Iihiko Shishime vs Shigara Masami (Battle for 2nd strongest 8-B)

[DontTalkDT]

The Irreversible Destroyer vs Freedom Award 3000 'World Complete'

Speed Equal

8-B versions


Battle takes place in central park like usual, but everything's on fire.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Iihiko doesn't recognize anything she does while having The Hero. Anything she can do bout this?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Summon something far out of his league.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's physically, but even assuming Iihiko cannot deal with White Queen.

The Hero says hi.

 

[DontTalkDT]

And does what exactly?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Basically pull the nigh non existent chance that she doesn't use her win conditions.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Not nigh nonexistent, completly nonexistent. A summoner will summon things.

Also, the hero won't do something like make her stand around doing nothing. The luck works in PIS like manners. Note how in practice people in fights against Iihiko always used everything they can.

And the moment she has her barrier up she is basically immune to it anyway.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

A summoner will summon things, kinda depends on how quick they can summon it. If they go for it right away etc. And iirc the summoning isn't instant.

Yes, and makes someone like Ajimu unable to dodge a rubber-band.

That's assuming he will even recognize the barrier you mean?

 

[DontTalkDT]

She can instantly create the protective circle. Summoning takes a short amount of time, but that doesn't really matter anyway. Shigara is (by nature, not by skill) immune to physical attacks, which is everything Iihiko uses.

Which relates to the debate how?

He has no feats of ignoring a barrier of this scale. That thing protects one even against the laws of the universe, both physical and supernatural laws, and things above Medaka Box's AP grade. Don't attempt to NLF things.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah, and iihiko can instantly not recognize it. And The Hero, dropping the chances she will open up with protective cricle. And why is the immunity a thing? Why can she not be damaged?

Because it matters considering the chance of a gal who can be everywhere she wants not being able to dodge a ruber band thrown at her.

Against laws? Misogi has shown to erase laws with All Fiction just fine. As for AP paygrade, tell that to Durability Negation. As for NLF considering the last time someone tried to give Ajimu 3-A for tanking the big bang we said "let's not cus she should be far higher", and he has even shown to disregard All Fiction's 4D erasure.

 

[DontTalkDT]

And? Then the summoning doesn't hurt Iihiko, but he can't exactly non-recognize the White Queen due to her being way too powerful. Or do you mean the protective circle? In that case NLF.

The protective circle protects against all external influence. Including all unexplored-class material which are the manifestations of the laws that govern the two universes. This includes for instance the Red Lady, who is the manifestation of destiny itself and can do things like decide which of all possible destinies will manifest itself.

For the no physical damage by nature: Shigara is a god and as such a supernatural entity. In bloodsign these are immune to physical damage, because physics never applied to supernatural entities in the first place. So you need non-physics based attacks to harm her.


Yeah, but we aren't talking about dodging attacks here. Also, Ajimu not dodging that wasn't necessarily due to the hero. Ajimu can actually be hit by too fast attacks and all, like when Medaka prevented her fro doing suicide and stuff.


Misogi has erased no laws even remotely on this scale (and I don't know why that would even matter since Iihikos destructive power didn't need to content with that, only his defensive power).

Give me the mechanism mentioned for the durability negation that justifies it bypassing 3-C forcefields. I know there is none, because I have read the series, but entertain me.

Ajimu tanking the big bang literally wouldn't give her 3-A for entirely different reason. She is officiall ranked unknown for a reason.

Small scale 4D erasure was never and, especially after the tiering revision, is not recognized as higher power. Also, the protective circle can take attacks from the WQ who does 4D spacetime erasure for breakfast.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Wait before we continue to spare brain cells.

Can she even deal with Iihiko's legend swapping. So Iihiko loses, the legend passes, he wins.

 

[Everything12]

The Materials, which are the name of the things that are summoned, are the reason why the protective barrier is used, and all of them interact with the world by possessing vessels, possession is a complete non-issue.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

What type of possession?

Also protective barrier may or may not be put up due to iihiko's insane luck.

 

[Everything12]

The barrier IS ALWAYS PUT UP, it's a automatic feature of the system that they use to fight, their is zero possibility that it's not put up in a fight. And it's Spiritual Possession, sorta, because it also changes the outside appearance as the vessel becomes the Material that they are hosting. Thought the Circle can also protect against the other types as it works by completely cutting the user off from everything outside, and has shown preventing mental abilities from working on them.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Aside from what Everything12 said there are even more things against that.

The White Queen can erase his legend from history and if you are killed by her, resurrection by any means becomes impossible.

Additionally artificial sacred grounds act like soul vaccums that suck disembodied souls straight into the afterlife.

Lastly, even the weakest material can easily defeat evil spirits and similar disembodied souls. Masami could just punch him before he ever gets that far.

There is even more, but you get the idea.


In the first place, deosn't Iihiko's posession not only function on bodies prepared for him?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Passive barrier? Huh? Pretty sure DT has mentioned it being in character thought based, but not passive.


