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Ikki defeating four perfectly identical, but stronger, copies of himself

Except that those clones were evolving 48x faster than the actual Ikki, making literally anything he could do entirely moot.

My point was that because Ikki scales above himself, he is technically 48x stronger than himself, which recurses infinitely and can be used to give him basically any tier if you stretch it enough. The reason this is dumb is because there are no feats for that kind of that, and that was also part of the point.

Mind showing me those?

Skill is not an excuse here. Unless the author goes out of his way and says "oh yeah the real Ikki like doesn't give a shit about logic and Sara didn't know so she didn't recreate that" there are precisely 0 ways for this feat to be legitimate.
 
So perfect copies that shoudl also be able to evolve just like him and use his same tactics while being so fast he shouldn't even be able to perceive them and so strong he'd get killed in one hit weren't able to do any of those things like Ikki because... they couldn't, which is never implied or said, but we are supposed to believe it.

You are telling me to believe this has internal consistency rather than Rakudai's writer doing a dumb move, when everything points to the later.

Yeah, that's skill at trying to defend something unsalvageable.
 
One they would be able to evolve just like him if they are legit perfect copies and they started the fight 48x stronger, more durable and faster.

Two there was no exchange for Ikki to evolve from what ive heard, Ikki just dashed forward and one shot.

So it is an unreasonable assumption.
 
Except we've established the copies aren't as skilled, so why should they be able to involve at the same rate he can evolve? If at all? Do you have any proof of that? Scans?

Without it, you can't argue he can just scale infinitely to any tier off of this feat. And even so, if naruto characters can be stronger then themselves why can't Ikki?

Once again all roads lead back to the same answer; skill.
 
The clones don't have Ikki's mentality, Sara can't copy that. Ikki defeated them by exploiting his own weakness. This feat is plain stupid, yes, but it has an explanation.
 
CynicalWeeaboo said:
Except we've established the copies aren't as skilled, so why should they be able to involve at the same rate he can evolve? If at all? Do you have any proof of that? Scans?

Without it, you can't argue he can just scale infinitely to any tier off of this feat. And even so, if naruto characters can be stronger then themselves why can't Ikki?

Once again all roads lead back to the same answer; skill.
Click to expand...
Again, if the copies aren't as skilled it's not very important as a feat, "Beat some strong but less skilled people" doesn't really stand out imo.

Naruto characters can be stronger than themselves in the past, but they can't be as strong as exact copies of themselves right now, no.

@Ion If they don't have the same mentality, then they ain't identical.
 
And they aren't identical. They are called half-hearted because the are identical copies of their body and powers, but they can't replicate his thought train.
 
A very bad explanation, because mentality doesn't suddenly make skill non existent, especially when the dude in question has instincts that do shit on their own according to Earl himself.

And because this was a skill feat, but as I've said before, fighting stronger people is Ikki's every day. If they were just dumb power that wasn't as skilled, then why is it a feat for his skill? Simple, it isn't.

Not to mention, at no point does Ikki does anything even remotely close to evolving to become 48 times faster, because otherwise there's literally no way at all that he could have killed them all before they could do anything at all. Yet he did. There's logic holes all over this feat, and even if we dumb it down where it makes sense, then it stops being a worthwhile feat in the first place, and we still end up at the same spot of this being a worthless feat that should be deleted.
 
The clones were stated to be perfect, exactly the same as the original. If they weren't as skilled or could not evolve like Ikki, this would not be the case.

Except you can. As I said this feat, on it's own, has Ikki being 48x stronger than himself, and then 2304x stronger than himself, and so on and so forth. Show me where Naruto characters do that, if you may?

Again, skill is not an excuse. You cannot do this kind of thing via skill alone. That just makes no sense, especially when the author somehow insists that Ikki doesn't do anything supernatural, which is basically a lie but I digress. This is like a normal human beating 4 living airplanes to death. Sure, it is theoretically possible, but the chances are so utterly minute and reliant on the opponents not doing anything that it may as well not exist.

@Ion

Oh this argument again. So wanting to win means walking into an obvious trap that you know will kill you now?
 
I never said anything about the clones not having Ikki's skill, I'm just saying what was explained on the novel.
 
Well he is either using supernatural energy or evolving if he's performing these feats. Something like a martial artist having supersonic movement or eating bullets. The verse I am currently reading the MC was quite literally stated to have evolved even with the absence of any supernatural energy
 
Beating someone 48x stronger and faster than you is a pretty impressive skill feat considering he won overwhelmingly. Beating people stronger than himself isn't rare for Ikki but beating 4 versions of his current self that were 48x stronger and faster? That's not a common feat. So unless you can say they were equally as skilled with scans as proof, this feat is still useable. Also moot point about mentality because it does play a large part in skill.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
Oh this argument again. So wanting to win means walking into an obvious trap that you know will kill you now?
Click to expand...
I'm giving the in-universe explanation of the feat. If you think it makes no sense, then it's not my fault.
 
Just nuke the feat, its so illogical it hurts to even think about because it's clear the author doesn't understand it either. Considering he gave three different descriptions that contradict one another. (perfect, half hearted, and different mentallity)
 
Its not really a big skill feat no, especially when they never even did anything and Ikki just "somehow" destroyed people that much stronger. He didn't even do anything special.

So they are perfect copies, but they are half hearted. And he beat them with skill and abusing his weaknesses, but they aren't nearly as skilled so he shouldn't have needed to do this, and they didn't even do anything and he attacked as normal so there was nothing he abused?

Whatever angle you look at this from, is bullshit. And yes, killing 4 people absurdly stronger than you in a single hit by no special means and just calling it skill is bullshit. PIS, that can't be used.
 
