- 1,604
- 1,534
Immeasurable DBX/DBH
* This will be broken in to three main points with sub categories to elaborate on them.
*This is a continuation from a previous thread here
Mechikabura is a literal living multiverse
Guys like Vegito, Demigra and Trunks can keep up with Mechikabura in his time power unleashed form. He is a literal living multiverse that is disconnected and outside of linear time, who originates from the demon realm, a place outside time and normal physics. Even Superboy Prime as Time Trapper got immeasurable speed for being "a sentient timeline that exists outside of the flow of linear time" so given Mechikabura has both those traits but on a multiversal scale, getting immeasurable speed should be a no brainer, and it should scale to anybody relevant.
The infinite amount of alternate timelines are described as "histories" within the void of Mechikabura's body, each being shown to be depicting events at different stages of the past, present and future. It is also confirmed he is absorbing time itself. In the end, Mechikabura had successfully absorbed the entirety of time and history itself and nothing existed anymore. Furthermore he gained traits from absorbing time itself such as being able to regenerate endlessly due to fusing with all histories and time. Chronoa also confirms the infinite multiverse that was part of Mechikabura had to also be sealed away, and she could not restore it, although Toki Toki created a new one.
Edit: In BBM 5 it is even directly stated the power of the Dark King allows you to not only do as you wish with the entire Universe, but time as well, further showing his direct control and transcendence over time itself specifically.
People keeping up with Mechikabura
This shows that relevant characters can keep up with Time Power Unleashed Mechikabura.
Edit: * Note that one reason this gives Mechikabura immeasurable speed is that he can perceive and react to infinite points of history, and infinite histories within himself at once. We know he is actively able to perceive all that is going on within him because Poutine confirms that if the Demon gods defeat the time patrol inside him, he may let them out, and the only thing she questions is if he will let them out, not if he can do so, she considers that within his power, implying he is aware of the events within him, and has control over who can move around and leave his histories. Furthermore it is confirmed by Mechikabula that Demigras chains had to overcome and oppose his dark energy to to be able to act in his histories, meaning he is again shown to be in control of his histories and able to perceive them.
imgur.com
Also it is implied he would eventually fuse with the Demon gods, and that the Demon gods would be part of his "time power" and "Darkness", further proving he is one with the things inside him, and his darkness and time power are under his direct control.
* Note that Mechikabura is not using some kind of "avatar", this is never shown or stated. He is fighting in his real body. It should also be noted that while it is a "Body", it consists of all time and infinite histories. He has higer-dimesnional existence because he is not a simple 3D body, but a physical, 3 spatial and 1 temporal, or in other words 4D living multiverse. The notion that he simply got a power boost from absorbing all histories is flawed because first off, he gains traits from fusing with all time such as limitless regeneration based on his new state of being, second off the histories are shown as intact inside of him, but cannot be manipulated by the kai of time anymore while inside of him showing his control over them. So the argument that he is only a regular 3 dimensional being is completely wrong, as he is fundamentally a living 4 dimensional multiverse with specific traits granted by absorbing and fusing with time.
*Also note that the notion that Mechikabura is not Omnipresent is silly, because he is described as containing the entire multiverse and all time which he absorbed, and the fight takes place in a void, therefore the notion that they are fighting a regular 3D body inside of space time goes out the window anyway and is contradicted by the narrative.
* Note that I am aware that Toki Toki and kai of time are able to use "the power of time" still, and Toki Toki can create time still. The fact is it took the power of Darkness, light, time and the SSJG ritual to effect Mechikabura in this state, so it in no way proves that time control is enough to stop him. Furthermore Toki Toki creates new time and a new multiverse, it does not change the fact Mechikabura absorbs and controls the old Multiverse and all time that existed up to that point, and Chronoa can't manipulate it while it is inside him and part of him.
