Immeasurable Speed Revision For DBH/DBX

[Dominodalek]

@Dominodalek
1. Yes I did, I showed a scan stating that the demon realm is outside time earlier, the very scans posted by Ultima state the demon realm is created in a space outside time by the demons, and Daizenshuu says that Demon realm runs on magic and not science, and it is not like the living universe which is the only place like our own. Also that the kais have no control over Demon realm despite Kai of time controlling time and histories.

Your earlier scan is contradicted in that very chapter. All his scans say is that the Demon Realm is a world where demons are imprisoned on, nothing about it being outside time. The Daizenshuu does not say that - it actually says that magic has "more influence" that science, which further supports my point. It also doesn't say that the Kais have no control over the realm, just that they cannot see it - keep in mind that the guidebook predates Chronoa, so it is only referring to the Z Supreme Kais. We know the Kais can't be completely oblivious, because at some point someone must have gone there to seal away Mechikabura.

2. Her science is magic based however, so not conventional science, and the demon realm itself is said specifically to run on magic and not science.

Already covered this, but I would like to add that they draw a clear distinction between her magic and science. While they do feed into each other, they are not the same thing.

3. Well going by his profile the reasoning for SBP being immeasurable is just being a living timeline and existing outside time, which if that is the requirement you have to admit Mechi has both those traits. Although I get the notion that those standards are being altered again.

No, I don't have to admit that, I've spent the past two weeks giving arguments against it. If he's losing Immeasurability though, then it doesn't really matter either way.

4. I disagree, they haven't been "debunked" in actuality.

Then address the points.

5. But the point is using time stop in and of itself on people doesn't inherently exclude them from having immeasurable speed, so it should not be taken as a reason to throw away potential immeasurable speed feats/statements. That's like saying a character can't have resistance to mind manipulation just because somebody manages to control their mind.

No, but it's supporting evidence against it.

 

[SSJRyu1]

@Dominodalek
1. Its really isn't contradicted though. It is outside time as stated in my earlier scan with the SSJ4's who can fight in it as it is not a part of time, prior to Chronoa sealing it, and Chronoa's sealing further removes it making travel impossible. Also as was said, not only does it run on magic and not science, but the kais having no control over it is accurate, they cant even see it unlike the rest of the universe. Also Chronoa herself has no idea what's going on in the Demon realm so it substantiates that notion, and still applies to her going by narrative. So it still doesn't run on normal physics like was said, and still is stated to exist outside time like was said even prior to her sealing it off.

2. Fact is even her science is dependent on her magic to, with aspects like Dark energy etc., so is not conventional science.

3. True you don't have to agree, but SBP is one of the reasons I was led to believe being a living multiverse is sufficient proof for immeasurable speed by multiple staff multiple times.

4. I already have, the arguments in that regard are becoming circular from what I see, and I'm not interested in continuing a circular argument. My responses are already in the OP and my previous comments to those points.

Aside from Demigra as a younger version, who is implied to be able to time travel regardless of method to bring those individuals from other times, and the new time machine point, to which I would simply say they are not shown in the PQ's aside from the one where you hunt DB's, and they are for the time patrol, the villains again, would not have access to the time machines. So I disagree with your premise that the villains with no affiliation with the time patrol are being given use of the time machine.

5. Not really since it can easily be explained by them having superior time stop. You yourself even mention earlier how she shows potent time stop abilities for stopping those characters characters. We have also seen other characters like Hit stop people who can move in time stop, and the god of time should logically also be able to perform similar feats since Hit is described as having minor control over time for only a few brief moments. So its nothing new.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Question. Is Mechikabura aware of what's going on inside the timelines inside of him?

 

[SSJRyu1]

Question. Is Mechikabura aware of what's going on inside the timelines inside of him?

Yes, the demon gods state if they do well and beat the time patrol he may let them out implying he knows what is going on. Also his dark energy is directly stated to be inside him actively trapping the patrol when he is surprised Demigra's chains could overcome his dark energy to go through him and save them.

