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Immortality (Type 4 & 8) revision of a bunch of characters from different verses

DontTalk

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So I basically just looked through a bunch of pages of Immortal characters and a good amount of them had some problems with type 4 & 8 immortality.

So I thought instead of making one thread for each I would gather all of those in one (should hopefully be ok since it shouldn't be such a great and debatable change to them).

If there are other characters you know that have the same issues might as well bring them up here as well.

Lacks description what type 8 immortality is reliant o
This is a typical mistake it seems. If you give a character type 8 immortality you logically have to mention what exactly this immortality is dependent on. Otherwise nobody knows what would have to be destroyed to kill the character. Pages that lack such description that I spontaneously found are:

Immortality Type 4
After a recent question I had about immortality type 4, the description was slightly changed towards clearly specifiying that type 4 is immortality granted by a god (a god other than a user itself, as granted would imply). So I suspect for many characters that have type 4 this doesn't apply. Some to which it might not apply (I want a second opinion on those):

To Arus magic god should not even have it listed as "possibly" in my opinion. Those are:

Possible others are:

  • Asriel Dreemurr (as strongest character (aside the dog) I think he wouldn't have immortality granted by some other entity, but I don't know)
  • Some Masadaverse Characters (Don't know which might be affected, but for example for Haju as strongest god it seems strange to have immortality from an external source)

Input on this would be appreciated.
 
Hmm. Don't remember nor know why Type 8 is used for the Masada Gods. Though i do know that Reinhard's existence is dependent on Mercurius' existence. Which aside from being BS af, is Type 8 from what Reppuzan thought of it as. Hajun, i am not quite sure why you assume that? IIRC, Hajun's infinite power thing comes this being known as the Tumor, which is like his source of rage and.....whatever that's known of him. I may very well be missing about that then but so far i know he has a source that cause him to rise his "Taikyoku" constantly....

Aside all that, i agree on that some or so Type 8 ones don't have any details about why they have it and all and of Type 4 now not being able to apply to others that have it due to the change.
 
I agree, Immortality type 8 pages need to have a justification for their rating. We can contact people knowledgeable in their respected verses to figure out why.
 
Uh. As far as I'm aware, this is the original definition of Type 4 Immortality:

4: Immortality via Godhood or protection from a deity

This kind of immortality is granted by a God or is given by virtue of Godhood. Only a God of higher status can override it.

I dunno why we changed to something outside its original meaning.
 
@CrossverseCrisis: I don't know much about masadaverse. I mainly mentioned it because a lot of characters which I thought weren't to interconnected had it and because of Hajun.

The reason why I mentioned Hajun is similar as for asriel. Having type 4 as strongest character in a verse would imply that there is a god weaker than that character, which grants the strongest character immortality.

That is not impossible, but rather unusual.

(and just checking to make sure doesn't hurt)


I always thought Hajuns tumor was part of him and not something that one could seperately attack... well if it comes from such a seperate entity, then him having type 4 is of course correct.
 
This is because we are missing a very important immortality type. This would be the immortality of a meta-existence that is outside the normal laws of life and death, space and time, etc. (this is pretty much 1-A immortality). I mean, Type 5 should generally be reserved for High 1-As, while type 4 is too loosely defined. I think we should add an Type 9 immortality for meta beings, as they can only be killed by beings of a similar or even greater level.

To explain this "Type 9 Immortality" (Meta-Immortality) I suggest this description: "Immortal status of higher cosmic entities that are not alive or dead in a conventional sense, standing outside the ordinary laws of reality, time and dimensionality (of any number). The destruction of such a being, if possible, can only be done by a being of a similar or higher order."

This would explain the immortality of the Demonbane, Masadaverse god tiers, etc. Since they don't have Type 5 immortality.

No this is not immortality via Regenerationn either. Hadou/Gudou gods are nondual, standing outside the realms of duality, and thus can only be destroyed by a similar magnitude. Regen is not involved. They can only be destroyed by a being of a higher order. The same case is with Demonbane, essentially. This is also not type 4 immortality, because this immortality is not granted by godhood nor the virtue of godhood because what if there is a case where the being is not a god? It can't be godhood then. Again Type 4 is loosely defined.
 
That's what Ven just told me. I mean, it makes sense, that's what Type 4 should be. But it isn't, or at least not for every character, I think.
 
I've fixed Ares.

As for the others, Mordekaiser should not have it as his reworked lore has his servants revive him each time he's slain.

It's probably best to ask Azathoth about Asriel.

Not 100% sure about the others though.
 
The Saint Seiya deities all had Type 4 Immortality when the definition was "Immortality via Godhood".

I don't want us to limit the definition to only mean Immortality granted by a God.
 
I mean, it's just that we don't know what "immortality because I'm a god" does. In application, it just seems like type 2 or type 1.
 
Oh well, then just let discuss changes to the immortality page here if everyone is already doing so.

Regarding the immortality via godhood: I had the impression that it was often given, based on that formulation, if a character happened to be a god and had any form of immortality.

If that was not what it meant than we can change it so that it is clear that, in order to qualify, the character must have proven that only a character of higher power can override their immortality.


Then again with such a definition suggested, I feel like it also needs many changes and brings a lot of problems with it.

One question is: How exactly would a character ever proof that there is absolutely no method of killing it except by a being of higher power?

Or in other words: Which feats do we specifically require a character to have in order to have this form of immortality?

I find this difficult, because it requires knowledge of every possible way to get rid of a character and then that a character has shown that none of those work.