* Note that the Demon realm is indeed outside time for those arguing it isn't. We see this shown when it is confirmed that Goku and Vegeta can use their SSJ4 form because they are outside of time in the demon realm, so it isn't a risk to time.
Time Breakers and Time Patrol Transcend and exist outside the flow of time and can freely fly through it
In Xenoverse 1 and 2 the mentors, who are in Toki-Toki/Conton City, can sense you and freely fly to and from you in alternate timelines and time-frames. Several are villains and have no teleportation, and all are shown flying in and out of the battle, so the arguments of them using time patrol tech or teleportation are moot. Also note that any claims of it being game mechanics are incorrect because this is a cutscene that automatically occurs, which you have no control over, and part of the mentors narrative where they assist you at times if you get into a dire situation in a mission.
Here we see that because the time breakers (this includes non demons like Bardock) are disconnected/removed from time, the fight you have with them will not effect history. This implies also that you will not effect history either with your presence and are outside the normal flow of time like them, which is the case since you can enter and interact with historical DB events without changing them or making more timelines, to get rid of the time breakers and anomaly's.
Here it says the time breakers again exist outside the flow of time. This includes non demons like Bardock, and the same ability to not alter history with your presence or lack there of seems to apply to the patrollers as well who combat them. So we know such a trait exists not just for Demons, but the Time Breakers and Time Patrol in General.
The Shadow Dragons fly across time and timelines
The 7 Shadow Dragons fly across time and space to all the ages and missions in the DBH world, which are separate histories and points in time, and are even about to enter the real world. Beat and his friends can react to and fly beside them as they pass by as well. Note that Beat had not even obtained SSJG yet, and is still on their level showing even mid tier DBH characters have such feats.
A more in depth explanation.
imgur.com
* Note that the "portal" which Oceanus Shenron is seen in at one point is simply a summoning skill of Haze shenron. It has nothing to do with Oceanus travel speed or abilities. She in fact has to fly away afterward to eventually reach the shadow dragons nest in a different age later on. So they still consistently are only seen and implied as flying through the ages, and there is no indication that they use portals for time travel.
The Dark Dragon Balls fly beyond time and space
The Demons such as Towa and Mechikabura can perceive and track the Dark Dragon Balls as they fly off to alternate timelines, and it is outright stated that Mechikabura's power and youth would be difficult to restore, and take time for the Dark Dragon, implying it is a huge feat for him, unlike casually dispersing the Dragon balls across time. We also know with other instances such as the Shadow Dragons flying through both time and space, the patrollers could fly alongside the Dragon Balls as they dispersed. So the flight capabilities of the Dragon Balls likely scale.
Demigra is stated to "Transcend Time and Space"
It is stated in official promotional material from Bandai that Demigra is a Demon God that "transcends time and space." This is a good substantiating statement for the various immeasurable speed feats, and the notion that they can perform these because they transcend linear space and time. Logically since the other time breakers and time patrol have similar feats, can interact with history in a similar way, and can keep up with Demigra they should scale.
Full trailer
Demigra is also stated to exist "beyond time and space" in v-jump. While some might claim this is just due to time travel, as I pointed out earlier he is also stated to exist outside time and the flow of time like the rest of the Time Breakers and Time Patrol, as well as transcending it in the above point, and would scale to those who have freely flown through time and timelines due to existing outside time, so it is unlikely that this refers to just simple time travel.
*Note I am well aware that at times characters use portals or machines to time travel in DB, this however is not always the case as seen above, and does not remove the fact that several different characters have been shown to fly through time and timelines more than once.
*Note that I am well aware that time travel via flight is not in and of itself sufficient proof for immeasurable speed across the board, however it does show an aspect of this, and is worth mentioning as a substantiating point. As well, the nature of said time travel seems to be due to existing outside the flow of time and transcending time and space as is stated above for many characters and groups, which can indicate immeasurable speed.
Demigra's Chains can cross infinite histories and timeframes
This is pretty self explanatory, yet somehow we all missed this as a speed feat.
