Ike vs Roy

[The_Smashor]

Roy's revisions are finally done, so this can happen now.

Rules: SBA, since speed dosn't need to be equalized.



He fights for his friends: 1 (GalacticIro)
Our Boy: 1 (Leon Help4)

Inconclusive:

 

[Leon_Help4]

Ike is more experienced in one v one, i think while Roy is a better strategist.

Didn't the ending winter also have daytime to nighttime law manipulation stuff? I think that should be 5-C or something by spinning the earth, I think Roy's profile just has the abilities we usually see in smash and does not have his soul restoration stuff. Also, is GBA Bolting the same speed as PoR/RD Bolting? And how are their APs?

Regardless, Roy can heal and just overcomeand if able to, take advantage of the terrain and other tactical advantages, but if Ike activates Eather and is able to keep Roy at bay at all times, he shold win.

Tough match, but maybe Ike 6/10 if he doesn't let Roy heal up from time to time, which would let him slowly outlast Ike.

 

[GalacticIron]

From what i understand, Roy beats Ike in AP (according to the link on Roy's profile, he sits at 53 petatons while Ike sits at 13, making Roy about 4 times stronger), but it's worth noting that Ike beats Roy in literally everything else: there is the obvious advantage in experience due to Ike not only being 5 years older but also having fought more battles due to participating in two major wars rather then just one. This along with fighting more major opponents that only he could harm and being the most skilled swordsmen in his continent while no such statement were ever made about Roy (at most, he's said to have surpassed his father, who we also don't know how skilled he is compared to his competition) make it safe to say he has the advantage in skill as well. Aether is also a big help to overcome the AP to a certain extend, and while said AP is quite notable, it's not enough to one-shot Ike and Ike's skill, experience and Aether give him means to overcome the AP gap. Over all, i vote Ike with mid diff.

 

[Leon_Help4]

Mmmm. Then Aether is not as defining in this situation since even megating half of Roy's AP/dura is not enough... Roy did get more "royal" training than Ike, and physical strength is not a real factor cuz AP, but Ike should have more skill in the battlefield for sure. Eliwood IS considered to be the strongest Knight of all of the continent, but that is maybe not as cool as beig the strongest in the continent, but Roy is not staying too much behind.

Aether heals half, and negates half durability in RD, i believe, which is still higher than Ike's AP (26.5 peta > 13), and Roy can still attack from afar and heal on his own.

So yeah, with the AP advantage and Roy being more of a strategist than Ike (thus more likely to handle his enviorement and healing better) , im changing to Roy, mid to high diff.

 

[Leon_Help4]

Yeah, Ive read the FE wiki and Aether halves durability, not AP. So Ike is still at a disadvantage. (53 peta > 13 Peta.) But the skill changes between PoR and RD, giving Ike a triple power boost in RD while only halving defense on PoR, is there an in lore reason for this, or is it just game mechanics, we do ignore Falchion's exclusive dragon effectiveness for being game mechanics in earlier threads.

Id say that if Ike can survive an attack 4 times stronger than him, Roy should be able to take a Aether boosted attack from ike as well. 26.5 peta (Roys Dura halved) - 39 peta (Ike's ap x 3) = -12.5 peta, or barely 0.4 times stronger than Roy's durability.

 

[GalacticIron]

I don't think Roy's training and strategy matter much, as the justification for his tactical capabilities apply to pretty much every lord in the series, including Ike, and Ike's experience and skill simply outclass Roy's training (royal training doesn't always mean the best training, mercenaries are often just as well if not better trained then royals, which has even been shown throughout the Fire Emblem series). It's also worth noting that Roy can't heal forever and without a proper established battlefield it's hard to argue making use of terrain (heck, even with terrain, nothing is stopping Ike from doing the same). Basically, Roy's only real advantage is his AP, which certainly matters, but since Ike matches and surpasses Roy in everything else, i do give him a slight edge.

 

[Leon_Help4]

Well, unlike most lords, Roy IS the tactician.