 

[Dominodalek]

@Dominodalek
1. Its really isn't contradicted though. It is outside time as stated in my earlier scan with the SSJ4's who can fight in it as it is not a part of time, prior to Chronoa sealing it, and Chronoa's sealing further removes it making travel impossible.

And, again, the same chapter shows the Demon Realm to have a Time Scroll. What happened after Chronoa sealed it is irrelevant.

Also as was said, not only does it run on magic and not science,

As I pointed out last time, this is factually false, and goes against what the Daizenshuu actually said.

but the kais having no control over it is accurate, they cant even see it unlike the rest of the universe.

Yes, that is what I wrote, and so what? It's not like the Kais had any control over the rest of the universe to begin with, all they can do is look at it.

Also Chronoa herself has no idea what's going on in the Demon realm so it substantiates that notion, and still applies to her going by narrative.

Ignoring that she clearly can, since we know that the Kais at some point intervened, and ignoring that the fact a Time Scroll is confirmed to exist for the Demon Realm means she could just look at that... why would she need to? After Mechikabura is sealed in the Crack of Time, nothing at all happens there that would require her attention.

2. Fact is even her science is dependent on her magic to, with aspects like Dark energy etc., so is not conventional science.

Dark Energy is just another form of Ki, on its own it's no more magical than regular Ki is. She may use magic to supplement her science, but that doesn't make it not science.

4. I already have, your arguments in that regard are becoming circular from what I see, and I'm not interested in continuing a circular argument. My responses are already in the OP and my previous comments to those points.

Don't speak about circular arguments when many of your points are just reiterating the same contested points over and over while completely ignoring any criticism. If you actually address those arguments, we might be able to get somewhere.

Aside from Demigra as a younger version, who is implied to be able to time travel regardless of method to bring those individuals from other times,

Case in point, I've told you before that he is not implied to do so, the arcade makes it very clear that Tokitoki is causing it.

and the new time machine point, to which I would simply say they are not shown in the PQ's aside from the one where you hunt DB's, and they are for the time patrol, the villains again, would not have access to the time machines. So I disagree with your premise that the villains with no affiliation with the time patrol are being given use of the time machine.

The villains are affiliated with the Time Patrol, that's why they're in Conton City in the first place. Infinity History and the Conton City Tournament only further support this.

5. Not really since it can easily be explained by them having superior time stop. You yourself even mention earlier how she shows potent time stop abilities for stopping those characters characters. We have also seen other characters like Hit stop people who can move in time stop, and the god of time should logically also be able to perform similar feats since Hit is described as having minor control over time for only a few brief moments. So its nothing new.

I didn't say that, Ultima_Reality did, but again that doesn't support your argument.

Question. Is Mechikabura aware of what's going on inside the timelines inside of him?

There is no solid evidence that he is.

Yes, the demon gods state if they do well and beat the time patrol he may let them out implying he knows what is going on.

Putine implies he might be able to, but she also has no way of knowing either way. The fact Mechikabura is later surprised that they escape, when the Time Patrol are stated to literally stroll out of the void, would imply the contrary.

Also his dark energy is directly stated to be inside him actively trapping the patrol when he is surprised Demigra's chains could overcome his dark energy to go through him and save them.

Repeating this point over and over won't make it true, there are no direct statements of this.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Yes, the demon gods state if they do well and beat the time patrol he may let them out implying he knows what is going on. Also his dark energy is directly stated to be inside him actively trapping the patrol when he is surprised Demigra's chains could overcome his dark energy to go through him and save them.

Give me all the scans you can find that state or imply that Mechikabura is aware of everything going on in the past present and future.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

From what i know

Super Boy Prime has Immeasurable speed because

1- He's a timeline
2- He can keep up with characters powered up by the Speed Force, which allows the user to time travel via speed.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Yeah? Kinda unrelated tho. I'm just waiting for Ryu to show all the scans.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Yeah? Kinda unrelated tho. I'm just waiting for Ryu to show all the scans.

I was responding to Dalek. I forgot to quote

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

My bad, Super boy Prime is probably getting the speed removed cuz Immeasurable speed characters (speed force) speed blitz him, despite him being a sentient timeline.

Mechi on the other hand...

