Immeasurable speed revision

[LordAizenSama]

Ok. Let me make this as simple as i can.

The requirements for immeasurable are not changing. Characters who are immeasurable will have two separate speed stats (one within spacetime speed and outside) or be listed being able to move outside space and time as a power and ability, not as a speed.

Am I misunderstanding why people are so confused or is it this simple?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Aizen

If you were a user who just arrived on this site, would you be able to understand what "transcends linear time" means if you didn't have an example?

 

[Antvasima]

LordAizenSama is correct about what is being proposed.

However, Reppuzan wants us to better clarify the previous definition, which is a good point.

 

[Thebluedash]

""If you were a user who just arrived on this site, would you be able to understand what "transcends linear time" means if you didn't have an example?""

But as far as I know, none of us here are new members so that argument is pointless.

Anyways, back on topic, @Repp do you agree with DarkLK's suggestion now that you understand it?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@TheBlueDash It isn't pointless if we consider it from the view of wanting new members to have easy understanding of the system.

 

[Thebluedash]

@Monarch He's replying to Aizen's comment which is directed towards to us. So no we are not talking about new members.

Easy understanding of the system? It's like our absolute zero rules, explosion rules, all of them are complicated in their own right. They will learn eventually like, we did. There is no need for us to babysit new members. Anyways, lets stick on the topic of if we agree with DarkLK or not. We can discuss other things later.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Bluedash

Do remember that this is a community site. If no one is going to clarify our definitions then we're just shooting techno-babble at people that they will have to bother us for, taking up additional time and resources as the same questions get asked over and over. Saying that "none of us here are new members" means nothing to the hundreds of thousands of visitors we get, among them are new members.

But about DarkLK's definition, there's one thing.

What are we going to do to rate characters whose only speed feat is transcending space and time?

Characters like Arceus and ZeedMillenniummo whose only speed feats are existing before or outside space and time? Do we just leave them as Unknow in real time, Immeasurable outside of it?

 

[Antvasima]

To me, immeasurable is exactly what it sounds like

You cannot measure the speed with the equation "S = D/T", because one of those variables is invalid to the feat. Normally time. You can't measure how long it takes for someone to do something if they finish before they begin.

Normally, because they are capable of "moving" through time as if it is a spatial dimension. This character I made on the FC/OC wiki shows my understanding of immeasurable speed if you want an example of what I mean.

Monarch Laciel's explanation make sense to me. The best examples that I am aware of is moving through any direction of time through speed alone, or encompassing several timelines/temporal possibilities at once.

However, again, I am not the best person to evaluate this issue, and The Living Tribunal1, who proposed the change, has quit the wiki.

 

[Thebluedash]

@Rep For the first part, read my previous comment.

and 2nd

"Do we just leave them as Unknown in real time, Immeasurable outside of it"

Yes.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Bluedash

At that point, it's less of a rating and more of a formality, since it's utterly useless in any sort of indexing or versus discussion unless both characters involved are Immeasurable.

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan I agree about that I would much prefer if we simplify this issue to make it easier to understand for all of us. However, I am unable to properly do so on my own.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Ant

I apologize for being difficult, but at this point we might as well delete the Immeasurable speed category and make it a power since it can't even be used for practical speed discussion any more with this analogy in place.

 

[Thebluedash]

@Repp

I suppose it's more like a formality, but the ability to move out of space and time will still exist, so it might be able to be used in fights sometimes, just not in a way that is involved with speed.

I don't understand why you have a problem with this, when some ratings like lifting strength are here for mostly formality and is barely used in versus threads.

Not trying to make my comment sound rule, or hostile, or anything of such. It's something that I am actually wondering.

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan

Well, let's wait and see if DarkLK, A6colute, Sera, or DontTalk (if he is still visiting this wiki) are able to help out first.

 

[A6colute]

To me, immeasurable is exactly what it sounds like

You cannot measure the speed with the equation "S = D/T", because one of those variables is invalid to the feat. Normally time. You can't measure how long it takes for someone to do something if they finish before they begin.