Eirika obeys Seth, Ephraim makes it up as he goes, Marth listens to Chris, Chrom/Lucina to Robin, FE7 follows Mark, Ike listens to Soren, i think only Alm, Seliph and Roy are the ones that have the tactician "skills".

Which is not as useful in battle as raw combat experience, which Ike does excell at, but if Roy can plan around Ike and id comparable to Eliwood at his prime, he is not going to be that much far behind Ike.


And Healing. Roy can heal three times as well as falchion in terms of HP, and has the same defense boost as Ragnell. Not to mention his AP/Durability is high enough for Aether (even RD) to not be a one hit kill. And, i think Weapon uses are a game mechanic, and in 1v1 fights, i think it is not reasonable to argue either Roy or Ike would run out of uses on their weapons, and i am pretty sure Nihil does not negate weapon use skills either.


So yeah, i think i still lead Roy.

 

[GalacticIron]

Where was Eliwood ever said to be the strongest knight in Elibe? It's not mentioned in his profile and i don't recall anything aluding to it in the games. Also, you're technically wrong about the tactics this, as all lords recieve some help in that regard from tacticians or advisors, with Roy, Alm and Seliph being assisted by Merlinus, Lucas and Oifey respectively in that regard.

 

[Leon_Help4]

Well, Roy is the main leader commander and calls the shots, Merlinus has not been the most "tactical" and only gives very mininal advice to Roy and the boi is the one considered to be the leader of the lycian alliance after Cecilia.

And "Little is said of Eliwood's past in this game, owing to his relatively small part in the game's story; despite this, his former mentor Marcus does shed some light on Eliwood's past in supports with Lilina. According to Marcus, Eliwood was once considered one of the greatest knights in all of Lycia" From the fe wiki. Will look thru the supports later if this does not comvince you.

Dont get me wrong, Ike does have more experience fighting than Roy, but Roy is not getting uber stomped.

 

[TheGatememer]

Didn't the ending winter also have daytime to nighttime law manipulation stuff? I think that should be 5-C or something by spinning the earth
Actually I have done an unapproved calc of this in the revision thread for roy. If it gets accepted, he is almost 5-C, but is just very high end of 6-A.

 

[Leon_Help4]

The thing with the ending winter is that itd various events at once, so, it is a combination of various feats into one output. The spinming thing, the nuclear winter like thing, i think changing the "laws of nature" and forcing the dragons to turn into manaketes is a very specific form of power null.


But that is for another thread.

I still think Roy wins this one for having a decent AP lead that Ike cannot match even with RD Aether and Roy is while not as experienced as Ike, not a novice or amateur for him to be completely swept thru the floor in skill, not to mention he can also heal 3 times better than Falchion (Which Nihil cannot negate) and fight on a distance just like Ike.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Sword of Seals only has proof of being above the Divine Weapons individually, not all at once. Where as Ike is half the AP of Ashunera. So actually Ike has more evidence of the AP advantage. Additionally, Ike has Nihil and can just spam Aether, which both reduces durability in half and heals all the damage dealt. So this could be a hax stomp in Ike's favor.

 

[Leon_Help4]

Well, nihil does not affect Roy at all since Healing is mot a combat skill, and if the AP is wrong, it should be noted.

Looking thru the threads, Yahn says the SoS is stroger than the Divine Weapons, is that not proof of it being stronger than at least 2 of them combined?

Or being stronger than Durandal/Armads that were used to kill Ninian (who killed 2 fire dragons on her own) and the Fire Dragons (who were stated capable of turning the continent to ash over time?)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The profile outright states it's stronger than them Individually, and it's explained in the blog the power of the Peak Divine Weapons individually.

 

[Leon_Help4]

Can you link this blog?

 

[Leon_Help4]

Mmmm. Seems fishy, but 7~ Peta for Roy is clearly not enough to beat Ike at 13 peta.

I think it is way more likely that Yahn was talkimg about the SoS being stronger than at least 2 of them if not all 8. But if it is accurate it is just a single Holy weapon, Roy just doesnt have the AP to beat Ike, and Aether halving Roy's dura is enough for Ike to win.