Demigra's chains travel across the void left by Mechikabura after he absorbs all time and infinite histories (we know and have accepted the multiverse has infinite timelines), into the void from the outside, through a sealed off multiverse that is inside and part of him (he has trapped all inside himself), and across many histories and space times to search for, pinpoint and pull out the patrollers and Towa. His attack literally crosses a void, the infinite past, present and future events that are depicted all over in the void, and searched through infinite histories to find and pull the individuals out.
1. This is a showing of a physical attack which Demigra controls with his reaction and attack speed, so it logically applies to all aspects of his speed. We also see him use the chain technique to deflect energy blasts from Mechikabura later, while Trunks flies along side it, showing the chains are a direct attack under his control.
2. Before somebody claims he just used a portal, this is not shown, or stated, and if he could do that he would open up one right next to them and connect it right next to himself to more easily get them out. Instead he had to physically send chains in to Mechikabura, which are seen coming from a distance at first implying physical travel, and find the individuals in the soup of infinite histories and time periods.
3. Logically since Mechikabura's void contains an infinite number of histories, as it is confirmed all time and histories were absorbed into him, and we physically see several of them, the size of the void would have to be infinite to fit infinite histories that can each individually be seen, and we know Demigra's chains can search and cross said void starting from the edge of it outside Mechikabura. While this in and of itself is only infinite speed, and the fact his chains cross and search many histories and timeframes to find the time patrol and Towa would be what is immeasurable, it is worth mentioning since this sub point which is an infinite speed feat does indicate a level beyond that of mftl+ speed.
Edit:
4. One additional final point that can be made about Demigra's chain feat is that he was technically outmaneuvering an Omnipresent being in a place where they were Omnipresent, while passing through Mechikabura's void and multiverse against his will despite Mechikabura controlling it all and preventing escape or manipulation of the histories from others.
* This will be broken in to three main points with sub categories to elaborate on them.
*This is a continuation from a previous thread here
Mechikabura is a literal living multiverse
Guys like Vegito, Demigra and Trunks can keep up with Mechikabura in his time power unleashed form. He is a literal living multiverse that is disconnected and outside of linear time, who originates from the demon realm, a place outside time and normal physics. Even Superboy Prime as Time Trapper got immeasurable speed for being "a sentient timeline that exists outside of the flow of linear time" so given Mechikabura has both those traits but on a multiversal scale, getting immeasurable speed should be a no brainer, and it should scale to anybody relevant.
The infinite amount of alternate timelines are described as "histories" within the void of Mechikabura's body, each being shown to be depicting events at different stages of the past, present and future. It is also confirmed he is absorbing time itself. In the end, Mechikabura had successfully absorbed the entirety of time and history itself and nothing existed anymore. Furthermore he gained traits from absorbing time itself such as being able to regenerate endlessly due to fusing with all histories and time. Chronoa also confirms the infinite multiverse that was part of Mechikabura had to also be sealed away, and she could not restore it, although Toki Toki created a new one.
Edit: In BBM 5 it is even directly stated the power of the Dark King allows you to not only do as you wish with the entire Universe, but time as well, further showing his direct control and transcendence over time itself specifically.
People keeping up with Mechikabura
This shows that relevant characters can keep up with Time Power Unleashed Mechikabura.
Edit: * Note that one reason this gives Mechikabura immeasurable speed is that he can perceive and react to infinite points of history, and infinite histories within himself at once. We know he is actively able to perceive all that is going on within him because Poutine confirms that if the Demon gods defeat the time patrol inside him, he may let them out, and the only thing she questions is if he will let them out, not if he can do so, she considers that within his power, implying he is aware of the events within him, and has control over who can move around and leave his histories. Furthermore it is confirmed by Mechikabula that Demigras chains had to overcome and oppose his dark energy to to be able to act in his histories, meaning he is again shown to be in control of his histories and able to perceive them.
