Warlock vs Shigara Masami

[WHYNAUT]

8-B Warlock with all subclasses

Speed equal

SBA other wise


Warlock (Destiny):

Shigara Masami:

Incon:

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Pm DT, he's the main guy for Shigara.

 

[DontTalkDT]

What does Warlock start with?

 

[WHYNAUT]

Well that varies, but they tend to start off by using powerful Light abilities, such as a Nova Bomb (quantum manipulation, space-time manipulation, gravity manipulation, matter manipulation and life manipulation) and the like.

 

[DontTalkDT]

And here I thought they lead with guns...
In any case that should be blocked by Shigara's Protective Circle, which (one way or another) is what she starts with.
She then proceeds to do summoning. The obvious choice would be The White Queen.

 

[WHYNAUT]

Right, and this protective circle also defends against barrier bypassing attacks and abilities that simply affect the target from a distance?

 

[DontTalkDT]

What are "barrier bypassing attacks" and how does it work? Also consider that we are talking about a 3-C barrier here to begin with.
Generally speaking it the barrier protects against everything in the bloodsign verse. So for abilities that simply affect targets from a distance that is a yes. It's not just a barrier, but also an immortality field btw.

 

[WHYNAUT]

Some of the Warlock's attacks just completely ignore barriers, affecting the target as if the barrier wasn't there. Nearly all of the Warclok's abilities ignore durability, so I don't think the barrier being 3-C will play much of a role.
Does anyone in Blood Sign have macro-quantum matter manipulation? Or quantum manipulation? Or electro-magnetism manipulation? Or black hole creation?
The type 2 immortality, right? Most of the Warlock's Light attacks completely disintegrate the enemy if they don't have sufficiently powerful resistances, so would she still be able to do anything if she does get hit?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Power wise it plays a role for a barrier with power nullifying properties. If it "just ignores barriers" with no specific mechanism attached then I'm going to say it doesn't work. There are tons of abilities the protective circle blocks that would ignore normal barriers.
Bloodsign characters have erasure that completely erase matter and energy. Quantum dispersal or whatever that is would be below that on the matter manipulation level. Things like electromagnetism and gravity obviously don't work either. The protective circle is straight up designed to completely protect from everything the laws of the universe could do.

The protective circles immortality is explicitly designed to keep the user at least healthy enough to still continue fighting. (once it is lifted the user might instantly die, though)

 

[WHYNAUT]

There's barriers that protect against all things you mentioned, including attacks that would normally bypass barriers, in Destiny too, such as the Ward if Dawn. But the Warlock still has attacks that bypass those. Not to mention that their resistance negation works on barriers.

That's existence erasure, not matter manipulation. And EE is a commonly resisted ability in Destiny too, so that doesn't change anything.

Because someone has those abilities? Or for some other reason?

The Light is explicitly separate from the rules of existence, so it can't be affected by them, but can in turn affect those rules. The Warlock also has layered reality warping and law manipulation.

Okay, but what are its best feats of doing so? Just assuming it can keep the user alive against anything would be a NLF.

And does the White Queen have such a barrier?

 

[DontTalkDT]

That just isn't really an argument against a barrier that is a dozen of tiers above you and resists everything the laws of two universes could do. Without a proper mechanism, it can't even be considered hax. Basically, you're hanging into a NLF there.

Destroying matter is also a form of matter manipulation. I mean, what kind of matter manipulation are you even meaning? Applying force on a quantum scale? That would not work as force, in general, is blocked.
In any case if the manifestations of the laws of physics themself can't do anything against it, physics manipulation based attacks won't have any effect.

It's nice that the light is apart of the rules of existence... but when was that an issue? Point is that it does nothing against the protective circle which some law of existence couldn't accomplish as well. Though, if we're talking about that point it's not like being outside the normal laws of existence would suffice to be outside of the laws governed by the unexplored class. They aren't just the laws of physics, but also the laws which the gods of every mythology have to follow in either of the two universes. Rule-breaking stuff is basically included.

Fair point on the immortality. Physical damage, I guess. Strictly speaking, it's stated to work as long as the character can't be considered dead yet. I think decapitation is the best example we're given, although the implications are more far-reaching given that someone once tried to use the protective circle to create a world completely void of death.

If she really wanted to the White Queen could manipulate the barrier or Shigara can give her such a barrier.... she really doesn't need it, though. She is virtually impossible to kill and with a thought the warlock is gone. She has this nice property where it is impossible to resurrect from her killing by pretty much any means whatsoever. Or at least anything that isn't conceptual in nature or similar.

 

[WHYNAUT]

How is it not? AP has nothing to do with whether a barrier can be bypassed. All of those resistances and more are already included in Destiny barriers and yet those can be bypassed. If barriers that are better than the Protective Circle in every way except tier can be bypassed, I don't see how that's NLF. You also did not adress the resistance negation. Like there's barriers that have all of the resistances the Protective Circe has and more. Those barriers also stop attacks that would normally bypass barriers, such as attacks that rip through space and time, similarly to the White Queen's ability. Then there's barriers like the Ward of Dawn, which can stop even attacks that bypass the aforementioned barrier and the Warlock has attacks that can bypass the Ward of Dawn.