 

[Dominodalek]

From what i know

Super Boy Prime has Immeasurable speed because

1- He's a timeline
2- He can keep up with characters powered up by the Speed Force, which allows the user to time travel via speed.

SSJRyu1 clarified that earlier, but thanks anyway. If it wasn't likely to become irrelevant, I'd want a little further context on the feats, but I get the basic gist.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Yeah? Kinda unrelated tho. I'm just waiting for Ryu to show all the scans.

Putine and Gravy confirm Mechi will potentially let them go if they beat the time patrol while inside him implying he knows what is happening.



Mechikabura confirms Demigra had to overcome the Dark energy within him and his powers had to oppose those of Mechikaburas Dark energy with his chains, showing his dark energy is actively trapping the time patrol, and must be opposed and overcome to escape.



So he definably knows what's going on in there and is actively able to hold people and the histories in and manipulate them with his Dark energy spread throughout that has to be opposed to stop.

Also as you see the histories are still intact in the void and he is literally said to have absorbed them to, which generally implies becoming one with them. he even gains infinite regeneration from fusing with the histories showing more traits coming from them aside from a power boost.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

SSJRyu1 clarified that earlier, but thanks anyway. If it wasn't likely to become irrelevant, I'd want a little further context on the feats, but I get the basic gist.

Well, SuperBoy being a timeline and keeping up with Speed Force characters was first agreed to qualify him for Immeasurable speed, but as I said it changed because he usually gets speed blitzed by said characters, despite him being a timeline. Depends, cuz if that's valid...Mechi can keep up with said beings in his POTU form (even in lesser forms).

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Well, if he can perceive all of time at once then it’s possible that he has immeasurable reaction speed.

 

[SSJRyu1]

@Dominodalek
The majority of your points are you just saying you disagree with my responses to your contentions. Like I said, I'm not interested in circular arguments. I don't mind answering new points, but I've given my response to most of those points, so see above.

The only new thing I saw was you claiming dark energy is no different from regular ki. This is very inaccurate. Dark energy emanating from rifts or beings has been shown to cause individuals to become violent, get corrupted, become mind controlled, have there powers restricted, break apart timelines and collapse the multiverse etc. So it is in no way the same as normal ki, and Towas science is in no way the same as standard science since it is literally fueled by dark magical demon powers and magic.

I will reiterate one last time that the villains prior to infinite history are in many cases not affiliated with TP, as seen where Zamasu doesn't even know Kai of time is real, and considers her to be an opposing force to his plans upon learning of her existence. So yeah, he is not being given access to her tech. My contention was never that they never have used time patrol tech, just that it is never shown or even logical to think they could until post game of Xenoverse 2 in infinite history in many cases.

 

[Dominodalek]

Putine and Gravy confirm Mechi will potentially let them go if they beat the time patrol while inside him implying he knows what is happening.

No, Putine (and only her) says that maybe he might consider it, with no evidence that he could or would.

Mechikabura confirms Demigra had to overcome the Dark energy within him and his powers had to oppose those of Mechikaburas Dark energy with his chains, showing his dark energy is actively trapping the time patrol, and must be opposed and overcome to escape.

No it doesn't, simply binding Mechikabura required overcoming his Dark Energy.

So he definably knows what's going on in there

You can't just say that, especially when your point was that it was 'implied' he could.

Also as you see the histories are still intact in the void and he is literally said to have absorbed them to, which generally implies becoming one with them. he even gains infinite regeneration from fusing with the histories showing more traits coming from them aside from a power boost.

He absorbed the Demon Gods, Chronoa, Trunks and Elder Kai too, yet he didn't become one with them.

Well, SuperBoy being a timeline and keeping up with Speed Force characters was first agreed to qualify him for Immeasurable speed, but as I said it changed because he usually gets speed blitzed by said characters, despite him being a timeline. Depends, Mechi can keep up with said beings in his POTU form (even in lesser forms).

Well, that only works if Mechikabura's opponents are Immeasurable. Though if that were the case, it wouldn't matter because he scales above them anyway.

