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Ikki vs Red

So? Not all paralysis are the same.

And they suddenly have electricity around them? You're just proving my point here, the electricity around people is just a way to show paralysis, not "makes a forcefield of electricity".

When? You're just showing other cases of paralysis, not showing why for some reason electricity induced paralysis has nothing to do with electricity.
 
But in Pokémon, it is the same "status effect".

Yeah, they then suddenly have electricity around them. Also, Glare isn't an electric type move, it simply produces the same status effect.

I showed the various showings of the status effect paralysis.
 
So? It's the same hax in here too. But it can be differently induced. A raw example Edelweiss and Touka both induce the same thing "paralysis" except Edel does it through fear, touka does it through electricity.

Yeah...no. It's just a way to show paralysis then, not to mean "electric field", a non electric type move ain't inducing electricity field around people. Yes the same status effect doesn't mean the same means of achieving it.
 
And while different means can be done to make it, all of them produce the same effect: a field of electricity around the target preventing them from moving.

In fact, after Generation 6, electric type pokémon became immune to paralysis, including through the move Glare.
 
You still aren't proving "field of electricity" though. What you've been showing is no different from an electric shock visually. They both look the same. And if he can induce a field of electricity around a victim i do not see why shocking a victim with electricity is any different.

Oh nice, back to my point. It is "electricity induced" in both cases. Thanks for clearing that up. Any problem with ikki resisting it?
 
Firephoenixearl said:
You still aren't proving "field of electricity" though. What you've been showing is no different from an electric shock visually. They both look the same. And if he can induce a field of electricity around a victim i do not see why shocking a victim with electricity is any different.
Oh nice, back to my point. It is "electricity induced" in both cases. Thanks for clearing that up. Any problem with ikki resisting it?
Click to expand...
They became immune to it because Electric Type 'mons outright absorb electricity in most cases (Pikachu even consume it as a form of nourishment).

The fact that stronger people can't power through the field.
 
If Ikki's gonna blitz as soon as he goes Shura, should I even have speed equalized? Current Red and base Ikki are pretty much the same speed anyway, scaling stupidly above light dodgers.
 
@Cal

As you wish, boi.

My reasoning is either;

- Ikki falls to Red's electric based traps and get one shot. (win for Red)

- Ikki kills Red, but can't kill all his 'mons before getting one shotted. (inconclusive)
 
@Lep

Yes, so it is just an electric shock, the thing that ikki resists.

Being stronger doesn't get you through electricity shocks, what's the point of mentioning it?

@Cal

>Stupidly above light dodgers

>Red with his best pokemon is Relativistic+
 
Keep in mind at 4km, even if Ikki auto-Shuras from the start, 10x speed advantage isn't enough to be imperceptible at that distance.
 
@Fire

Won't continue debating it, already gave my piece.

Red was already Relativistic at the start of the manga through Bulbasaur's Solar Beam. This is EoM Red.
 
The real cal howard said:
Keep in mind at 4km, even if Ikki auto-Shuras from the start, 10x speed advantage isn't enough to be imperceptible at that distance.
Click to expand...
Trackless Step and Edel Sword Style sure are.
 
Vs Seeker for the former, and everyone on Discord proved you wrong for the latter.

Also, the only difference between what Ikki scales to and what Red scales to is that Red's is calced while you're auto assumed Ikki's to be FTL. Normally, we would assume uncalced light dodging to be .1c, and I don't mind bumping that thread if you wanna go that route.
 
Vs Seeker only work when you have killing intent, which ikki can erase.

>Everyone on discord

>Literally 2 people agreeing with you.

I'll show you a case later.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Vs Seeker only work when you have killing intent, which ikki can erase.

>Everyone on discord

>Literally 2 people agreeing with you.

I'll show you a case later.
Click to expand...
You're ignoring that said two people were Wok and Ovens, two people with more say than you. And nobody chimes in to give you any support, despite the fact that you brought it up to gain support and failed.
 
"In Pokémon Adventures, the Vs. Seeker works by sensing the fighting spirit of Trainers willing to battle within a certain radius and then pointing a beam of light towards them." — Bulbapedia

@Cal

Keep it civil, please. Just in case. ovo
 
The real cal howard said:
You're ignoring that said two people were Wok and Ovens, two people with more say than you. And nobody chimes in to give you any support, despite the fact that you brought it up to gain support and failed.
Click to expand...
Never said the opinion of those 2 people don't matter. I said don't say "everyone" you're just overplaying the support you got. And the rest is kinda moot, not everybody cared enough for that and besides Risci agreed with me too, so back to the point do not use the term "everyone" for 2 people.

And DontTalkDT, a person with much more say than all 5 of us combined, said that you'd need more feats than that to prove no accel.

And as for the case of "no accel". Here is Ikki seemingly not accelerating against Stella (3:23). And i can show you 90% of Grappler Baki's punches or attacks and all of them will seem not to accelerate, yet both of these shows later on are shown to indeed have acceleration. And from what Risci said, acceleration has been shown in pokemon, so that renders your whole point moot in this case/battle.

@Lap

Care to prove distance?
 