@DT

Nah Iihiko's possession works on everyone who defeats him as stated by Hanten. But erasing the legend? I mean physically punching Iihiko to death is 1 thing, but Iihiko doesn't recognize hax so unless she has shown anything leagues above any ability in Medaka it ain't happening.

 

[Everything12]

It's passively created regardless of the user's wishs when they start the summoning, and the Summoning is the only way they use to attack.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Nah Iihiko's possession works on everyone who defeats him as stated by Hanten.

Chapter?

But erasing the legend? I mean physically punching Iihiko to death is 1 thing, but Iihiko doesn't recognize hax so unless she has shown anything leagues above any ability in Medaka it ain't happening.

She rewrote history of an entire country and erased a piece of information from both universes, which is above what anyone in Medaka Box demonstrated in that regard. And the WQ's changes can't be reversed anyway.

Additionally this isn't affecting Iihiko, but his legend, so his defense wouldn't apply anyway.

And then there are, you know, all the other things I mentioned and more.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Here

Rewriting history is how much different than erasing chunks from it?

 

[Everything12]

"Erasing Information: The White Queen is able to erase information. She demonstrated this ability in the past, when she erased all information about who Kyousuke's mother and little sister were, making the entire world forget this information. This is not simple loss of memory, but the world's data being erased." this, plus Wisdom telling her how Iihiko works should allow her to prevent his Legend possession by erasing his Legend from the world.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah, Misogi does that too.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Rewriting history is how much different than erasing chunks from it?

Strange question and depends on the mechanics?

It's also worth mentioning that the Masami Iihiko fights would just be a avatar of the true Shigara. Though, to be fair, we don't really list that currently since Materials can't remanifest themself if said avatar is defeated.

 

[Everything12]

Misogi's is Causality Manipulation/Subjective Reality, while the White Queens is Information Manipulation, completely different powers.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

They acompish the same thing really, just through different mechanics. So iihiko can null.

@DT

Hmm, what would that mean (for her to be an avatar)? If it means regen based on creating clones it should be a stomp for Masami.

Btw, is the circle passive or not?

 

[Everything12]

Yeah, no that's not how it works.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah, no that's not how it works.

Do you mean the "iihiko doesn't recognize"?

 

[Everything12]

I mean just because they have sorta similar effects does not mean Iihiko resists it as the effect only looks similar but does completely different things, especially when the only other Information Manipulation in verse is the limited non-offensice Skill that Ajimu uses to count her Skills, that's not how it works.

The Ritual to Summon the Circle is thought based and will ALWAYS be her first move as she uses absolutely zero other ways to fight.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It's not resistance doe. It's power null.

 

[Everything12]

You know what I meant, the point still stands, he has never Nullified Information Manipulation and just because All Fiction's Causality Manipulation effect does something that looks similar does not allow him to nullify it as they still work completely different.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Power Null doesn't have limitations like that.

It's like saying "he only nulled water manip before so he can't null fire manip".

 

[DontTalkDT]

Power Null doesn't have limitations like that.
It's like saying "he only nulled water manip before so he can't null fire manip".

That's kinda exactly how it works, unless the power has a known mechanism to argue otherwise. Without mechanism that one can extrapolate upon only powers known to be negateable are negated.

For instance instant death via Death Manipulation and instant death via causality manipulation are entirely different and nulling the former definitely doesn't imply nulling the latter.

To that comes the vastly different extent in scale, since the WQ affected two universes.

Hmm, what would that mean (for her to be an avatar)? If it means regen based on creating clones it should be a stomp for Masami.

She can't create clones herself. But it means that even if for any reason whatsoever Iihikos possession would actually work, she can just poof her avatar and he dies for lack of other possession targets around.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

We know he will null abilities that fit into the categories of Skills from Medaka Box, that is confirmed. We also do have something of a mechanism that they just "don't reach him" but I assume that isn't what you are looking for

 

[Firephoenixearl]

What? No, there is a perfectly clear known mechanism that says "anything he can't recognize won't affect him" which has shown to deal with over 800 known abilities and easily over 12 quadrillion unknown hax. So it only becomes a matter of not pressing the NLF button on him nullifying something completely above his paygrade. Not something minorly different from something he has already shown to nullify.

Sorry DT, you know that is not the limitation of power null nor does it apply in this case.

About the true self, fair point. Hmm, seems like a stomp then.

 

[DontTalkDT]

What? No, there is a perfectly clear known mechanism that says "anything he can't recognize won't affect him"

I think you don't understand what a mechanism is. A mechanism explains how something works. In this case it would explain how something he doesn't recognize is stopped from affecting him. That's needed for extrapolating, because if we don't know how the ability does what it does, we can't say how it would interact with something it has never interacted with.

Sorry DT, you know that is not the limitation of power null nor does it apply in this case.

