Illumina Major Downgrade Part 2

[Genericstickman]

That's an assumption and an Undistributed middle Fallacy. You can't assume they're all the same just because they're called dreams when they clergy have different qualities.

I mean both of them are being held together by the precious stone so theirs that

 

[Neon_Battle_Bind]

although I stopped debating there's still a lot of knowledgeable memebers against the downgrades

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Generic the official scan only says Maginary World/Illumina's Dream is a Universe. Every other Dream is simply a fragment of the Maginary World and has no statements about them being universes; and are in fact literally inside Maginary World. Both Japanese scan and the official translation literally confirm this. The individual dreams are bigger than planets or stars for sure, but only one of them has been shown to be bigger than a galaxy, which is shown to simply be an outer space sort of thing. Which is in turn inside Maginary World.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Emerald Coast - A world where people enjoy peace.

Firebird - A world where people love flying.

Nature Zone - A world where people enjoy nature.

Riot Train - A world where people love the thrill of adventures.

These 4 examples of regular dreams have one major thing in common, and it's the fact that each dream has its own category or characteristic. The Maginaryworld has 0 characteristics to give it its own category. It's not limited to a specific aspiration. The one job of the Maginaryworld is to hold all dreams and that's it. The Maginaryworld is also the only known dream to be created by a deity, it would make sense to assume that a God's dream is a lot greater than a regular person's.

 

[Genericstickman]

can you highlight the quote because I cant find it

 

[Theuser789]

Marginary World is made of the dreams and are Illumina's aspirations, and her being a god wouldn't make her dream be special

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Marginary World is made of the dreams and are Illumina's aspirations, and her being a god wouldn't make her dream be special

Tell me special characteristics about her dream.

 

[Theuser789]

It's the only world that holds the rest like pocket universes, it's also made of other dreams

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Their is a quote right here. That's the point, Maginary World is the one dream containing every other dream; it literally is special. And she's the Goddess of Dreams for this very reason. And that the Precious Stone is what holds the entire Maginary World together. Each Dream is created just to be a small part of the Maginary World which is indeed a Universe.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Exactly the mere fact that the Maginaryworld is the only dream that holds other dreams makes it different from every other dream.

 

[Genericstickman]

if you're referring to the quote of dreams and reality co-existing that's talking about the fact that dreams are turned into realities of themselves thanks to the precious stone

 

[Theuser789]

The dreams are aspirations, she being a godness wouldn't make her have more aspirations.

Illumina's aspirations is to know every dream of everyone, just like Sonic's aspirations of Adventure is represented by the Emerald Coast.

Sonic's dream is literaly a represetantion of a place of the real world ( Emerald Coast is in Station Square) It literaly represent the main universe, regular dreams are also universes, you would need to prove that Sonic's dream only contain one part of the world, even though there's stars and galaxies, in them( galaxies appear in everyworld before a minigame)

The dreams are not smaller than Marginary World DDM, Marginary World holds every dream which are pocket universes inside it, being representes like a projector though a dream, similar to the main reality and the special zones, which are confirmed to be a universe in the Sonic Chaos mannual

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

> Illumina's aspirations is to know every dream of everyone

Lol where is this headcanon coming from? It's never even stated that's her aspiration, as a matter of fact it's never even stated she has aspirations.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It only shows that it represents a scene on Earth, not an entire Universe with it's one timeline. Only the entirety of Maginary World is shown that.

 

[Theuser789]

If she has emotions she has aspirations, Void is literaly Illumina's negative emotions, if she didn't have aspirations she would do nothing and not ask Sonic and Co. help, all dreams are made of aspirations, that would include Marginary World.

There are stars in every world DDM, you need to prove that Sonic's dream is only a part of the real world, not the world on it's enterity as we have seen, there would be no sky or Sun if it was only the beach part of Sonic's dream

 

[Darkmon_cns]

789

Destoying or creating a realm that Has a star filled sky is only 4-A, as judged in just about every other veres in which it comes up, it's not enough to be declared universe sized. It see.s to be your current agument.


Just because she probably has aspirations dose not mean anyone on this wiki gets to declare what they were, that is not our purpose.

 

[Theuser789]

You didn't understand my argument, Sonic's dream is based around on the real world, so it would be a universe, I was only saying that It had stars against the argument that Emerald Coast was only a part of the real world represented.

The dreams reflect the aspirations of people, so Marginary World reflects Illumina's aspirations

 

[Darkmon_cns]

You didn't understand my argument, Sonic's dream is based around on the real world, so it would be a universe, I was only saying that It had stars against the argument that Emerald Coast was only a part of the real world represented.
The dreams reflect the aspirations of people, so Marginary World reflects Illumina's aspirations

1 you'd need to prove parts of the real world not shown are there. The very ldea is that we can only rank statics on the parts of the emerald coast or any of the other dreams we are shown in game. We can't assume the rest is there without seeing it.