You can't destroy matter. If matter is destroyed that means nothing is left, which is EE. Either that or it was broken down into smaller particles, which can be any level of matter manipulation. But it can't be entirely destroyed without it being EE. Besides aren't those attacks from the White Queen, who only attacked the barriers with projectiles and the like? Quantum manipulation is not necessarily based on forces.

I'm talking about all laws of existence, not just physics. And Destiny has non-standard laws as well. You also didn't adress the layered reality warping and law manipulation.

Well that does sound impressive, but I doubt they had deaths, such as being ripped apart through the manipulation of quatum fields and having reality be shattered, in mind.

The Warlock has High-Godly regen, so that's no problem. Besides the White Queen doesn't resist most of the Warlock's abilities. From what I saw her Type 8 respawns her in the universe of the Materials, correct me if I'm wrong. So wouldn't she be stuck there? Because I don't see dimensional travel on her profile.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Without a mechanism, it isn't hax. You can't extrapolate to higher levels with it. It's like you have a sword that can "cut through anything". If that doesn't have a mechanism for how it cuts through stuff you can't claim it cuts through things higher in tier than it has demonstrated.
Unless said negation has a known mechanism it's bound to feats of power. That's because said negation could, for instance, work by cancelling out the supernatural powers the forcefield requires to have said properties. Or open holes in forcefields prior to impact. Etc. In such a case more power would make it harder to negate.
Or to quote from the power null page:

It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this ability can nullify anything that falls within the phenomena their powers are made to counter. It is to be assumed that any negation power has its limitations based on the strongest thing it has nullified, and a character may be resistant to the ability (at least in one of its forms), preventing it from having its usual effects.
However, certain forms of Power Nullification may prevent the usage of powers through less direct methods, making resistance less useful and the strength of the ability less relevant.

The first bold part on how it generally is, the second on how it is when special mechanisms are mentioned. The exact same applies for your barrier bypassing. (It's a sub-class of power null)

The White Queen can just attack the world directly, destroying spacetime, matter and energy that is in it. It's not necessarily a projectile or anything of the sort at all. For the other thing: You realize that one phenomenon can be several abilities, right? I can tell you that erasing matter was classified as matter manipulation for ages, until the EE page was created. You also still haven't told me what kind of quantum manipulation the dude actually does. I see no way a forcefield that blocks matter erasure, obviously application of force and interference from the personification of matter itself could be affected by quantum manipulation or anything of the sorts.

What's "layered" reality warping and law manipulation supposed to be? Like reality warping that can reality warp things that resist reality warping? If so, the more important question would be how powerful the reality warping that was originally resisted was in the first place. If that was weaker than what the circle resists the layer doesn't mean it's overcome.

The White Queen can negate high-godly regen. Although, one kind of high-godly regeneration is of course not the same as every other kind. It once again depends on how it works and stuff. If he just survived erasure from history or something without added context, then the White Queen can negate forms of high-godly that can do that.
You would be wrong about the BFR. I mean, I doubt he would even get through the 512 versions without dying first, but her type 8 doesn't reset her either. The influence thing keeps her in the world. She didn't even temporarily disappear until the Colorless Little Girl overcame that. If you pass that barrier she is still not dead, but you would at least get rid of her for a day.... buuuut Shigara is a summoner remember? As long as her summoned being isn't actually defeated she can just instantly summon a new one to replace it. And then she can get rid of the new one to just resummon the White Queen.

 

[WHYNAUT]

That's a falce equivelance. The difference is that the sword interacts with whatever it is cutting, this does not. If someone can directly attack inside the body of another, without interacting with the outside, higher durability doesn't stop that either. It's not powernull or negation either. Besides it works on the barriers of higher tiered characters just fine, so it's obviously not tied to tier. Also you still didn't adress the resistance negation. And if you were adressing the resistance negation with NLF and the powernull page, then I disagree. It's not negating the barriers, so the tier doesn't matter whatsoever. It's negating the resistances, including the resistances to durability negating abilities, which would then be able to break through the barrier.

Okay, so the page is outdated and it should in fact be EE? I don't understand what your point is. It seems to be mostly manipulating quantum fields. Now how is that not an NLF? If it has no feats of blocking something at the level of quantum manipulation then why should it? The matter erasure point is moot as, as I already mentioned, EE is also protected against in Destiny. Just because she's immune to those in her verse doesn't mean that's the case with other verses. Again, Destiny barriers can do everything the Protective Cirlce can, except the type 2 immortality.

To my knowledge the only potency we have for reality warping and law manipulation is scaling chains of overcoming resistances or just straight up higher-dimensional potency. Some feats of reality warping seem more impressive, but that often just comes down to more range and mroe applications of the reality warping. Anyway it's rewriting reality for the desired effect, shattering reality, ripping through it, etc. So is there any feats of layered reality warping in Blood Sign?