I didn't mean the context behind the upgrade/downgrade, I meant the feats themselves - how strong is/was SBP's evidence versus Mechikabura's'? My understanding is that the Flashes for example have a number of strong feats to support their Immeasurable speeds, whereas the evidence for DBH characters that has been presented is largely vague statements and circular reasoning.

The majority of your points are you just saying you disagree with my responses to your contentions. Like I said, I'm not interested in circular arguments. I don't mind answering new points, but I've given my response to most of those points, so see above.

Many of your responses are just repeating your original arguments, and you have repeatedly ignored requests for evidence to back up your assertions from both myself and Zamasu_Chan.

The only new thing I saw was you claiming dark energy is no different from regular ki. This is very inaccurate. Dark energy emanating from rifts or beings has been shown to cause individuals to become violent, get corrupted, become mind controlled, have there powers restricted, break apart timelines and collapse the multiverse etc. So it is in no way the same as normal ki, and Towas science is in no way the same as standard science since it is literally fueled by dark magical demon powers and magic.

You're missing the point. It's still just a type of Ki, not in itself magic.

I will reiterate one last time that the villains prior to infinite history are in many cases are not affiliated, as seen where Zamasu doesn't even know Kai of time is real, and considers her to be an opposing force to his plans upon learning of her existence. So yeah, he is not being given access to her tech. My contention was never that they never have used time patrol tech, just that it is never shown or even logical to think they could until post game of Xenoverse 2 in infinite history in many cases.

While he doesn't know her personally (why would he?) he realises you're working for her after his Initiation Test.

And they're all stated to be there specifically to be instructors (why else would they have been brought to Conton City in the first place?), several of them bring it up if you speak to them while training under someone else, they participate in in-universe tests you have to pass before they're willing to train you (DLC excluded, because it's DLC) and Fu has dialogue about it during Infinite History.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

@Dominodalek

Well, the evidence used for the Superboy rating was pretty much the same. Even when I was Checking Flash's profiles the evidence seemed pretty much the same as Mechi & co. Time travel via speed


Pretty much "He's a sentient timeline who can (he can't but understand) keep up with people who can travel through time via speed"

 

[Dominodalek]

Well, the evidence used for the Superboy rating was pretty much the same. Even when I was Checking Flash's profiles the evidence seemed pretty much the same as Mechi & co.


Pretty much "He's a sentient timeline who can (he can't but understand) keep up with people who can travel through time via speed"

Well, obviously that would rely on the TP being able to do so too, but if he could and they could then it might have been a valid comparison.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Even when I was Checking Flash's profiles the evidence seemed pretty much the same as Mechi & co. Time travel via speed

Really think Time Traveling through speed shouldn’t be listed as Immeasurable. As there is a lot of media in fiction that has Time Travel via Speed listed as just FTL.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Really think Time Traveling through speed shouldn’t be listed as Immeasurable. As there is a lot of media in fiction that has Time Travel via Speed listed as just FTL.

Yes, I am aware of that. It's case by case, but that's not the case here. Immeasurable in Flash's continuity is above MFTL+ so...

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

No. It isn't a case by case. There are too many characters that have immeasurable speed just by time traveling, when simply breaking light speed is all it takes.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

No. It isn't a case by case. There are too many characters that have immeasurable speed just by time traveling, when simply breaking light speed is all it takes.

There are also a lot of verses that don't, and Flash's is one of them. Again, he's at most MFTL+ and that's not enough to time travel there.

DB never showed time travel via being FTL. Otherwise a lot of characters would have done it ages ago.

 

[ElixirBlue]

DBH never showed time travel via being FTL.

That logic works both ways.

Has Dragon Ball ever shown that you need to be immeasurable to time travel?

 

[SSJRyu1]

Another good point brought up is that one reason this would give Mechikabura immeasurable speed is that he can perceive and react to infinite points of history, and infinite histories within himself at once as an omnipresent being, even if just in his own multiverse.