There was this one thread of Superman vs Ultron where Ultron took hostages so the world is not empty, that said this usually gets ignored in most fights, but someone who doesn't nuke in character shouldn't nuke in a fight either even if the battlefield is empty.
 
The real cal howard said:
Yeah, no. DT if anything didn't give a straight answer. No matter what he didn't agree with you.
Click to expand...
He didn't agree with you. He said "If he has feats of doing sudden movements to dodge stuff on his speed ranking then yes".

So it needs a feat of "dodging something as fast as yourself", rather than just "well lol animation".
 
Your idea of "feats" is "this must be blatantly stated in a book/novel. We went over this too. You wanna take this back to Discord, you can.
 
The real cal howard said:
Your idea of "feats" is "this must be blatantly stated in a book/novel. We went over this too. You wanna take this back to Discord, you can.
Click to expand...
DontTalkDT outright said what it is.

A feat of dodging something literally equal in speed to yourself (which would be logically a good point as it means, you crossed the same distance in the same time, but if acceleration were included you'd need more time). The 2 conditions to give no accel according to DontTalkDT:

Don't know him well enough. If he has feats of doing sudden movements to dodge stuff on his speed ranking then yes. If it is established that characters in the series usually do that then maybe. Otherwise probably not.

Unless it's those 2 simply "we don't see it" is completely insufficient. I already gave you 2 examples of why "we don't see it" doesn't mean "it doesn't exist". So im just sticking with DontTalkDT here, you lack those feats. And according to Risci pokemon has shown acceleration before. So your point is moot no matter which way you slice it.
 
You mean him just saying it as opposed to showing scans like Lephyr and I have both done? And you're taking DT's words out of context to suit your gains. Heck, you yourself were unsure what he was saying so you asked agai for clarification, but somehow you know exactly what he meant now.
 
>Scans

>Scans of blitzing

Oh you mean like the feat i gave you of Ikki showing no accel against Stella? Iirc he mentioned flying mons which take time to get to full speed.

And i literally quoted you what he said, playing with words really ain't gonna change it.
 
You mean how he started off by saying just showing dodging sudden movements on your level is enough? I'm not the one playing with words here.

And I'm not denying that Ikki showed that ability against Stella. I'm saying that Stella is a dumbass who can't dodge something coming at full speed to her despite their peaks being the same, despite the fact that in any other anime, that would be child's play.
 
Yes, showing that you dodge something as fast as yourself. That would obviously be a good way to say there is no accel as he's dodging something as fast as him under the same conditions, so he's moving peak speed from the start.

Yes, but what im saying is "Ikki and Baki seemingly showed 0 accel, yet it wasn't truly 0 accel". Also you gotta prove that by showing me when actually stated 0 accel is child's play.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Also you gotta prove that by showing me when actually stated 0 accel is child's play.
Click to expand...
TriforcePower1 said:
This is just a random example with arbitrary numbers to make the math easier. Assume Ikki and Red are 100m away, and that due to speed equal their max speed is 100 m/s (again, I know it's not, but it's useless because speed equal). Ikki accelerates instantly to 100 m/s, but he still has to cross those 100m in 1s. 1s in which Red can do stuff with his pokémons.
Click to expand...
 
Welp, since it seems we all gave our arguments and are going in circles at this point, here are the scenarios presented so far:

- Ikki goes through everything Red throws at him no questions asked and kills everything he has unopposed based on his apparent speed amp and Red's inability to detect him (as well as his 'mons). (Ikki's win)

- Red can in fact detect him through the Vs Seeker and/or Poliwrath's Mind Reading and as such, can mount a comeback and/or a winning strategy based on the distance separating both and/or his Pokémon abilities (most notably Paralysis) and capability of affecting large portions of area that nullify the speed advantage. (Red's win)

- Ikki can blitz Red before mounting a comeback, however, this triggers Red's 'mons to do a large scale attack that Ikki won't get away from as he can't take out all 'mons at once (specially after Paralysis) before getting smacked at least once. (inconclusive)

People can vote now.
 
I agree with Triforce here, this ability is mostly useful from close range, from long range it only gives Ikki a head start. At least that's how I interpreted it.
 
My vote: Based on the arguments presented so far, as well as taking into consideration the many scenarios that can arise from the interactions of both characters and their mentality, combined with the variability that taking into account the place where they are fighting, it would end up as inconclusive.

So many things can happen, every one of them equally likely (imo), that is difficult (if dishonest) to declare one as the more likely victor.

My stance can change, but for now, i remain inconclusive; this has been a very fun battle to analyze. I will only comment again if new information is introduced.

Until then, hooe you keep everything calm, have a nice day. ovo
 
@Earl Does Ikki become visible after paralysis for a split second? (I know he can fix/resist it). And does Pikachu always induce static?
 
Greenshifter said:
@Earl Does Ikki become visible after paralysis for a split second? (I know he can fix/resist it). And does Pikachu always induce static?
Click to expand...
I guess he could become visible for a split second. Just theory though. However after paralysis the time he needs to fix is extremely short. A comparable opponent could not manage to land a hit before then.

Imagine the same thing, but with 10x speed, totally not a difference that matters. Not to mention he can just kill pika by throwing his sword at him.
 
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