2 it has been explained before that marginary world can not be equated to the other dreams because of how unique it, and it's creator is, even if that wasn't the case this still wouldn't matter as it's not told in game and any conclusion we could come to on the matter would just be speculation

 

[fandom_22Easy]

It doesn't mean much but I agree with Low 2-C after reading all the arguments here. It feels like the staff have been repeating themselves and I've seen multiple fallacies from the pro 2-B side.

 

[Genericstickman]

I mean the precious stone still has the potential to make universes even if Maginary World is unique

 

[Theuser789]

1 you'd need to prove parts of the real world not shown are there. The very ldea is that we can only rank statics on the parts of the emerald coast or any of the other dreams we are shown in game. We can't assume the rest is there without seeing it.

2 it has been explained before that marginary world can not be equated to the other dreams because of how unique it, and it's creator is, even if that wasn't the case this still wouldn't matter as it's not told in game and any conclusion we could come to on the matter would just be speculation

Sonic's dream is Emerald Coast which is a location on the real world, we see everything that's on the real world, you need to prove that's diferent, the other dreams come from the aspirations, while Sonic's is represented by the real world, so It would have the same size.

Marginary World is still a dream, with it's characteristc being holding other dreams, you need to prove that's special, Illumina's being a godness would not mean that her aspirations are diferent when it's show that she acts like Sonic and Co. and needed their help

 

[JJSliderman]

The dreams don't actually make up Maginaryworld. Maginaryworld existed before the dreams and the dreams are just contained by Maginaryworld.

I guess that's kinda the same thing though.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

1 you need to prove it has the same size, right now your just speculating that, because a dream was a dream of part of the real world, it must have the whole real world, you need to prove this line of thought, the only evidence you have for it is the stars, something you can normally see from emerald coast, there for they would need to be there for the illusion of it being the real emerald coast to be complete. The burden to proof it has the rest of the real world in it becaus it has part of the real world is on you.


2 and that alone makes it unique and different from all the other dreams,it is the hub by which they all are connected, this is what makes it unique, non of the other dreams have evidence to be anymore then 4-A sized.


We are indeed going in circles on 2, many individuals have mentioned before why this dream is unique yet you still haven't acknowledged it.

 

[Theuser789]

I don't need to prove, Emerald Coast clearly represents the real world, they also are called worlds, in this context it would mean universe, the dreams aren't illusions, now that is pure speculation, they represent the aspirations, you are assuming that they are illusions without proof, Oscam Razor, it's more simple to say that Emerald Coast is similar in cosmology to the real world them the contrary

Every dream is unique, Zamasu even listed each world characteristcs, Marginary World's is holding every dream, Marginary World isn't special, Illumina's aspirations aren't diferent from the rest

 

[Darkmon_cns]

1 you need to proof emerald coast represents the real world in it's entiretiy and not just the beach, you seem to have greatly missunderstood my use of the word 'illusion', the Emerald coast is not the original in the real world yes? Therefore it is a replica in a dream and the illusion of it is that it is the real emerald coast when it is not, there for my use of 'for the illusion of it being the real emerald coast' is correct. World can mean anything, it could mean a planet, it could mean your personal world (the places in which you live your life) it could mean a foreign place, or it could refer to a specific area of one's life, it could just mean 'a' place. It is not clear that it refers to universe in this context.


2 if every dream was unique from eachother then there would be no reason to group them together or to scale there size to eachother. Especially the one that's 'holding every dream'.

 

[Theuser789]

It's not just the beach because it has stars, it's not a replic but a represetantion from Sonic's aspirations. I know that world means alot of things, that's why I said in this context, because the dream has more than a planet, Marginary World is also called a world in the same game even though is a universe, in 06 the end level is called "End of the world" even though the universe was being destroyed.

Each dream being unique has nothing to do with they existing from each other, they exist as pocket universes inside Marginary World, just like the special zones and the main universe, and the special zones are confirmed to be universe

 

[Darkmon_cns]

1 and as I said, having stars in a pocket dimension has aways only been 4-A, yes even when those pocket dimensions have been called worlds. Nothing about what I said before was incorrect. Also, 'maginary world' have you considered they were just calling it a short hand of it's name? As well, the use of world reffering to multiple different things has never granted things larger levels because one of those things was a universe and the others not, world is a common phrase that is thrown around often In fiction. The term 'end of the world' is also a very common phrase, it's used quite often, I do believe I recall it being used in sonic forces as well for far less destructive events.

2 and the special zones have nothing to do with this? Are you trying to scale the dreams to the special zones in size solely because they are both pocket dimensions in the sonic series?