We know he is actively able to perceive all that is going on within him because Poutine confirms that if the Demon gods defeat the time patrol inside him, he may let them out, and the only thing she questions is if he will let them out, not if he can do so, she considers that within his power, implying he is aware of the events within him, and has control over who can move around and leave his histories. Furthermore it is confirmed by Mechikabula that Demigras chains had to overcome and oppose his dark energy to to be able to act in his histories, meaning he is again shown to be in control of his histories and able to perceive them.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

There are also a lot of verses that don't, and Flash's is one of them. Again, he's at most MFTL+ and that's not enough to time travel there.

DB never showed time travel via being FTL. Otherwise a lot of characters would have done it ages ago.

We could just remove his immeasurable rating. If you have issues, bring it up in the current thread that's talking about immeasurable speed.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The first manga panels in context refer to more alternate histories being created by Towa and Mira, as they gain power from the anomalies like new timelines. Its not depicting the Demon realm when they go to this new timeline, Chronoa is well aware of the Demon realm, but not the new timeline.

Fair enough on that one.

When they refer to Demigra being sealed away, they are referring to him being sealed in the crack of time, not Demon realm. She even admits that demons have left the Demon realm before but is amazed Demigra can be outside his sealed off crack of time.

That doesn't actually change anything, given how the first scan actually complements Chronoa's own explanation that the Demon Realm is "sealed off" from time, and the second one just demonstrates once more that banishing Demons from space-time is actually seen as a viable way of getting rid of them, so it's more supporting evidence than anything.

Factually speaking the Demon realm is a separate space outside time and history, which is disconnected and has been created by the Demons, described as running on magic rather than science, and existing outside time. So it definably is outside time and runs on different physics.

And yet Chronoa's Time Stop still works there, it has a place in the Time Scrolls, and Chronoa could cast it outside of the flow of time by using her full power. You can't exactly ignore these three factors, all of which just make me think the Demon Realm is a place excised from regular time, but which still operates on its own timeline regardless.

Not to mention that, as mentioned above, Demons like Mira and Chamel can be affected by Time Manipulation even within it, and I already said that you need to have lots of background context to even bring up the possibility that the Time Manipulation is just that potent, otherwise it's just deemed as a contradiction, especially since manipulating time in a timeless place is just nonsense regardless of how you look at it, and so should be treated as such unless the verse provides explanation on why it isn't. So, even if the Demon Realm does exist beyond time, this wouldn't actually affect any speed ratings, wouldn't even give them Acausality, in fact.

The Demon Realm having different laws of physics doesn't really point towards Immeasurable Speed, and at the absolute best can be seen as supporting evidence. Of course, it's pretty much useless if there is nothing for it to support in the first place.

But the point is using time stop in and of itself on people doesn't inherently exclude them from having immeasurable speed, so it should not be taken as a reason to throw away potential immeasurable speed feats/statements. That's like saying a character can't have resistance to mind manipulation just because somebody manages to control their mind.

It would be the case if said character happened to have Resistance to Mind Manipulation by virtue of lacking a mind or consciousness to begin with, yes. I could extend that to other cases, too: If a supposedly soulless character gets affected by Soul Manipulation, then we just come to the natural conclusion that they weren't soulless to begin with. It's treated as being a contradiction unless the verse properly explains how such a thing is possible.

5. Not really since it can easily be explained by them having superior time stop. You yourself even mention earlier how she shows potent time stop abilities for stopping those characters characters. We have also seen other characters like Hit stop people who can move in time stop, and the god of time should logically also be able to perform similar feats since Hit is described as having minor control over time for only a few brief moments. So its nothing new.

Moving in stopped time is just Resistance to Time Stop, and it's a non-factor here if these showings of resistance are unrelated to what you are using to propose Immeasurable Speed.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

That logic works both ways.

Has Dragon Ball ever shown that you need to be immeasurable to time travel?

It really doesn't work that way, and Dragon Ball characters who are FTL and above (say Trunks) needed time machines to time travel. So it's not possible for them to time travel without having Immeasurable speed.

If they could why did Trunks need a time machine?

 

[Greenshifter]

Flash has immeasurable for breaking the time barrier and moving into the timestream which is at the edge of the Speed Force which is a higher-dimensional construct.

