Important: Help needed with Marvel speed scaling

[Antvasima]

Continued from here:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/560479

Basically, I and Matthew had a discussion regarding our previous combat speed scaling for Marvel characters, and agreed that the handbooks were far to contradictory to use for this purpose (for example, they claim that the Silver Surfer is slower than Spider-Man).

In lack of better options, we initially planned to scale the physically low level characters from the Black Panther, the mid level superhumans from Spider-Ma, and the high level powerhouses from Thor.

However, given some protests to this approach, we are currently considering if we should use the following method instead:

Close to Street level character: Scale to the Black Panther

Earthbound (non-space-flying) superhumans: Scale to Spider-Man

Flying cosmic characters: Scale to Thor

The problem is that, in the last category, characters such as the Super-Skrull, Terrax, Thanos, and Quasar, have never been shown as particularly swift either, in terms of personal feats.

Here are all the Marvel Comics character profiles available in this wiki:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Marvel_Comics

Help with input regarding which of them that should be scaled from Black Panther, Spider-Man, and Thor, respectively, would be very appreciated.

Edit:

It has now been suggested that we should largely continue with the handbook speed scaling, but simply make exceptions for characters that are able to fly through outer space at MFTL+ speeds.

After considering the issue, I think that I favour this solution, but would appreciate input, and possibly help with reverting the Thor scaling edits for the characters in a list that I provided in a post below.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Well, I don't follow Marvel comics to closely so I apologize if this doesn't fit with how they work, but IMO if a character can consistently match a character blow for blown then their combat speed should scale. Maybe not movement speed, unless they have showings for that.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, consistency is one approach, although given that Marvel uses the "anybody can fight anybody, no matter how little sense it makes" storytelling trope as a rule, it is not perfect.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

So, even the characters like Mr. Fantastic are going to scale from Black Panther?


Also, what about Iron Man? His speed stats is the same for both normal and armor, so what are we gonna do with him?


Keep him at Subsonic normally via scaling from human Ben Grimm and Hypersonic+/MHS for his suit?

 

[Antvasima]

We will probably have to place armorless Iron Man and Mister Fantastic at Unknown speed, since they are clearly supposed to be much slower than the Panther.

With the armor, I suppose that he could scale from Spider-Man.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

But Reed has Subsonic feats


And Ben Grimm has a subsonicfeat in his human from


So Subsonic for regular humans should be ok


Also, we don't "Athlete" at Supersonic+?


I agree with the change to MFTL+ for top tiers, but other than that, I don't see the necesity of other changes

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Did we conclude the quicksilver thing yet?

 

[Antvasima]

So, based on Aiden's comments, should we change back to the previous handbook-based system, with the exception of that top tiers are scaled from Thor?

We have changed quite a lot of characters to MFTL+ already (lists are available in the last thread). Should most of them (specifically, the ones who cannot fly at MFTL+ speeds through outer space) be changed back to their previous ratings?

 

[Antvasima]

@Peter No, I do not think so.

 

[Antvasima]

After giving the issue some thought, it may in fact be simplest to continue with the handbook scaling for characters that are not able to travel through outer space at MFTL+ speeds (combined with scaling from personal speed feats for cases such as Quicksilver).

This would mean reverting to the edits to the previous speed levels, along with removing any scaling from Thor, for the following characters:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Hulk_(Marvel_Comics)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thanos (Maybe. He was recently portrayed as capable of interstellar flight in a Brian Bendis story)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ghost_Rider_(Marvel_Comics)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Red_She-Hulk

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Apocalypse_(Marvel_Comics)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/A-Bomb

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/She-Hulk

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Wonder_Ma

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Hercules_(Marvel_Comics)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ultron_(Marvel_Comics) (Maybe. He was portrayed as capable of interstellar flight in an event involving the Phalanx, and in recent Avengers issues)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Red_Hulk

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Abomination_(Marvel_Comics)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Blue_Marvel (Maybe. I am uncertain if he can travel vast interstellar distances)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Loki_(Marvel_Comics) (Maybe)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Namor_(Marvel_Comics)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Destroyer_(Marvel) (Maybe. Didn't it serve as a herald of Galactus for a while?)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mangog_(Marvel_Comics) (Maybe. It may be capable of space flight. I just do not remember seeing it for myself)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Rogue_(Marvel_Comics)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Skaar

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Onslaught

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Champion_of_the_Universe (Maybe. He cannot fly without external equipment)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ares_(Marvel)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Balder

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Heimdall

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Bor_Buriso (Maybe. It stands to reason that he could travel through outer space, given that his son Odin can)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Durok_the_Destroyer

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kurse_(Marvel_Comics)

 

[Promestein]

I don't think it'd be a good idea to reverse all of these speed ratings when scaling for it is fairly consistent and not absurd.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I wholeheartedly agree with Prom.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, with the characters capable of interstellar flight, we have some form of proof for their speeds, but for the rest, there really is no particular correspondence between raw power and displayed speed levels.

Wall level characters are more of less consistently able to keep up with Thor, and similar cosmic heavyweights, in terms of speed, just like Mid-Tiers like Spider-Man, or slow heavyweights like the Juggernaut.

Again, it is Marvel, one of the most incoherent franchises ever created.

 

[Naitez]

I thought DC was just as incoherent.

 

[Antvasima]

No, Marvel is considerably worse in this regard. At least going by my experience.