 

[Theuser789]

Emerald Coast represents the real world, you would need to prove that's only a small portion, the usage of the word world is only suporting proof as well as Illumina's dream being a universe, Marginary World is it's it's full name not a short version of it, Forces took place only on the planet so it's refering to the planet, the word world is refering to the dreams with have stars, in this case it's universe, the dream depot has similar statments

The special zones is a comparassion, the main universe has many pocket universes inside it, I am only saying that the case is the same for Marginary World since it's been said in this thread that the dreams can't be universes because they are inside Marginary World, the special zone comparassion is to prove that wrong

There's also plenty of visible stars and even galaxies on the sky in each dream world

 

[Theuser789]

Anyway I would probaly put Marginary World similar to the zones in the Mania opening:https://makeagif.com/i/Byklpj

The white space would be Marginary World while each ring portal would be the dream worlds being projected like a screen, when you enter you see their real size like the zones in the opening, all of them are as big as the white space yet they are still inside it.

I would put Marginary World like that, the white space being Marginary World or the 4th dimension and the rings each dream that's just as big as Marginary World, but being inside it like pocket universes

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

It's kinda sad that a downgrade will be done because folks are getting too stressed out by the toxicity to continue the debate, rather than having their opinions changed by facts and logic (kinda a shallow way to win an argument imo).

Combine with the fact many disagree with a downgrade (that's going to happen anyway), honestly calls into question the legitimacy of the whole discussion in the first place.

But hey at least I learnt some new things, so it's not all bad.

 

[JJSliderman]

The thing is, there's potential for the dreams to be universes due to the fact that they're bigger than planets.

But the fact that they're not overtly universe-sized on top of it being stated in-game that Maginaryworld is created from everyone's dreams does lead me to believe that they are just fragments of a whole universe, minus the 4-D stuff.

If it was possible to figure out the number of alternate dimensions generating these dreams (which are countless dreams), then maybe that could be interesting, but it's just a vague hint as to the fact that there are alternate dimensions.

 

[Theuser789]

Marginary World is made of everyone dreams, similar to my Mania comparision.

All of them have stars and galaxies as well as being called worlds.

My Mania comparision is probaly how Marginary World is like

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Marginary World is made of everyone dreams, similar to my Mania comparision.
All of them have stars and galaxies as well as being called worlds.

My Mania comparision is probaly how Marginary World is like

Such a comparison just isn't how the wiki does things, if it is a pocket dimension that shows stars it is 4-A, that is how the wiki judges things, your claim that they all have galaxys has been rejected by everyone but you. And, as I've said It is you that needs to prove more of the real world is represented than what is shown in the game, Just because part of it is represented is not evidence enough to assume the entirety of A 3A size.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

It's kinda sad that a downgrade will be done because folks are getting too stressed out by the toxicity to continue the debate, rather than having their opinions changed by facts and logic (kinda a shallow way to win an argument imo).
Combine with the fact many disagree with a downgrade (that's going to happen anyway), honestly calls into question the legitimacy of the whole discussion in the first place.

But hey at least I learnt some new things, so it's not all bad.

It's not the People who proposed the downgrades fault that most of the people That disagreed left, most of the people who agreed left too, I'm essentially the only one that completly agrees with the downgrade that is still here.

 

[Theuser789]

Such a comparison just isn't how the wiki does things, if it is a pocket dimension that shows stars it is 4-A, that is how the wiki judges things, your claim that they all have galaxys has been rejected by everyone but you. And, as I've said It is you that needs to prove more of the real world is represented than what is shown in the game, Just because part of it is represented is not evidence enough to assume the entirety of A 3A size.

Prove that it is a pocket dimension, the only terms that the dreams have been refered where to universe and world, nothing else.

The comparassion is to prove that Illumina's dream isn't bigger nor special than the rest

Look at the sky of each dream, they all have galaxies on them, it's pretty clear and nobody rejected that claim with good enough arguments

Stop repeating yourself, I know the rules of this wikia, I lurked here for over eight months

 

[JJSliderman]

Are you sure they aren't just the same galaxies in each Dream World.

 

[Theuser789]

Each dream is separeted from each other so they can't be the same galaxies

 

[Theuser789]

Another comparassion is the levels of Super Mario 64.

All of the levels are inside Peach's Castle being represented by paintings inside it( like the dreams in Marginary World being represented as projections on a screen), yet they all are bigger than the castle.

The same can be applied to Marginary World, Marginary World being a universe doesn't mean that the dreams have to be smaller than It, there's plenty of comparassions that contradict that

 

[JJSliderman]

If all the dreams are on the edge of 4th Dimension Space then it's possible that the galaxies above are just part of 4D Space.

 

[Theuser789]

They aren't on the edge, also you would need to prove that Sonic and Co. can see the 4th dimension from the dreams, which is extremely unlikely since they react like they had never seen the 4th dimension on it's intro cutscene