Superboy-Prime probably shouldn’t be used as an example but I don’t see why keeping up with an omnipresent being through time for instance wouldn’t give immeasurable speed. Sonic and co vs Solaris for instance.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Flash has immeasurable for breaking the time barrier and moving into the timestream which is at the edge of the Speed Force which is a higher-dimensional construct.

Superboy-Prime probably shouldn’t be used as an example but I don’t see why keeping up with an omnipresent being through time for instance wouldn’t give immeasurable speed. Sonic and co vs Solaris for instance.

Well I don't know what I read then
Because some profiles says "Immeasurable when running through time"

Probably read the wrong thing

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

@Greenshifter

The argument Is that Mechi apparently has no evidence of Omnipresence even if he devoured history.

 

[Dominodalek]

Another good point brought up is that one reason this would give Mechikabura immeasurable speed is that he can perceive and react to infinite points of history, and infinite histories within himself at once as an omnipresent being, even if just in his own multiverse.

We know he is actively able to perceive all that is going on within him because Poutine confirms that if the Demon gods defeat the time patrol inside him, he may let them out, and the only thing she questions is if he will let them out, not if he can do so, she considers that within his power, implying he is aware of the events within him, and has control over who can move around and leave his histories. Furthermore it is confirmed by Mechikabula that Demigras chains had to overcome his dark energy to to be able to act in his histories, meaning he is again shown to be in control of his histories and able to perceive them.

Well, at least you rephrased the point this time, but Putine still did not confirm anything, and still doesn't have any way of knowing.

Again, Mechikabura did not say that, all he did was express surprise that the chains could overpower his darkness.

Flash has immeasurable for breaking the time barrier and moving into the timestream which is at the edge of the Speed Force which is a higher-dimensional construct.

Superboy-Prime probably shouldn’t be used as an example but I don’t see why keeping up with an omnipresent being through time for instance wouldn’t give immeasurable speed. Sonic and co vs Solaris for instance.

Mechikabura is at most only omnipresent inside his body, so his opponents wouldn't get Immeasurable for fighting him.

Well I don't know what I read then
Because some profiles says "Immeasurable when running through time"

Probably read the wrong thing

I think the profiles just poorly worded it, I had a quick scan through the linked feats and their justification seems to refer to that.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah. I already said in the immeasurable thread that we should update his justification (since currently he just has none).

But I think that you can still get immeasurable by traveling through time via speed alone. Without the fancy Flash stuff. But don’t quote me on that since the standards change about as fast as Flash himself lol.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Having time travel through speed giving or not giving Immeasurable is the main argument of another thread.

 

[Greenshifter]

Mechikabura is at most only omnipresent inside his body, so his opponents wouldn't get Immeasurable for fighting him.

Zamasu’s argument about immeasurable reaction speed could work if enough proof.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Well I don't know what I read then
Because some profiles says "Immeasurable when running through time"

Create a list of profiles that need to be fixed if they rely on that justification.

It really doesn't work that way, and Dragon Ball characters who are FTL and above (say Trunks) needed time machines to time travel. So it's not possible for them to time travel without having Immeasurable speed.

(I’m just discussing the logic of Time Traveling via Speed here for the thread. Everything else can be addressed by more knowledgeable members)

The point is, the large amount of evidence across fiction shows that authors don’t know how fast it really takes to time travel via speed. As far as we know, the author of DBH could think infinite speed is enough to time travel.

 

[Greenshifter]

@ElixirBlue Kukui’s pretty involved in the time travel speed thing and he said yesterday that time travel via sheer speed is proof for immeasurable: https://vsbattles.com/threads/immea...-transcending-space-time.109679/#post-3451385

 

[SSJRyu1]

@Dominodalek

1. She implies that he could do it, her only question is if he would or not. So no, she clearly thinks he is aware of what's going on inside him, and being a demon god privy to knowledge on his powers she is a good source.

2. It actually really does because he is referring to the chains being used to grab the time patrol against Mechi's will, he fails to bind him in the end, so logically Mechi is referring his surprise to him overcoming his hold on the TP since that was the only successful part of Demigras powers being used.