It is and it does. Powernull depends on how mechanisms interact, that was recently confirmed in multiple threads on the topic. It also depends on power, unless the mechanism suggests something different.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Before getting into the mechanics. Pls tell me why Power Null would be unable to nullify information if it has nullified pretty much everything under the sun. DT you are taking things out of context here. The threads were never about "unless it shows to nullify every existing ability it cannot be assumed to do so", it was about "If your best feat is nullifying 8-C fire don't go around nullifying 3-A fire" and "If your best feat is nullifying elements, and shadow manip don't go around nullifying conceptual and law hax". It was never a case of "Well if it has nullified causality manip, can it nullify information manip?". Pls do not use this argument, it is illogical at best to assume absurd limitations like these when it has clearly shown the capabilities of nullifying or interacting with similar levels/types of hax.

On to the concrete example:

Secret Research (µâàÕá▒µô쵃╗, Sh─½kuretto Ris─üchi): Information governing skill

Battle Check (ÕëúÕ║ÀÞ║½µû¡, Batoru Chekku): Getting information after a cut skill.

Information manip from Ajimu, didn't work on Iihiko.

As for the mechanics of the null, as Iap said:

The skills can't reach him.

 

[Ionliosite]

>Blood Sign Barriers

>Passive

That's just totally false and contradicted by a good chunck of the novel.

 

[Ionliosite]

Also, speaking of the barriers, Shigara has access to 2 types, one that needs her to throw a can that needs several seconds to activate, and another one that is thought based due to her place as a god, but that one will also cover her enemy with an equal barrier.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Pls tell me why Power Null would be unable to nullify information if it has nullified pretty much everything under the sun.

I don't consider Ajimu's unknown abilities as proof for anything. I literally know a character with 14000 abilities that all are just fire manipulation. So I keep it to what he has shown to negate on the level he negated it.

It was never a case of "Well if it has nullified causality manip, can it nullify information manip?". Pls do not use this argument, it is illogical at best to assume absurd limitations like these when it has clearly shown the capabilities of nullifying or interacting with similar levels/types of hax.
Information and Causality manipulation are completely unrelated powers, even if they can archive some of the same effects. Without known mechanism it is not okay to assume that for exactly the same reason as nullifying fire doesn't mean you can nullify causality: There is just no reason it should do so in the first place.

On to the concrete example:

Secret Research (µâàÕá▒µô쵃╗, Sh─½kuretto Ris─üchi): Information governing skill

Battle Check (ÕëúÕ║ÀÞ║½µû¡, Batoru Chekku): Getting information after a cut skill.

Information manip from Ajimu, didn't work on Iihiko.

These skills have no known potency. Even if we take the 3 word descriptions at face value we have no reason to assume they are anything, but the least potent possible versions of these skills. Whether these information even mean information in the same sense as what the WQ is doing is questionable as that, given that the WQ deals with information forming reality more than knowledge information.

As for the mechanics of the null, as Iap said:

The skills can't reach him.

Now I know where the idea that Medaka can't copy too strong abilities came from...

On topic: Even assuming "they don't reach him" is literal (I think it is meant to say as much as "they are negated/cancelled before they can even start affecting him"; anyone got an idea what the dragonball comparison is about?), why don't they reach him?

For example: Is he increasing the distance between him and the skill via space manipulation? Then he could be affected by things with larger range or that can ignore that effect, setting a clear limit for what can and can not affect him.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Don't want to say the 13 quadrillion, but the 800+ can be used to say what types of powers he can power null for sure.

Information and Causality manipulation are completely unrelated powers, even if they can archive some of the same effects. Without known mechanism it is not okay to assume that for exactly the same reason as nullifying fire doesn't mean you can nullify causality: There is just no reason it should do so in the first place.

Yes, but you're nullifying "powers" not "nullifying causality". An insane false equivalency on the fire, because comparing something like the ability to shoot fire to something as abstract as causality is plain stupidity. The same cannot be said about information and causality which can pretty much acomplish the same thing.

These skills have no known potency. Even if we take the 3 word descriptions at face value we have no reason to assume they are anything, but the least potent possible versions of these skills. Whether these information even mean information in the same sense as what the WQ is doing is questionable as that, given that the WQ deals with information forming reality more than knowledge information.

As for potency All Fiction acomplishing the same things differently already proves potency is not a problem.

Now I know where the idea that Medaka can't copy too strong abilities came from...

That did not come from this, it came from another statement on the style users or sth like that, can't remember, but was already debunked.

On topic: Even assuming "they don't reach him" is literal (I think it is meant to say as much as "they are negated/cancelled before they can even start affecting him"; anyone got an idea what the dragonball comparison is about?), why don't they reach him?

Considering they compare it to a form of "different dimension" and even correctly give the "higher dimension" example (with breaking her by breaking the paper instead of interacting with her).

For example: Is he increasing the distance between him and the skill via space manipulation? Then he could be affected by things with larger range or that can ignore that effect, setting a clear limit for what can and can not affect him.

Considering All Fiction has universal range, and there is questionable dimension hopping (from Medaka fighting Wargold), i'd say that isn't the case.