Immeasurable speed revision

[Antoniofer]

I also agree with Promestein, write immesurable speed as a power would be better that put to different speeds.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

How we doin' so far...?

 

[Reppuzan]

But what if someone fights outside of the restrictions of space and time in a space where time exists?

Wouldn't that qualify for a straight up Immeasurable rating?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Is this about Edmond Dante again? If so, message me on my wall and I'll explain my thoughts on it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Honestly, attempting to put a standard treatement to all 4D Immeasurable feats is impossible. There are far too many variations across fiction to establish a set rule.

The simplest and most funcional way is to analyze the characters individually and rate them accordingly.

Some chars are only Immeasurable under special conditions like the mentioned Type Moon chars. Others are straight up Immeasurable all the time, like SMT demons who transcend Past, Present and Future and are unbound by the laws of physics.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Just putting this out of my words, it just seems like no matter what we do with immeasurable, the ways its been defined just becomes problamatic within each change we go through with it.

 

[LordAizenSama]

But what if someone fights outside of the restrictions of space and time in a space where time exists?
Wouldn't that qualify for a straight up Immeasurable rating?

...what???

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Cross

It's not that. It's just that people keep having the same discussion over and over every 2 months, and it honestly never accomplishes nothing.

It's so simple. Analyze each character individually. Nothing is an Absolute.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Mmm...

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Honestly, attempting to put a standard treatement to all 4D Immeasurable feats is impossible. There are far too many variations across fiction to establish a set rule.
The simplest and most funcional way is to analyze the characters individually and rate them accordingly.

I agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, this would be a change that goes by the definition of DarkLK, who is our greatest expert regarding these issues. As long as we follow through with it, and update the profiles accordingly, we should be left in a considerably less confusing place than before.

I most definitely do not agree that we should have no set standards whatsoever for immeasurable speed, and just say "evaluate on a case-by-case" basis. That would be the most confusing and incoherent solution of all.

The question is if we should go by the standard proposed by Promestein of strictly listing the ability to move outside of regular time in the powers and abilities section, and ignore its influence in the speed section, or if we should, for example, write it in the following manner:

"Massively FTL+ within a space-time continuum. Immeasurable outside of it."

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Well i kind of like thinking Prom's is less confusing. Though idk what we call that other than saying "Can move outside of regular time and space". Which i guess is okay-ish...

Meanwhile, Rep's question needs a direct answer as he told me in priv about it.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I agree a case by case basis is not a good idea. It will just lead to more bias and misconceptions.

I'm neutral on listing it as a separate speed or as a power/ability listed

 

[Antvasima]

Well, regarding Reppuzan's question, as far as I understand, as long as time exists, moving in a certain environment does not automatically grant immeasurable speed.

However, A6colute would be better suited to answer the question.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Aizen

I'm not sure what was so confusing about my earlier statement.

Edmond Dantes is explicitly stated to move outside of the constraints of space and time, but never actually leaves the space-time continuum since he fights his enemies there, moving so fast that "it seems as though a time halt has been deployed".

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Are we sure he never actually leaves? Maybe he leaves, then comes back in at a new point in space time, at the same point where his past body is somewhere else. That's what it looked like to me in his F/GO Noble Phantasm animation

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan Hmm. That example is easier to understand. However, "it seems as though a time halt has been deployed" does not sound like absolute time stop, just a semblance of it, and the former would just be infinite speed, not immeasurable.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Moving outside of spacetime to a new area with spacetime doesnt sound like he left at all or its a pocket dimebsion or something.

Either way that doesn't sound like immeasurable speed

 

[Reppuzan]

@Antvasima

Well, the most important line is:

"Avenger is able to escape from even "abstract prisons such as time and space.""

But he isn't shown in-game to actually travel back in time or leave the area in which he was originally fighting. Does that automatically disqualify him from having Immeasurable speed?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that sounds like immeasurable speed, no, but I am not the best person to evaluate the issue.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I would appreciate if we could try to stay on topic.

We need to handle the following tasks:

• Modify the immeasurable speed description for moving in a place without time.
• Decide whether we should go with Promestein's suggestion, or list two separate speed statistics for characters that have done this.
• Find and adjust the affected profiles.

 

[Thebluedash]

A few loose statements are not enough to justify him moving out of space and time tbh and the statement makes it sounds like he can escape out of pocket space prisons like kaguya's pocket spaces. The more extraordinary the claims, the more extraordinary the evidence needs to be. The fact that the character is still rated at a C (agility/speed) means that he is not immeasureable in speed at all. The wording of "moving outside space and time" just seems like an ability to move outiside of confinements.