So, Roy if the SoS is at least above 36 peta, or Ike if it is below that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This blog shows how strong each Divine Weapon is individually. At 6.649 petatons. However, the details are outdated as JustSomeWeirdo made a lengthy thread a while back saying it can't be assumed the Sealed Sword is stronger than all 8 weapons put together, but that it's indeed stronger than them individually.

Plus, Roy did struggle to fight Zephiel, who had his own Divine Weapon. So Sealed Sword shouldn't be that much stronger than Exaacus. Also, just because the statement was plural, it doesn't mean it's stronger than more than one of them, it just means out of all of them it's the strongest overall.

And no, the gap for Ike being over 12.5 Petatons is still enough to give Ike the edge. Plus Ike has hax by his side + Roy doesn't have much against durability negation plus he has to use up a an attack opportunity and ammunition to heal. Where as Ike can constantly heal himself.

 

[Leon_Help4]

There is no scaling from ninian or the fire dragons nor the earth spinning thing in that calc.

Zephiel putting fight against Roy when he is considered stronger than the holy weapons is PIS if the difference is too great or it can be argued he is just that skilled.

Not to mention we do not have them at 6/7 peta durability because Cecilia survived a critical hit from zephiel, so there is some PIS in FE6.


Regardless, ive made my vote. Roy if any future calcs or scaling or Yahn's statement puts him at least above 36 peta or Ike if it is anything below that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's not how it works around here, we don't just guess work multipliers. Actually, Zephiel was simply almost as strong as Roy + a skilled fighter on his own. That gap between their powers simply isn't that great and you can't call PIS for everything.

The Fire Dragon and Ninian stuff was brought up and rejected and is a complete loop hole. Fire Dragon is not Tier 6 plus he was more of a challenge than Nergal and was a challenge for 4-5 Divine weapon wielders in canon. Plus the Divine Weapons have since weakened, so we can't scale anyone to the Tier 6 calculation. The three fire Dragons taking a whole month just to burn one continent is not even close to Continent level. And Ninian taking out three Fire Dragons and weakening one also caused herself to collapse. And as for her getting one-shotted by a weakened Durandel, that just proves all the more the loop hole. Either she's a glass canon, or it's PIS. It does nothing except imply everyone else is well below the 6 Petatons.

Celica's feat is a massive outlier; there's no way we're going back to making all the fodder characters High 6-A again.

 

[Leon_Help4]

Outlier/PIS. I still find it a bit fishy, but its for another thread to decide.

I'll wait for further developments.

I am voting Ike for now if Roy does not get stronger

 

[GalacticIron]

Sword of Seals only has proof of being above the Divine Weapons individually, not all at once. Where as Ike is half the AP of Ashunera. So actually Ike has more evidence of the AP advantage. Additionally, Ike has Nihil and can just spam Aether, which both reduces durability in half and heals all the damage dealt. So this could be a hax stomp in Ike's favor.

Does Roy have any advantages here?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not really, it's kind of a repeat of this thread.

 

[Leon_Help4]

Ive already debunked this being a hax stomp of any way and how Nihil is not affecting anything.

Its just an AP stomp for Ike for now.

 

[GalacticIron]

Having twice someone's AP isn't automatically a stomp. Generally speaking, a 6 petaton character can still survive attacks from a 20 petaton character, but Ike's aether and being superior in pretty much everything but speed (in which they are tied) makes it pretty decisive in Ike's favor.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It can still be a stomp if there's a combination of many different thinks that make it a stomp. Sure Roy has no passive haxes, so Ike doesn't need Nihil. But Aether is still pretty broken levels of hax where Ike really needs very few hits. And there's the fact that Ike will be damaging Roy and healing health faster than Roy can damage him, while Ike will damage Roy a lot more than Roy can try to heal himself with.

 

[Leon_Help4]

Aether is not "broken hax". Its just healing + durability reduction + maybe 3x power increase.

Roy wins if his AP is high enough like it was on the beginning of the thread since even with the Aether 3x increase only gives Ike a 0.4x advantage for a single attack if his dura is halved, against Roy's 4Xs advantage in regular combat.