(It's essentially the idea of proving complete immunity to almost everything)

Edit: Just try proving that someone is generally immune to logic manipulation from a weaker being. That is logically impossible to prove.
 
That's fair. But still, "Godhood" is the virtue of being a god, which only applies to certain fictions where becoming a god or being a god grants you a high form of immortality.
 
Nothing about Type 1 Immortality says you can't die due to something weaker than you, like a disease.

Type 4 can only be killed by a deity / being of higher authority and power.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Nothing about Type 1 Immortality says you can't die due to something weaker than you, like a disease.
Click to expand...
1: Longevity: Characters gifted with this type of immortality cannot die from natural causes, such as old age or conventional illness, but can be killed by unnatural causes.
 
I am in favor of keeping "Immortality through Godhood" as a definition of Type 4, as being an Immortal God typically implies more than just being ageless, rather it implies a higher existence than simple humans or immortal superhumans. The distinction is worth maintaining.

Keeping Type 5 for High 1-As and giving Type 9 for 1-As seems good.
 
Type 4 is indeed useful depending on the setting, where if you imagine an extremely powerful Creator God (such as YHVH from SMT), Immortality type 4 may be a thing.
 
In fact, to a sufficiently high entity (thinking 1-A and above), Type 4 might become almost indistinguishable from 5.
 
I don't even know how to describe the Immortality of Shin Megami Tensei Demons. Not only will they ever exist as long as their concept / idea remains, even if their form may change alongside the understanding of their concept, but they seem incapable of truly dying even if erased from the Multiverse.

Noah, the Forgotten God, was removed from the Amala Network into non-existence, yet it still lived and it was capable of being summoned in SMT: Nocturne.
 
Well, Type 9 seems pretty fine to me as an idea.
 
Wouldn't the granted by god thing be type 8? Like you rely on this granting to be immortal.
 
It may be different as in some cases...

1. The god prevents the character from dying at all.

2. The character dies and the god revives them when they feel like it, which might make it non combat applicable.

3. The character happens to be a God and has some sort of Immortality by virtue of this position in the hierarchy. Not relying on anything, just the fact that the nature of his existence grants some kind of divine immortality (some like Canopus are of such a high divine status that it makes them beyond the Concept of Death). Some Gods, just like him, may be immortal by virtue of their Godhood making them beyond your average way of killing. Varies a lot from one to another. Hence why in 1-A tiers and beyond, type 4 and 5 do tend to get more and more similar.
 
The "I'm a god so I'm immortal" sounds way too vague. Do they just revive themselves? Are they above the concept of death? Do they regen based on their concept? The first one would be like Low-Godly regen, the second is unquantifibable, and the third is Type 8 immortality. There doesn't seem to be any common way to be immortal via godhood. Most gods are "immortal" in a Type 1 sense, or they are just strong enough to not even be hurt in the first place.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I don't even know how to describe the Immortality of Shin Megami Tensei Demons. Not only will they ever exist as long as their concept / idea remains, even if their form may change alongside the understanding of their concept, but they seem incapable of truly dying even if erased from the Multiverse.
Click to expand...
As I said in chat, SMT Immortality sounds to me like a broken combination of Type 3, 4 and 8 with Mid-Godly regen to boot.
 
@Saikou The Lewd King

Well it may be granted by god like for example Sisyphus from mithology or as form of curse like in Fairy Tail where god of death curses people who are messing with the necromancy with miserable life with additional immortality.
 
I'm talking about the option that being a god yourself gives you this ability, not when another god gives you immortality.
 
I agree with Matt's and Sera's decision on the Type 9 immortality implementation the definiton implies that to kill said character it means the opponent either needs to match them in terms of strength or be conceptually higher in extensial authority than the character himself.
 
Immortality Type 4 should be reserved for series which make a big deal out of godhood, and treat a deity and their powers as a "Higher State of being / Higher level of existence", rather than simply a supernatural being with large powers. An example is Saint Seiya, where divinity is attained through special Sacred Blood and through the 9th Sense, a higher consciousness only deities possess.

Then there are also Verses where Gods Literally.Cannot.Die.

For instansce, Greek Mythology, where Cronus could only castrate Uranus, rather than fully killing him, or how the Olympians were devoured by him as babies yet never died, rather living on in his belly. Or how Prometheus had his liver eaten by a giant bird, yet he simply regenerated every day.
 
@Matthew

Makes sense. This would also apply to the Riordanverse, since while gods can fade from existence, they can never truly die of any causes.
 
Yeah, I think Matt makes sense too. I was studying Iroquois mythology awhile back and I noticed that one of their "main" Gods, Tawiscara literally could not be killed, not even his stronger brother could kill him for good, due to his godhood.
 
I think that Matthew makes sense. However the description for immortality by virtue of godhood needs to be better explained than previously.

Sera's suggestion of a type 9 for 1-A beings and above also seems to hold merit.
 
@Matthew: So which feat is the minimum requirement for type 4 immortality?

As I understand your explanation it is not given for being immortal and being a god, but instead for being immortal because being a god?

No requirements beyond that?

And being immortal by basically having type 8 in dependence on a god, would still be type 4?
 
To be a Type 4 is to be an immortal because of your hierarchical position due to godhood. Your divine immortality is less a power, and more treated as a consequence of your state of being as a deity.

Basically, Verses like Marvel that treat a deity simply as "A really powerful immortal" wouldn't get it, but Saint Seiya, Madoka and Homura, Shin Megami Tensei and the True New Gods from DC would.
 
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