Edmond statement:

• Enfer Ch├óteau d'If: Tyger, Tyger, Burning Bright (ÒéóÒâ│ÒâòÒéºÒâ½Òâ╗ÒéÀÒâúÒâêÒâ╝Òâ╗ÒâçÒéúÒâò: ÞÖÄÒéêÒÇüþàîÒÇàÒü¿þçâÒüêþøøÒéî, Anferu Shatō Difu: Tora yo, Kōkō to Moesakare): An A-Rank Anti-Unit/Army Noble Phantasm that represents Edmond Dant├¿s' iron will, cultivated while imprisoned within the Ch├óteau d'If, sublimated into a Noble Phantasm. Not even mentioning his body, Avenger is able to escape from even "abstract prisons such as time and space." Through performing super high-speed thinking that should have been impossible for a human and to forcibly reflect that on his body, subjectively realizes a super high-speed action that makes seems like a "time halt" is being employed. The speed of such high-speed movement makes the attacks take the form of a "simultaneous multi-attack" from many different "offshoots" of Avenger. The flames of grudge materialized by mana are released from multiple afterimages, dealing damage to the target.

 

[Antvasima]

The more extraordinary the claims, the more extraordinary the evidence needs to be.

This is true.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Thebluedash

You're completely misunderstanding.

He's not Immeasurable normally, that much is true, but moving outside the boundaries of space and time is tied to his Noble Phantasm, or in other words is a special technique/power-up for him. Thus he hits immeasurable speed as soon as his Noble Phantasm finishes activating.

"Abstract prisons like space and time" is about as blatant as you can get.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The animation shows him moving, getting faster and faster until he reaches that "time halt" and then goes beyond that to a point where he seemingly moves through time to appear in mutiple places at once while the enemies are still time halted and attackign them with each "duplicate" at once.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Again moving outside the boundaries of time and space yet he is still within space and time (this by itself is not immeasurable anyway, since he needs to move to a place without space and time) sounds absurd and massively inconsistent to be rated immeasurable

Anyway we are derailing this thread. If you want to discuss it id suggest a thread dedicated to it.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Aizen

Not to be rude, but I'm not trying to derail this thread.

What I'm worried about is how to define Immeasurable.

I brought up the Dantes example because we can't seem to decide on what kind of feat qualifies as Immeasurable.

 

[Thebluedash]

"Time halt"

Him being faster than the enemy doesn't mean much of anything.

"attackign them with each "duplicate" at once."

So he's fast enough to move and make afterimages?

Not a good enough reasoning to support immeaurable speed.

"Abstract prisons like space and time" is about as blatant as you can get.

No, it's not really. This is a similar case to Absolute Ice in DBS being called not true, when they literally said "His ice is absolute zero" because visually and by animation it doesn't look like it.

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate if we could try to stay on topic, yes. No offence intended.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Ant

Then someone please provide an example of what it means to be immeasurable, because outside of being higher-dimensional I can't tell what does qualify as immeasurable anymore.

We don't even have any examples on the Speed page to define it for our users, which basically renders "transcends linear time" useless and meaningless to the average user. Hence why I'm trying to start discussion on statements like moving outside of space and time while fighting characters who are constrained to such places to try and start giving some examples.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

They aren't afterimages though. They are all in different positions for one. They all attack at the exact same time for another, which they wouldn't do if they were afterimages, they'd just follow the movement. Plus, why would he bother moving around mid attack

Plus he's floating in mid air, despite flight not being a power of his. With the ability's explanation, this seems pretty clear to me that he is free of the restrictions of space, including gravity.

 

[Promestein]

I agree with Matt and Reppu here. This is making things needlessly complex, confusing, and obtuse.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Prom points out the obvious with just one line...

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan

Okay. No problem.

Being able to run through any direction of time for example, does qualify, as does encompassing many timelines/temporal possibilities at once, if I understand correctly.

However, I agree that this is not my area either. DarkLK, A6colute, Sera, and DontTalk would probably be better suited for straightening out this issue.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand to be honest..

 

[Antvasima]

@Promestein

Well, my intention was the opposite. I just wanted to make us follow DarkLK's advice regarding that immeasurable speed outside of time does not automatically translate inside of it, in order to avoid heavily exaggerated inaccurate ratings not supported by the stories.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

To me, immeasurable is exactly what it sounds like

You cannot measure the speed with the equation "S = D/T", because one of those variables is invalid to the feat. Normally time. You can't measure how long it takes for someone to do something if they finish before they begin.

Normally, because they are capable of "moving" through time as if it is a spatial dimension. This character I made on the FC/OC wiki shows my understanding of immeasurable speed if you want an example of what I mean.

 

[Thebluedash]

Anyways, now that I definitely understand DarkLK's suggestion. I agree with him.

 

[Antvasima]

I will message DarkLK, A6colute, Sera, and DontTalk to ask them for input.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Yes, I agree with DarkLK that simply moving somewhere without time or space does not automatically give immeasurable speed inside space-time