Immeasurable speed revision

[Antvasima]

Our greatest expert on our tiering system DarkLK has repeatedly mentioned that just because characters have immeasurable speed for moving outside of space-time, this does not mean that they can move at anywhere near these speeds within a continuum.

He has used the analogy of that just because a character can swim in water, this does not mean that they can swim on land.

I personally think that he makes sense. However, if we change our standards, this will require quite a lot of help from our staff with finding and adjusting all affected profiles.

Input would be very appreciated.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

That makes sense to me.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

There have been so many discussions and disagreements regarding this that I don't even know anymore. I usually consider Immeasurable speeds for those that exist beyond time, or come from a dimension without space-time and have that as their natural habitat. But everyone here seems to have their own opinion.

 

[LordAizenSama]

This has been something ive mentioned before but it was ignored for whatever reason.

I agree with DarkLK here aswell. Aleister Crowley would be a perfect example. He can move/fight outside space and time but is much slower in the universe

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. I also find the issue confusing.

Apparently DarkLK thinks that moving outside of time should be considered immeasurable when within that environment, but that it should not automatically translate to their regular speeds.

 

[Reppuzan]

I've brought this example up time and again, but what about characters like Fate's Edmond Dantes? He's explicitly stated to move outside of space and time while using a special ability but fights characters on a 3-D plane.

I know he's rather obscure, but I can never seem to get a straight answer about him.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Just saying this out, but Immeasurable speed has got to be one of our biggest issues when it comes to speed-related topics. In addition to being one that probably has the most changes in terms of it's definitions iirc throughout my two years on this place.

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan I do not know the specifics, but suppose that DarkLK's analysis should apply there as well.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Rep Was thinking of him myself personally. While he is stated to move outside of time and space, he seems to need to move back in to attack (at least from the F/GO attack animation), so I would say Enfer Chateau more gives him infinite speed (or time stop) and time travel, seeing as he isn't freely moving through time and space, he is going outside the space-time continuum then returning at a different point

 

[LordAizenSama]

I've brought this example up time and again, but what about characters like Fate's Edmond Dantes? He's explicitly stated to move outside of space and time while using a special ability but fights characters on a 3-D plane.

I know he's rather obscure, but I can never seem to get a straight answer about him.

Aleister crowley is more or less the same. In our case we just noted that he can move outside space and time under his powers and abilities, since he fights more or less normal people in 3-d space and quite obviously doesnt have that speed inside the universe

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it might be best if we focus on the general issue.

Our standards are clearly confusing to most of us, so perhaps we should simply set a clear standard that moving outside of time means immeasurable speed, but only in that environment.

However, again, if this is accepted, we will need to collaborate with finding and adjusting the relevant profiles.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

If that's the case of that, Aizen, i can see Crowley's case being a good example of at least DarkLk's idea of Immeasurable speed.

 

[VenomElite]

I agree with DarkLK's analysis.

 

[Sera_EX]

This is fine by me.

 

[Thebluedash]

Sorry, I'm having a bit trouble understand what's suggested here (due to my lack of knowledge on the subject).

So this suggestion is that moving out of space and time, does not gain the character immeasurable speed in the real world?

Sorry somewhat confused.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Sorry, I'm having a bit trouble understand what's suggested here (due to my lack of knowledge on the subject).
So this suggestion is that moving out of space and time, does not gain the character immeasurable speed in the real world?

Sorry somewhat confused.

Yes, exactly

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. The suggestion is to clearly state that moving in a space without time gives immeasurable speed, but only in that environment, not in regular time-space. Hence, characters who do this should preferably get two separate speed statistics.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, I agree too, and I think than that was mentioned before; immesurable is just when is moving throw time or similar, at the end, when in the 3-D plane, the max speed that can be reached is infinite.

 

[Eficiente]

Same goes when time is erased?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, this is for Immeasurable. GERs own ability gives it Infinite Speed.

 

[Antvasima]

So, since everybody seem to agree with the suggestion, should we move onto practical issues regarding how and in which profiles we should apply this change instead, or wait for more input first?

 

[Eficiente]

@Matthew Schroeder So, you affirm that the same analogy cannot be applied to his case?

 

[Antvasima]

Let's stay on topic please.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

So to be clear, simply being able to move outside of space-time no longer qualifies for immeasurable speed, they must be shown to be capable of freely moving through time (under their own power, so no time machines) as easily as they would through space?

Would this automatically include higher dimensional beings?

 

[Antvasima]

Being higher-dimensional in terms of spatial size does not logically automatically translate into speed, no.

Immeasurable means transcending linear time, such as freely time-travelling through movement alone, or possessing more than one temporal dimension.

Moving outside of a space-time continuum where time does not exist, does technically mean that a character has demonstrated immeasurable speed, but only in that environment, as they usually display far less othervise. Hence, DarkLK's swimming analogy.

 

[Sera_EX]

I thought we dropped the whole "temporal dimension" concept. It overcomplicates things.

 

[Eficiente]

And what happens if 2 or more characters of the same series are outside of space-time but only one is able to move? (I do agree with everything)

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera We did skip it as a basic requirement, but characters that have this trait still seem to qualify.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, if we are going to fix this problem, I need help with finding and changing the relevant pages.

 

[Promestein]

Why would they need two separate speed statistics? Just say in their abilities that they can move outside of spacetime. And who would this affect anyways? I'm pretty sure most of the characters that this would apply to were downgraded in the Infinite / Immeasurable speed discussion. This isn't new info, either, Dark's said this multiple times and I thought it was already accepted and used for our pages?

 

[Antvasima]

I am afraid that we have not actually updated any of our pages accordingly, no, and this is the first time that we actually attempt to make a revision based on DarkLK's statements.

I am uncertain whether or not it is a good idea to remove the immeasurable speed ratings entirely though.

 

[Promestein]

Well, okay. Again, who would this affect?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. I will need help from the community with finding and listing all of the relevant profiles.

 

[A6colute]

Immeasurable means transcending linear time, such as freely time-travelling through movement alone, or possessing more than one temporal dimension.

Moving outside of a space-time continuum where time does not exist, does technically mean that a character has demonstrated immasurable speed, but only in that environment, as they usually display far less othervise.

Yes. That's correct.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you A6colute.

 

[Promestein]

Not disputing that.

I do think it'd be needlessly confusing to have two speed statistics like that on whatever profiles this would effect. I feel it'd be less confusing to just list it as a power, like I said with moving in a void in regards to Infinite speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe, maybe not. I would appreciate more staff input regarding the issue.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Hmm...Prom may have a point in that it would be confusing if we did it this way or not. But idk of what the others would say of this...

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Listing it as a power does seem simpler and easier to understand.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Promestein and Celestial Pegasus.