 

[Naitez]

Well when you have Thor having pre-Crisis like powers back in the 60s and the 70s to a more subdued powerset and power level now, there's bound to be more inconsistencies. It's even worse since there are no Crisis events to excuse all of this.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Marvel currently has a longer continuity of inconsistency.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Again, we should go be Weight Classes and Scaling, and feats of characters matching each other.

It's so simple.

Also, with all due respect Antvasima, don't be absolute. Don't either try scaling everyone, or underscale everyone. Both extremes help no one and are not good solutions.

What we should do is use "Weight Classes". Ultron is equal / superior to Thor in combat every single time? He should scale. And we'd follow a similar logic. Hulk and Hercules should scale to Thor. Juggernault should not. He's an X-Men villain. Consistency is key.

Also, if a character is 100% featless and the profile is going off solely guidebook status for strength feats, said profile should not exist. Best to have less profiles, but those be good, then a cluster of worthless ones.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We should also look at EndlessMike' calculations, we'll find plenty of interesting feats.

https://forums.hero-academia.com/xf...it-feats-finale-for-now.33907/#comment-223524 Mach 3000 Ant-Man reactions.

https://forums.hero-academia.com/xf...inoffs-bit-feats-part-2.26455/#comment-201502 Island Level Feat for Sue and Continent Level Feat for Human Torch, as well as good speed feats.

https://forums.hero-academia.com/xf...wo-in-one-bit-feats-part-2-final-tally.25405/ More good speed feats, and Tier 4 Black Bolt.

https://forums.hero-academia.com/xf...noffs-misc-marvel-bit-feats-the-second.25173/ More Tier 6 feats for the Fantastic Four.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I was not suggesting that we should remove all scaling to Thor's MFTL+ speed feats, just for the characters that cannot fly through outer space, and have no good speed feats of their own.

That said, I really do not think that there is any remotely perfect solution here.

The case is not that I am trying to be difficult, just that I have serious problems trying to find the least bad option, and think that it would constitute far less work to go with this approach than to rescale every single Marvel character profile mostly based on our intuitions, which could leave a huge mess.

I am open for better suggestions though.

Also, I agree that we probably have quite a lot of unreliable Marvel profiles without feats of their own. Which ones would you prefer to remove?

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I would appreciate considerably more staff input regarding which approach that we should take.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Before I give bigger input, just wanted to say that I appreciate that you're being extremely open to suggestions on this.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am trying, but given that it is Marvel, it feels like things will go wrong no matter what approach I take.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I still think Weight Classes and Feats should go beyond everything else, hence why I'm against MFTL+ Quicksilver when feats contradict it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Do we need more weight classes than just high-tiers, mid-tiers, and low-tiers though?

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I'm still in the same


Characters who scale from Thor gave the MFTL+

Everybody else is ok where the are


Subsonic for normal is consistent (Reed has two feats, and Human Ben Grimm has 1)


Supersonic+ for Athletes (Hawkeye is very consistent, and characters like Daredevil are also consistent on this)


Hypersonic+ for Peak Human (I can't said if is consistent, but at least they are faster than Athletes, I guess?)


Enhanced Humans have no feats


MHS for Superhumans is ok

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so you think that all the powerhouse characters should retain their scaling from Thor, and the rest should continue to have their current speed statistics?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I do.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Imo, maybe something like:

Low - Normals to around Hawkeye tier (Up to Supersonic+)

Mid - Whoever is above Hawkeye, to Cap, or Panther since he has the feat (Around Hypersonic+)

High - Iron Man to Spidey (Sub-rel to Relativistic, basically, non-FTL border)

Non-cosmic Super - Hulk, Herc, QS (FTL+ and up; the highest people here in portrayal or showings (like QS who is the most known Earth-based speedster) have Possibly MFTL+)

Cosmic Super - Thor, BRB, Glad, Thanos and up, basically most people who can go to space without a craft of sorts (MFTL+ and up)

This is for reflexes or speed in general, though I may be wrong somewhere or everywhere since I didn't look at the Marvel page, and I don't know half the people in that list anyways.

Anyways, just throwing my 2 cents here.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Oh wait. Okay, tiering for scaling. Ha. Disregard my post. I thought it was tiering in general. Sorry.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Okay, so you think that all the powerhouse characters should retain their scaling from Thor, and the rest should continue to have their current speed statistics?

Basically

Also, I think that Iron Man (with Armor) should be scale Spider-Man rather that from the sub-rel feat

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

https://outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/13-general-obd-terms/193-marvel-power-rankings

This is how the OBD divides the Marvel powers.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, those are power level rankings though. Do they use them for speed as well?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Their wiki is very incomplete, but I think that a mixture of Power Classes / Tiers and actual feats would be best for speed. In most cases, Cosmic Powerhouses should scale to Thor and the like, but if it's contradicted by the typical depiction, they shouldn't.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I have limited ideas about how to make that work in practice though.

It would probably be easiest to go with Aiden's suggestion.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Something like that, yes;

 

[Antvasima]

So, should I revert the changes to the speed section of the Marvel Character Statistics Scaling page, and simply mention "Take note that, due to extreme contradictions with the handbook statistics, we make an exception for high-tier characters that can be scaled to Thor", or something similar, at the bottom instead?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think it should probably eventually go through a larger rewrite, but for now that seems like a good solution

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Basically

Also, I think that Iron Man (with Armor) should be scale Spider-Man rather that from the sub-rel feat

Why? Iron man has plenty of speed feats to use for himself