Main problem with it:

You can move in a place without space & time =/= you have infinite speed in a place with space & time.

We just don't know which speed this character has in a place where you can measure his speed.

So, it's more likely Unknow speed.

For me, in terms of VS battles wiki, immeasurable speed it's a speed which cannot be measured in any place. With time. Without time. Doesn't matter.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Do you have some examples that easily explain the concept to regular visitors?

 

[Antvasima]

Also, what do you think of Reppuzan's suggestion to simply remove the immeasurable speed rating from our wiki?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

What speed would they be given then? Are we really just going to say every SMT character has Unknown speed now?

Or will the definition of Irrelevant be expanded?

I think that Immeasurable speed should stay, but be redefined similarly to how I explained it (or whatever we can come to an agreement on) and what qualifies for it be changed, while being able to exist and move in a void without space-time should simply be a power

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that seems reasonable.

 

[Lina_Shields]

A definition based on Monarch's suggestions can be written, as it makes the most sense on how to tackle this topic.

 

[A6colute]

What speed would they be given then? Are we really just going to say every SMT character has Unknown speed now?

If character has no speed feats in space & time continuum AND doesn't transcend space & time than it's only Unknown speed.

 

[A6colute]

while being able to exist and move in a void without space-time should simply be a power

Exactly. It's not a speed or something. It's only an ability.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I'm completely fine with A6's suggestion

so it will be noted under powers/abilities, like Aleister Crowley's page here.

 

[Lina_Shields]

while being able to exist and move in a void without space-time should simply be a power

Exactly. It's not a speed or something. It's only an ability.

This example would fit under the ability Void Manipulation, as said ability also covers the ability to exist where there is no space-time.

Now the definition needs to be written so that casual visitors will understand it (easier said than done however).

 

[Antvasima]

I am also fine with A6colute's analysis. However, I would appreciate if he could help us with an easier to understand explanation for the ability.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I still think this is needlessly overcomplicates. Assuming that all Immeasurable characters can only be Immeasurable outside of space-time is just as wrong as assuming all of them can be everywhere.

Why would Arceus or Zeed or YHVH be limited inside the universe? It honestly makes little logical sense to me.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Assuming that all Immeasurable characters can only be Immeasurable outside of space-time is just as wrong as assuming all of them can be everywhere.

I don't think we are assuming either of these though. We are saying that existing and moving outside of space-time is not an Immeasurable speed feat, and is instead a power. Probably a variation of Void Manipulation in some cases.

What I've proposed is that the only way we can say someone is Immeasurable is if they have the immeasurable speed feat within space-time, by making the S = D/T equation innapplicable

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Our greatest expert on our tiering system DarkLK has repeatedly mentioned that just because characters have immeasurable speed for moving outside of space-time, this does not mean that they can move at anywhere near these speeds within a continuum.

Wait... I think people here, myself included, are getting things confused.

This rating would only poly to character's who's only Immeasurable speed is moving outside of space-time, not for those who have greater, more liable immeasurable speeds such as transcendence over time and physics.

I so now wonder why the purpose of the thread? I thought it was already agreed that simply moving outside of space-time isn't enough evidence.

Unless what this is meant for is for characters who are explicitly not immeasurable, but can move outside of space-time, to be immeasurable while doing so.

 

[Antvasima]

Matthew, with all due respect, A6colute and DarkLK understand this issue considerably better than we do, and fiction does not tend to treat the ability to move outside of time as the same thing as transcending linear time inside of it.

I would very much appreciate if we could please try to proceed with discussing how to make the term more accurate, and not use it excessively.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But don't we already? We have had numerous discussions about this, and we have long since agreed that moving outside of space-time =/= reliable immeasurable speeds.

I am just reminding the thread that this is not something that will apply to all immeasurable characters. It was never in DarkLKs suggestion to do so.

 

[Sera_EX]

Immeasurable speed is something that goes beyond the bounds of the very concept of speed. The difference in speed between two immeasurable characters can be estimated only on the level of existence where the concept of space and time in the conventional sense is irrelevant, but the concept may apply to a higher order.