3. I can if we want to be literal, the logical implication is he knows what's going on due to Poutines statement and his own about Mechi taking the TP out of him requiring overcoming his dark energy.

4. This is true for the TP, however they were the last to be absorbed, and all the above have powers that could potentially resist his own such as the keyblade for Trunks, Kai of times own abilities etc. Also it is implied he would eventually fuse with them and that the Demon gods would be part of his "time power" and "Darkness" further proving he is one with the things inside him.



5. He didn't even know she actually existed, any patroller would, and is directly opposed to her to after learning she does, he is clearly not part of the TP at the time. Sure some instructors are affiliated, but as I said, I am not arguing none of the instructors are affiliated, just that many, especially villains are unaffiliated, and would logically not be given access to the time machine. After the events of X1 and the main story of X2 in the DLC of infinite history they become affiliated, but before that many are able to perform the feats of time travel with no affiliation, and thus logically no time machine.

The other points have already been addressed previously.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Well, people here thought that the Demon Gods "Transcending space-time" Is about Time Travel. But Time Travel is as Domino said beyond linear time.

Problem is that they can do that with their own speed as well. So their speed shouldn't be bound by linear time as well, and these statements would become support of Immeasurable speed.

 

[Dominodalek]

@Dominodalek

1. She implies that he could do it, her only question is if he would or not. So no, she clearly thinks he is aware of what's going on inside him, and being a demon god privy to knowledge on his powers she is a good source.

How would she, or anyone for that matter, know about powers exclusive to him that he didn't have prior to that?

2. It actually really does because he is referring to the chains being used to grab the time patrol against Mechi's will, he fails to bind him in the end, so logically Mechi is referring his surprise to him overcoming his hold on the TP since that was the only successful part of Demigras powers being used.

The same chains were also wrapped around him, and were still binding him when he expressed his surprise. Mechikabura doesn't break free until after that, and Demigra states it's only because his Dark Ki weakens his control over them.

4. This is true for the TP, however they were the last to be absorbed, and all the above have powers that could potentially resist his own such as the keyblade for Trunks, Kai of times own abilities etc. Also it is implied he would eventually fuse with them and that the Demon gods would be part of his "time power" and "Darkness" further proving he is one with the things inside him.

Trunks didn't have his Key Sword at the time, and neither Elder Kai or Towa (or for that matter the other Demon Gods, who are still separate in both the manga and the arcade) had any way of protecting themselves.

The Demon Gods were part of his darkness, because they were inside the void. That doesn't mean they became fully a part of him, since we know they didn't.

5. He didn't even know she actually existed, any patroller would, and is directly opposed to her to after learning she does, he is clearly not part of the TP at the time. Sure some instructors are affiliated, but as I said, I am not arguing none of the instructors are affiliated, just that many, especially villains are unaffiliated, and would logically not be given access to the time machine. After the events of X1 and the main story of X2 in the DLC of infinite history they become affiliated, but before that many are able to perform the feats of time travel with no affiliation, and thus logically no time machine.

Many of the villains are opposed to her - Frieza outright invades Conton City regularly - that doesn't mean they aren't affiliated with the Time Patrol. Everyone bar the DLC mentors are confirmed to be, since they are shown to be involved in the academy. They're also involved in the Hero Colosseum, for example.

Well, people here thought that the Demon Gods "Transcending space-time" Is about Time Travel. But Time Travel is as Domino said beyond linear time.

Problem is that they can do that with their own speed as well. So their speed shouldn't be bound by linear time as well, and that would become support of Immeasurable speed.

Only the Shadow Dragons have been shown to do that - and even then it's only implied, since we don't actually see any of it.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Shadow Dragons are implied to do that. That's the only way they could've done it.

The Dark Dragon balls are stated to have flown beyond space time and Towa still reacted to them. That's immeasurable speed for now (If the standards won't change) , maybe limited to reaction speed.

̶A̶n̶y̶w̶a̶y̶s̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶s̶e̶t̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶g̶o̶a̶l̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶I̶n̶f̶i̶n̶i̶t̶e̶ ̶s̶p̶e̶e̶d̶ ̶n̶o̶w̶