But if he is 6/7 peta, he is just losing eventually.

 

[Leon_Help4]

This is an AP battle. Even eithout Aether, ike is winning cuz of his 2x advantage, Roy does not have a win condition by numbers alone.

 

[GalacticIron]

Again, AP isn't the only important factor in vs debates, other things that matter in a fight include skill, experience, abilities and speed if not equalized. And yeah, Ike beats Roy in all these factors except for speed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

They're equal in speed in terms of calcs, and Ike is actually a speedier unit in PoR Vs SoS comparison with him being even better than that in RD. Yes, there are a lot of factors, but if the outclassing happens to be in literally every way and in significant ways all around, it can lead to stomp category.

 

[Leon_Help4]

Any "speedier" arguents are based on stats, which are all game mechanics.

If Roy was 56 peta, he is winning even if Ike uses RD Aether due to the sheer difference in numbers alone.

If Roy is just 7 peta or anywhere too much below 40 peta, he is getting beaten due to higher experience and overall AP, specially if Ike uses RD Aether and divides his durability by two.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not everything is entirely game mechanics; some details are indications of being slightly faster. Still the same tier but it's still pretty general that Sword Masters are faster than Armor Knights.

 

[Leon_Help4]

Thats still game mechanics, but some characters ARE considered faster than others, like maybe Jaffar >Lyn or Horse users in travel speed > all.

But class changes are dependant on the plot and the verse, we do not have FE7 classes for FE6 units with holy weapons.


Regardless, both scale to the same spell (if PoR/RD bolting is the same as GBA Bolting, i dunno, but it should be similar speeds), and Ike has a considerable AP advantage, so he is going to win, specially with Aether. To the point it might be a stomp by numbers alone.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Roy's better and cooler in Smash Ultimate, therefore Roy stomps easily Also he's my main, I swear there is no bias at all

 

[GalacticIron]

Roy's better and cooler in Smash Ultimate, therefore Roy stomps easily Also he's my main, I swear there is no bias at all

He's always been discount Marth to me, including in his home game where he's about as usefull in combat as a broken arm untill he gets the Binding Blade. Ike is actually good in his home games.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

They scale from the same speed feat, yes. But one of them has a much bigger scaling chain, and/or is much more casual at dodging the same feat than others. Ike has a longer chain of blitzing A > B > C > D. Roy doesn't really have any notable story track records of him being faster than other party members nor any villains considered far above the average soldier to the same level Ike's setting does.

And yeah, Ike's considered one of the strongest Lords in game and story, where as Roy was portrayed as fairly average prior to obtaining the Sword of Seals.

 

[PaChi2]

Roy wins.

Ike's High 6-A mode is a one use attack.

 

[Leon_Help4]

How strong is Ike normally?

Regardless, no. They scale from the same feat and Roy scales directly from the FE7 cast, who have beaten multiple generals that can keep up with Ursula.

Not that it matters that much since Ike is stomping if his AP if its just that much above Roy's, i do not know if Ike needs Micaiah to be around from him to get the High 6-A boost nor if it is just a one time thing specific against Ashera, since the final boss does let everyone hurt her, but she just heals if she is brought down to 0 HP.

If Roy had the 52 peta (he should have imo), then there is nothing Ike can do to keep up nor hurt Roy in any significant way before he just heals.

If anything, if we allow Aether to have the in-game properties, then Ike should instead just get durability negation with his amped form and not an increase in AP.

Ashera's High 6-A comes from half of Ashunera's feat. Which is flooding the earth, aka. Hax.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Speed scaling chain

High 6-A Ike > Ashera = Yune > Base RD Ike > Sephiran > Deghisea > Black Knight > PoR Ike > PoR Ashnard > Everyone else.

SoS Roy > Idoun > Zephiel = Divine Weapon users > Base Roy = Everyone else

 

[Leon_Help4]

Ike never blitzed Ashera. His blast hit her, and he did not even move in his amped form, do there is no indication he is faster.

 

[PaChi2]

I dont get what speed has to do with power.

Why do you think that Ashera or Yune have better reactions than the rest?