The reason why simply being outside of space and time not granting you immeasurable speed within space and time is similar to having different types of speed. Just because you can fly at MHS+ speeds doesn't mean you can run at MHS+ speeds. Just because you can swim at High Hypersonic speeds, doesn't mean you can run or fly at those speeds. It's that simple.

So...a character must transcend linear time to have immeasurable speed? I said this before and I'll say it again, no you do not. Transcending usually means you exist above and beyond the concept. You don't have to be 5-dimensional, unbounded by space or time, or anything like that. You simply just have move at a speed that cannot be measured. Like Ve said time and time again, our system is so much simpler than we treat it. When we index these characters, what are we doing? Measuring their feats. That's why calcs are important. How do you measure speed? Well, you can ignore it all you want, speed is measured by dividing the distance covered by how long it took something to cross that distance. S = D/T. D = S x T. T = D/S.

The reason why it's called "immeasurable" is because it cannot be measured (duh). Within time/without time, it does NOT matter. If it can't be measured using the speed formula, it is by definition, immeasurable. This of course doesn't include teleportation, cross-universe travel, etc.

I strongly discourage getting rid of anything (be it a rating, profile, whatever) just because it can't be used in a vs match.

 

[Sera_EX]

Basically, just because DarkLK explained how immeasurable speed without space-time doesn't mean a character has immeasurable speed within space-time doesn't mean we go meddling with everything. His analogy is simple and can simply be applied to any other speed.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What DarkLK meant was that stuff like Zeno moving after he erased everything in the multiverse doesn't mean he'd be Immeasurable outside of places with no time.

It doesn't apply to characters who are immeasurable for other reasons. The thread got very confused, I think.

 

[Sera_EX]

What DarkLK meant was that stuff like Zeno moving after he erased everything in the multiverse doesn't mean he'd be Immeasurable outside of places with no time.

It doesn't apply to characters who are immeasurable for other reasons. The thread got very confused, I think.

Yes, more or less.

 

[Antvasima]

Here is DarkLK's reply regarding the subject:

"I think I can't saying something new. I do not even understand what you guys are arguing about. It seems to me that you are just trying to complicate everything.

The standard Distance Speed Time Formula.

If you get infinity, then this is an infinite speed.

If the formula can not be applied, then this is an immeasurable speed.

If the character can move in a stopped time, this does not mean that he can move infinitely fast when he/she wants. "

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

And if the character can move in a void without time, this does not mean that he can move immeasurably fast when he/she wants.

Makes sense to me. So we go through the profiles, find the characters who's only Immeasurable speed feat is moving in a void without time and space, and either scale them, calc them, or put them at unknown.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Monarch Laciel seems to make sense, but it depends on what A6colute and Sera think.

 

[Sera_EX]

Here is DarkLK's reply regarding the subject:

"I think I can't saying something new. I do not even understand what you guys are arguing about. It seems to me that you are just trying to complicate everything.

The standard Distance Speed Time Formula.

If you get infinity, then this is an infinite speed.

If the formula can not be applied, then this is an immeasurable speed.

If the character can move in a stopped time, this does not mean that he can move infinitely fast when he/she wants. "

That's literally what I just said...just in less detail. So I absolutely agree that the staff have overcomplicated things. But, it's alright. And yes, I like Monarch's suggestion.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

Can you try to evaluate how we should rewrite the immeasurable definition in the Speed page? I am completely mentally exhausted, and can't think straight.

 

[A6colute]

And if the character can move in a void without time, this does not mean that he can move immeasurably fast when he/she wants.

Makes sense to me. So we go through the profiles, find the characters who's only Immeasurable speed feat is moving in a void without time and space, and either scale them, calc them, or put them at unknown.

Yes.

Simply speaking, there are two options:

1. Different speeds for different "spaces" (speed in a place without space & time / speed in a place with space & time / etc)

2. Find the characters who's only Immeasurable speed feat is moving in a void without time and space, and either scale them, calc them, or put them at unknown.