I have leave this clear since it's being a core part of the problem: we don't know if the clones were as skilled as Ikki is. They don't have his mentality, they can't replicate his thought train. That's why they are called half-hearted.
 
The feat itself says that they were simultaineously half-hearted, perfect, and had a different mentality

which are we using? Because Earl only uses the perfect one when he needs a skill feat, but uses the rest when he needs to defend it.
 
But that's my whole point Ion. Mentality doesn't equal skill, considering Ikki already reacts instantly to stuff even without conscious choice. So they should still be able to do things just as ikki and adapt just as Ikki.

But if that actually affects their skill for some reason, Ikki had to abuse weaknesses that he didn't even need to abuse because the dudes are way less skilled in the first place. So one way or the other, is the same circular hole that makes no sense.
 
This is a completely logical feat and honestly I'm saddened you all are struggling to see such a simple thing.

Basically: The clones were perfect copies functionally. Visually and physically. They were half hearted in the sense that the person who made them did so on a whim and they did not share his skill. Even if they DID share Ikki's skill, it was the Ikki of a few moments ago, not the Ikki that then proceeded to kill them all. So they were stronger than Ikki, but not Ikki. Ultimately, his skill allowed him to defeat 4 perfect copies that were all massively stronger because they did not share his skill and he is capable of evolving.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
The feat itself says that they were simultaineously half-hearted, perfect, and had a different mentality
Click to expand...
They are physically perfect, but their mentality isn't like Ikki's, so they are half-hearted. So, saying they are 100% perfect is wrong, the only thing we know they copy perfectly copy is his power.
 
I am more saddened you are actually thinking this is logical in anyway, Cynical. I don't see any logic here, besides the author focusing more on plot than actual sense.
 
@Cynical and they did not share his skill

Then it's not a skill feat, and shouldn't be used as such.

Even if they DID share Ikki's skill, it was the Ikki of a few moments ago, not the Ikki that then proceeded to kill them all.

They should have all evolved alongside Ikki.

Those are the two main problems with your reasoning.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
that is 100% headcanon and you know it
Click to expand...
No, it's not. That's what's it's explained on the novel. Anyway, the feat is stupid and clearly PIS, so I was just trying to explain it as they explained it in-verse.
 
Of course it's a skill feat. How is beating 4 versions of yourself who were all 48x stronger and faster than you anything but?

So basically: Ikki transcended his prior self to such a degree that he was able to solo those 4 copies. He evolved decades worth in the few moments there. Because once again, the clones did not have his mentality.
 
Because those versions are just stronger dudes.

And the fact he transcended or whatever is... like, your own headcanon. It is supported by nothing, Ikki isn't just continously growing stronger and faster by immense leaps every moment, and the writing doesn't even indicate that anything like this happened. You are just giving justifications that you think are adecuate.
 
If the clones are exact duplicates of him, they'd share whatever weird passive reactive evolution thing he supposedly has. To exploit weaknesses like thay would be a facet of skill, so if they're truly supposed to be equal to him in this regard, they would have to hold this same capability.

Either they aren't as skilled so the feat just isnt that relevant, or they are and it's contradictory and bad.
 
Except even if they aren't as skilled he still soloed 4 people 48x stronger AND faster than him. His ability to grow insane amounts in short periods of time is consistently shown and backed within the novels. It's also explicit that when Ikki grows it's not just his skill but all of his stats.

He can go through decades worth of this in a moment.

"There was no telling how many times their blades had crossed. How many times the steels had crash into each other. How many times they struck each other with all their might. But still the enemy before them would not go down. The blade of their souls struck each other back faster and harder without a step back. To defeat such an opponent would require becoming even faster, even stronger ― endlessly improving each other. They are going to the top. It's likely that if they had not met this person, it would have taken years, decades for it to reach this level ― their own potential. In this moment they both definitely felt it."

So yes. They do not share his ability to grow because they aren't as skilled. Even if they were they would objectively be starting from an inferior point in time compared to him. So again, this feat is completely useable. By far from the most dubious scaling or feat used on this wiki.
 
Also everyone seems to think that it's passive when it's not. It's like he automatically grows stronger but as he's fighting the growth he makes is immense. Every instance it's done he's actively fighting and just grows while he's doing it. So there is no reason they should scale with him just because he got stronger.
 
Of course it's a skill feat. How is beating 4 versions of yourself who were all 48x stronger and faster than you anything but?

From the way you're phrasing things it sounds like you're saying he grew stronger and faster, which is an accelerated development feat, not a skill feat. And even assuming that he grew more than 48x as powerful just from this statement is probably too dubious to be accepted, so it'd be rejected on that front.
 
Except in that feat, Ikki isn't jumping 48x in power in an instant, he's actually being pushed if "It's likely that if they had not met this person" doesn't make this obvious enough, which he wasn't with the clones, and this was happening over time... he destroyed the clones after dashing at them and just poof.

This case is literally nothing liek what happened when he was actually reactively evolving, narration doesn't say or imply or hint at this even a single bit, and at no point does Ikki ever show such a massive jump in stats in such little time - even in a much lengthier battle against someone that actually was pushing Ikki back instead of some useless clones he did away with in an instant.
 
Except if he was standing there, dashed forward and one shot there would have been no time for him to grow, there was no fight he just basically bitzed and one shot people who where 48x stronger and faster while having no reason to undergo his "Grow stronger in the mist of battle" since there was no battle.

Also as others have said he never before or seemingly after grew 48x stronger that fast with that little.
 
"They were improving each other at terrific speed just now.

They just made decades worth of progress walking a path in an instant."

How clear is this? Also, his growth is a part of his skill.

And can anyone actually show me the 48x statement? I've gone with it for sake of ease but who can actually back it up?
 
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