correct manner for years after every single revision to their statistics. Our current system of easy scaling overviews via our verse pages is much easier and more realistic for us to continuously deal with.

That said, I definitely do not mind at all if it is clarified better in a large number of our character profile pages which others characters and calculation blogs that they scale from via embedded links.

 

[Propellus]

Although there isn't really a problem with the idea itself, it would be better if it was optional instead of mandatory

 

[GyroNutz]

Definitely not mandatory, I think there are specific cases where it would be helpful to specify the numerical value though, for instance when there's a lot of calcs for a verse (specifically in the same tier) or a lot of scaling chains/multipliers within the same tier. But even then a well written profile should be able to communicate that information in other neater ways.

 

[Antvasima]

Definitely not mandatory, I think there are specific cases where it would be helpful to specify the numerical value though, for instance when there's a lot of calcs for a verse (specifically in the same tier) or a lot of scaling chains/multipliers within the same tier. But even then a well written profile should be able to communicate that information in other neater ways.

Yes, agreed.