Imgur: The magic of the Internet
Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more.
imgur.com
Also it is implied he would eventually fuse with the Demon gods, and that the Demon gods would be part of his "time power" and "Darkness", further proving he is one with the things inside him, and his darkness and time power are under his direct control.
* Note that Mechikabura is not using some kind of "avatar", this is never shown or stated. He is fighting in his real body. It should also be noted that while it is a "Body", it consists of all time and infinite histories. He has higer-dimesnional existence because he is not a simple 3D body, but a physical, 3 spatial and 1 temporal, or in other words 4D living multiverse. The notion that he simply got a power boost from absorbing all histories is flawed because first off, he gains traits from fusing with all time such as limitless regeneration based on his new state of being, second off the histories are shown as intact inside of him, but cannot be manipulated by the kai of time anymore while inside of him showing his control over them. So the argument that he is only a regular 3 dimensional being is completely wrong, as he is fundamentally a living 4 dimensional multiverse with specific traits granted by absorbing and fusing with time.
*Also note that the notion that Mechikabura is not Omnipresent is silly, because he is described as containing the entire multiverse and all time which he absorbed, and the fight takes place in a void, therefore the notion that they are fighting a regular 3D body inside of space time goes out the window anyway and is contradicted by the narrative.
* Note that I am aware that Toki Toki and kai of time are able to use "the power of time" still, and Toki Toki can create time still. The fact is it took the power of Darkness, light, time and the SSJG ritual to effect Mechikabura in this state, so it in no way proves that time control is enough to stop him. Furthermore Toki Toki creates new time and a new multiverse, it does not change the fact Mechikabura absorbs and controls the old Multiverse and all time that existed up to that point, and Chronoa can't manipulate it while it is inside him and part of him.
* Note that the Demon realm is indeed outside time for those arguing it isn't. We see this shown when it is confirmed that Goku and Vegeta can use their SSJ4 form because they are outside of time in the demon realm, so it isn't a risk to time.
Time Breakers and Time Patrol Transcend and exist outside the flow of time and can freely fly through it
In Xenoverse 1 and 2 the mentors, who are in Toki-Toki/Conton City, can sense you and freely fly to and from you in alternate timelines and time-frames. Several are villains and have no teleportation, and all are shown flying in and out of the battle, so the arguments of them using time patrol tech or teleportation are moot. Also note that any claims of it being game mechanics are incorrect because this is a cutscene that automatically occurs, which you have no control over, and part of the mentors narrative where they assist you at times if you get into a dire situation in a mission.
Here we see that because the time breakers (this includes non demons like Bardock) are disconnected/removed from time, the fight you have with them will not effect history. This implies also that you will not effect history either with your presence and are outside the normal flow of time like them, which is the case since you can enter and interact with historical DB events without changing them or making more timelines, to get rid of the time breakers and anomaly's.
Here it says the time breakers again exist outside the flow of time. This includes non demons like Bardock, and the same ability to not alter history with your presence or lack there of seems to apply to the patrollers as well who combat them. So we know such a trait exists not just for Demons, but the Time Breakers and Time Patrol in General.
The Shadow Dragons fly across time and timelines
The 7 Shadow Dragons fly across time and space to all the ages and missions in the DBH world, which are separate histories and points in time, and are even about to enter the real world. Beat and his friends can react to and fly beside them as they pass by as well. Note that Beat had not even obtained SSJG yet, and is still on their level showing even mid tier DBH characters have such feats.
A more in depth explanation.
Evidence for Immeasurable Black Smoke Shenron fissions (DBH: Victory Mission)
Imgur: The magic of the Internet
imgur.com
* Note that the "portal" which Oceanus Shenron is seen in at one point is simply a summoning skill of Haze shenron. It has nothing to do with Oceanus travel speed or abilities. She in fact has to fly away afterward to eventually reach the shadow dragons nest in a different age later on. So they still consistently are only seen and implied as flying through the ages, and there is no indication that they use portals for time travel.