How? There's nothing about that on her profile. The profile doesn't really explain how the 512 forms work. What is her "influence"? Etc. I know there's a lot of things that make her hard to kill, but the profile doesn't explain much about them, so I'm not sure what one could even do to bypass them. Could you explain?

 

[DontTalkDT]

That's a falce equivelance. The difference is that the sword interacts with whatever it is cutting, this does not. If someone can directly attack inside the body of another, without interacting with the outside, higher durability doesn't stop that either.

That argument would suggest that the mechanism of bypassing the barrier is by attacking around it i.e. attacking the inside without travelling through 3D space. In that case, the effect is a matter of teleportation, spatial travel or just spawning an attack inside the barrier. None of these work. You are mistaken if you believe that the protective circle only affects a thin layer. It also affects what's inside.

Besides it works on the barriers of higher tiered characters just fine, so it's obviously not tied to tier.

That is a NLF. Just because one ability of a character works on higher tier things than the rest, it doesn't mean it is hax. You can achieve the same phenomenon with a sharp blade for instance. A blade can reasonably cut at a higher tier than the punch of its owner

Also you still didn't adress the resistance negation. And if you were adressing the resistance negation with NLF and the powernull page, then I disagree. It's not negating the barriers, so the tier doesn't matter whatsoever. It's negating the resistances, including the resistances to durability negating abilities, which would then be able to break through the barrier.

There technically are no resistances, if you wish to be pedantic with abilities. The only "resistances" are part of the barrier (which would be more power null technically), so yes it has to powernull the barrier. Otherwise, the thing it tries to "negate" would be a resistance with Shigara doesn't have. Can negate that. Mind you, the exact same thing that applies to powernull applies to resistances as well. If you can negate the heat resistance of someone that can resist 100 000 °C heat, it is still a NLF that you can negate the heat resistance of something that can resist 1 000 000°C. Power also matter for resistance.

Okay, so the page is outdated and it should in fact be EE? I don't understand what your point is. It seems to be mostly manipulating quantum fields. Now how is that not an NLF? If it has no feats of blocking something at the level of quantum manipulation then why should it? The matter erasure point is moot as, as I already mentioned, EE is also protected against in Destiny. Just because she's immune to those in her verse doesn't mean that's the case with other verses. Again, Destiny barriers can do everything the Protective Cirlce can, except the type 2 immortality.

Have yet to see feats on destiny barriers doing it at the same level of power as the protective circle and those barriers being circumvented.
And what exactly he uses this "manipulating of quantum fields" for is also left to be said.
On the risk of repeating myself: The laws of physics themself can't do anything against a protective circle. You are arguing that something that can't be harmed by physics itself can be harmed by the manipulation of something that is a teeny tiny part of physics? That's like saying that someone that resists elemental manipulation can't resist fire manipulation. The thing you are arguing about is a tiny part of what is included in the larger category of physics.
Heck, if we're talking about physics already, I should point out that Shigara Masami is completely immune to damage caused by regular physics, due to, like all materials, operating based on the supernatural laws of another world instead of physics.

To my knowledge the only potency we have for reality warping and law manipulation is scaling chains of overcoming resistances or just straight up higher-dimensional potency. Some feats of reality warping seem more impressive, but that often just comes down to more range and mroe applications of the reality warping. Anyway it's rewriting reality for the desired effect, shattering reality, ripping through it, etc. So is there any feats of layered reality warping in Blood Sign?

You would be wrong about that. We literally at times give out tiers for reality warping stuff. Like, when someone reality warps galaxies out of existence, we do rank them as "Galaxy level via reality warping". Someone that can only reality warp on the scale of a city is obviously weaker than someone that can do it to an entire galaxy.

How? There's nothing about that on her profile. The profile doesn't really explain how the 512 forms work. What is her "influence"? Etc. I know there's a lot of things that make her hard to kill, but the profile doesn't explain much about them, so I'm not sure what one could even do to bypass them. Could you explain?

There isn't much to say about them beyond what the notable A/T section explains, I believe. The 512 forms are back up existences. If one is destroyed, the next spawns in.
Her influence is exactly what it sounds like: Influence. It isn't energy or some object or whatever. It's influence. It's just the control she has over a certain part of the world. You would need something like law or concept manipulation with multiversal AoE to get rid of it or destroy the universes she has influence over. In canon what was used to overcome it was an ability with the specific effect of gathering and eliminating influence.
As for the negation of resurrection: It is on her profile. In terms of abilities, it falls into power nullification and it is mentioned in the Notable A/T. As for how: She just does. The ability to prevent any means of resurrecting from her attacks is just a passive property she has. We just have examples of the scale at which the prevents resurrection, which is how we can judge the extent.

---

One further question: Is the Warlock a biological or a technological lifeform? His senses in particular. Relates to something I actually forgot to put on Shigara's profile.

Also, one important aspect ignored until now: Shigara has techniques with universal range, meaning by SBA the fight starts with 4km distance between them. Shigara can summon materials that outrange Warlock long before he is even in range to use any abilities on her.