The Dark Dragon Balls fly beyond time and space
The Demons such as Towa and Mechikabura can perceive and track the Dark Dragon Balls as they fly off to alternate timelines, and it is outright stated that Mechikabura's power and youth would be difficult to restore, and take time for the Dark Dragon, implying it is a huge feat for him, unlike casually dispersing the Dragon balls across time. We also know with other instances such as the Shadow Dragons flying through both time and space, the patrollers could fly alongside the Dragon Balls as they dispersed. So the flight capabilities of the Dragon Balls likely scale.
Demigra is stated to "Transcend Time and Space"
It is stated in official promotional material from Bandai that Demigra is a Demon God that "transcends time and space." This is a good substantiating statement for the various immeasurable speed feats, and the notion that they can perform these because they transcend linear space and time. Logically since the other time breakers and time patrol have similar feats, can interact with history in a similar way, and can keep up with Demigra they should scale.
Full trailer
Demigra is also stated to exist "beyond time and space" in v-jump. While some might claim this is just due to time travel, as I pointed out earlier he is also stated to exist outside time and the flow of time like the rest of the Time Breakers and Time Patrol, as well as transcending it in the above point, and would scale to those who have freely flown through time and timelines due to existing outside time, so it is unlikely that this refers to just simple time travel.
*Note I am well aware that at times characters use portals or machines to time travel in DB, this however is not always the case as seen above, and does not remove the fact that several different characters have been shown to fly through time and timelines more than once.
*Note that I am well aware that time travel via flight is not in and of itself sufficient proof for immeasurable speed across the board, however it does show an aspect of this, and is worth mentioning as a substantiating point. As well, the nature of said time travel seems to be due to existing outside the flow of time and transcending time and space as is stated above for many characters and groups, which can indicate immeasurable speed.
Demigra's Chains can cross infinite histories and timeframes
This is pretty self explanatory, yet somehow we all missed this as a speed feat.
Demigra's chains travel across the void left by Mechikabura after he absorbs all time and infinite histories (we know and have accepted the multiverse has infinite timelines), into the void from the outside, through a sealed off multiverse that is inside and part of him (he has trapped all inside himself), and across many histories and space times to search for, pinpoint and pull out the patrollers and Towa. His attack literally crosses a void, the infinite past, present and future events that are depicted all over in the void, and searched through infinite histories to find and pull the individuals out.
1. This is a showing of a physical attack which Demigra controls with his reaction and attack speed, so it logically applies to all aspects of his speed. We also see him use the chain technique to deflect energy blasts from Mechikabura later, while Trunks flies along side it, showing the chains are a direct attack under his control.
2. Before somebody claims he just used a portal, this is not shown, or stated, and if he could do that he would open up one right next to them and connect it right next to himself to more easily get them out. Instead he had to physically send chains in to Mechikabura, which are seen coming from a distance at first implying physical travel, and find the individuals in the soup of infinite histories and time periods.
3. Logically since Mechikabura's void contains an infinite number of histories, as it is confirmed all time and histories were absorbed into him, and we physically see several of them, the size of the void would have to be infinite to fit infinite histories that can each individually be seen, and we know Demigra's chains can search and cross said void starting from the edge of it outside Mechikabura. While this in and of itself is only infinite speed, and the fact his chains cross and search many histories and timeframes to find the time patrol and Towa would be what is immeasurable, it is worth mentioning since this sub point which is an infinite speed feat does indicate a level beyond that of mftl+ speed.
Edit:
4. One additional final point that can be made about Demigra's chain feat is that he was technically outmaneuvering an Omnipresent being in a place where they were Omnipresent, while passing through Mechikabura's void and multiverse against his will despite Mechikabura controlling it all and preventing escape or manipulation of the histories from others.
Last edited:
