I don't understand this aspect of Reality-Fiction Transcendence...

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The Reality-Fiction Transcendence page says this:

"A character that qualifies would usually then scale to one level of infinity higher than the totality of the cosmology they transcend. So for example, viewing a Low 2-C to 2-A cosmology as fiction would grant Low 1-C, doing so to a 6-Dimensional Low 1-C construct would scale the character to 1-C, doing so to a 10-Dimensional High 1-C structure would be the equivalent of an 11-D High 1-C and so on. However, depending on the details and depictions of the Reality-Fiction Transcendence, it can be more than a simple 'dimensional jump', for example because each reality-fiction "level" having been explained to contain more than one level of infinity (e.g. due to containing large higher-dimensional spaces or similar)."

But why?

Why do we assume that because a character views a Low2-C and 2-A cosmology as fictional, that said character can create or destroy a Low 1-C structure? Why does viewing something as fictional, grant the ability to destroy or affect a higher structure?

Shouldn't the character down scale to 2-A? If you view a 2-A structure as fictional, then you should be able to do whatever you want to that 2-A structure, giving you a tier of 2-A.

What can someone, who views a 2-A structure as fiction, do that someone who is 2-A can't?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I disagree with scaling based on r/f difference entirely, partially for this exact reason. I'll elaborate more after work, but people should only scale if they can create/destroy a space with r/f superiority.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

R > F grant's a state of being, as such all aspects of yourself are greater than that of a lower dimension.

Infinite destruction and creation of Lower Dimensional Structures will do nothing to you, at the same time, any movement of yours will be greater than any movement from a lower dimension, as you generate energy on an additional axis that no infinity of energy a lower dimension can ever measure up even a fraction of.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

R > F grant's a state of being, as such all aspects of yourself are greater than that of a lower dimension.

Infinite destruction and creation of Lower Dimensional Structures will do nothing to you, at the same time, any movement of yours will be greater than any movement from a lower dimension, as you generate energy on an additional axis that no infinity of energy a lower dimension can ever measure up even a fraction of.

Energy and speed is scalar, it's the same in any dimension. And anyways, after High 3-A, we stop basing our tier system in energy. Characters gain tier depending on the structure you can affect.

With Reality-Fiction Transcedence, a character can gain Low 1-C without being shown to be able to affect, destroy, or create an entire Low 1-C structure.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Nvm, I misunderstood the question. I agree it is strange.

 

[Potemkat]

With Reality-Fiction Transcedence, a character can gain Low 1-C without being shown to be able to affect, destroy, or create an entire Low 1-C structure.

Isn't the same true for higher dimensional people though?

 

[Ss3micah]

Pretty sure Ultima Reality answered this question already

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Isn't the same true for higher dimensional people though?

Yes. But I'll let that be another thing.

Pretty sure Ultima Reality answered this question already

Where can I find the answer?

 

[Potemkat]

Yes. But I'll let that be another thing.

If it's the same it's not another thing, no?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

If it's the same it's not another thing, no?

It could potentially cover both cases, but I want to focus on reality-fiction for now because it might clutter things.

 

[Ss3micah]

Where can I find the answer?

Here

His specific quote:
The effect that the Player has on the gameworld doesn't really matter. When it comes to Reality-Fiction Differences, the only requirements that we put in place is that they do, in fact, perceive a lower reality as being fictional. You could have absolutely 0 power to influence a lower reality and still be Low 1-C as long as that one criterion is met.

This is something that is reflected in our current treatment of author characters, even. For example, if you are an entity that sees your entire verse as a book which you can manipulate at will through your writing, then we will assume your Plot Manipulation only works on beings of a lower reality, and that otherwise you have no such power over beings on your level at all. It makes you into a weak Tier 1 (Literally just a regular human in your level of reality), but it doesn't take away your chances of being Tier 1. Making their influence upon the lower world more limited, in turn, doesn't change this scenario at all, it just makes their hax abilities worse.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Here

His specific quote:
The effect that the Player has on the gameworld doesn't really matter. When it comes to Reality-Fiction Differences, the only requirements that we put in place is that they do, in fact, perceive a lower reality as being fictional. You could have absolutely 0 power to influence a lower reality and still be Low 1-C as long as that one criterion is met.

This is something that is reflected in our current treatment of author characters, even. For example, if you are an entity that sees your entire verse as a book which you can manipulate at will through your writing, then we will assume your Plot Manipulation only works on beings of a lower reality, and that otherwise you have no such power over beings on your level at all. It makes you into a weak Tier 1 (Literally just a regular human in your level of reality), but it doesn't take away your chances of being Tier 1. Making their influence upon the lower world more limited, in turn, doesn't change this scenario at all, it just makes their hax abilities worse.

That doesn't answer my question though.

And honestly one of the major problems I am referring to.
Our tier lists says Low 1-C is for beings who can affect, destroy, create an entire Low 1-C structure. A being who can't do that shouldn't have that tier.

 

[deonment]

The Reality-Fiction Transcendence page says this:

"A character that qualifies would usually then scale to one level of infinity higher than the totality of the cosmology they transcend. So for example, viewing a Low 2-C to 2-A cosmology as fiction would grant Low 1-C, doing so to a 6-Dimensional Low 1-C construct would scale the character to 1-C, doing so to a 10-Dimensional High 1-C structure would be the equivalent of an 11-D High 1-C and so on. However, depending on the details and depictions of the Reality-Fiction Transcendence, it can be more than a simple 'dimensional jump', for example because each reality-fiction "level" having been explained to contain more than one level of infinity (e.g. due to containing large higher-dimensional spaces or similar)."

But why?

Why do we assume that because a character views a Low2-C and 2-A cosmology as fictional, that said character can create or destroy a Low 1-C structure? Why does viewing something as fictional, grant the ability to destroy or affect a higher structure?

Shouldn't the character down scale to 2-A? If you view a 2-A structure as fictional, then you should be able to do whatever you want to that 2-A structure, giving you a tier of 2-A.

What can someone, who views a 2-A structure as fiction, do that someone who is 2-A can't?

Due to the nature of R>Fs, seeing a lesser reality as fiction means all of your attributes, by necessity, exceed the capabilities of those within that reality.

Energy and speed is scalar, it's the same in any dimension. And anyways, after High 3-A, we stop basing our tier system in energy. Characters gain tier depending on the structure you can affect.

With Reality-Fiction Transcedence, a character can gain Low 1-C without being shown to be able to affect, destroy, or create an entire Low 1-C structure.

R>Fs grant you the tier via state of being rather than area affected.

That doesn't answer my question though.

And honestly one of the major problems I am referring to.
Our tier lists says Low 1-C is for beings who can affect, destroy, create an entire Low 1-C structure. A being who can't do that shouldn't have that tier.

I mean by that logic, a large number of characters who are tier 1 or 0 would not qualify, as they are not that tier for being able to affect structures of that size, but instead are as such due to their state of being; the tiering system doesn't state they have to affect structures of said size. Instead, it states that they can. There is a difference between the ability to perform an action and having performed said action.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I mean by that logic, a large number of characters who are tier 1 or 0 would not qualify, as they are not that tier for being able to affect structures of that size, but instead are as such due to their state of being;

Then they shouldn't qualify.

the tiering system doesn't state they have to affect structures of said size.

The tier says this:

"Characters or objects that can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal."

A character needs to be able to affect the space that trivializes everything thing below it, not simply be a character that exists in it.

There is a difference between the ability to perform an action and having performed said action.

Except, we are assuming that because a character exists inside a Low 1-C structure that they can affect, destroy, create Low 1-C structures. We don't assume characters that exist in Tier 2 structures, can affect, destroy, create universes because they simply exist there.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I mean

if tier 1/0 characters with r/f difference wouldn't qualify without the "state of being" bullshit, then they shouldn't. Whether or not the standards changing would lead to upgrades or downgrades should be irrelevant if the standards are based on faulty logic.

Also nobody should have HDE through r/f, a 5D being cannot exist on a 5D plane for the same reason 4D klein bottles cannot exist in our 4D universe.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I'm pretty sure it's context dependent

Character can view a multiverse in their mind as fiction this would only scale to their mind and something like this would requires mire context to be anything useful

Cam they affect the multiverse with their mind?

Do they have Immortality or Regeneration dependent on their consciousness?

Is it only a range feat?

Etc etc etc

Or

A character can be in a tower that is in a higher plan that can look down and see the infinite multiverse as something flay amd spread out and the tower allows the user too interact and reshape the various worlds. This one has the context provided to prove its mire than just a state if being

Random examples I made up

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

A character can be in a tower that is in a higher plan that can look down and see the infinite multiverse as something flay amd spread out and the tower allows the user too interact and reshape the various worlds. This one has the context provided to prove its mire than just a state if being

A 2-A being can interact and reshape various worlds just as well though.

 

[Potemkat]

A 2-A being can interact and reshape various worlds just as well though.

Aren't a lot of 2-A beings that tier because they fought other 2-As? They can't interact and reshape worlds but they still are 2-A.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

A 2-A being can interact and reshape various worlds just as well though.

I edited my comment.

They can yes, but the tower is out of range from other 2-A's as its showing a "greater feat."

I believe the wiki does limit hax, and AP to what is shown thus despite having a R/F difference with the multiverse they only should have 2A hax and AP

The tower would only have a few perks such as

Immeasurable speed, and being out if range of your average 2-A character

R/F difference is really only good for smurfing a character out with Immortalitirs, regen, speed, range, hax potency, etc.

If it leads to am AP tier then that's a wiki problem unless context shows other wise

Such as the "Tower" in my example manipulating 5D space

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I edited my comment.

They can yes, but the tower is out of range from other 2-A's as its showing a "greater feat."

I believe the wiki does limit hax, and AP to what is shown thus despite having a R/F difference with the multiverse they only should have 2A hax and AP

The tower would only have a few perks such as

Immeasurable speed, and being out if range of your average 2-A character

R/F difference is really only good for smurfing a character out with Immortalitirs, regen, speed, range, hax potency, etc.

If it leads to am AP tier then that's a wiki problem unless context shows other wise

Such as the "Tower" in my example manipulating 5D space

But my thing is, the 2-A character isn't fighting the tower. They would be fighting the person in the tower. And the "Low 1-C" character can't effect their level on the tower, so why should they get the range or the AP of that level?

Does every character in the lower levels, get the range and AP of the levels they inhabit?

It's like saying I can defeat Master Chief because he's fiction and I'm real, but if we existed in the same reality, Master Chief would walk all over me.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, I don't understand why we can't just assume this is a matter of the location having superiority and not the people within it. A 5D realm is just as capable of having 3D people in it as a 4D realm, as for every higher dimension thereafter. We are, again, 3D beings in a 4D realm, nor do we casually dream up or destroy entire realities, lower dimensional or otherwise, just by virtue of existing. I think it's silly to say that a realm that shows repeated and explicit proof of qualitative superiority over a 4D universe can't be low 1-C just because nobody that lives there has godlike reality warping powers or some shit.

It's a highly fallacious argument that seems like a relic of ye olden days of VS debating that nobody ever really bothered to challenge.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

But my thing is, the 2-A character isn't fighting the tower. They would be fighting the person in the tower. And the "Low 1-C" character can't effect their level on the tower, so why should they get the range or the AP of that level?

Does every character in the lower levels, get the range and AP of the levels they inhabit?

It's like saying I can defeat Master Chief because he's fiction and I'm real, but if we existed in the same reality, Master Chief would walk all over me.

In this case the tower is a tool being used by a person. That person for the sake of my example is just a super genius tier 8-A human who found a way to teleport to the tower with his technology. He stays 3D and 8-A in there

By SBA rules the tower would hr standard equipment for this guy in that key

And R/F difference only makes someone baseline without further context thus pther 5Ds can interact and effect the tower as long as they are also baseline or higher bit since the tower only has feats of reshaping universes in the multiverse. It has only 2-A reality Warping so it hasn't shown any other 5D feats other than "it can get there" and "it cam become bigger than the multiverse by a huge amount."

So really the tower only has a couple 5D haxes maybe immeasurable speed.

I really don't see any way R/F difference can give AP tiering tbh

Edit: that last example seems to me that you are taking R/F way to literally.

That's like DBH stuff where DBH views these other realities as game simulations but it doesn't show it in a way where there's qualitive superiority

 

[Ss3micah]

If you individuals are having a problem with how the Tiering system does things then just create a CTR or more suitably a Staff Discussion thread

You’ll likely be addressed, debunked by staff and the Tiering system will remain the exact same cause the tiering system was talked about and revised recently along with how R>F and the standards are still pretty much the same

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Yeah, I don't understand why we can't just assume this is a matter of the location having superiority and not the people within it. A 5D realm is just as capable of having 3D people in it as a 4D realm, as for every higher dimension thereafter. We are, again, 3D beings in a 4D realm, nor do we casually dream up or destroy entire realities, lower dimensional or otherwise, just by virtue of existing. I think it's silly to say that a realm that shows repeated and explicit proof of qualitative superiority over a 4D universe can't be low 1-C just because nobody that lives there has godlike reality warping powers or some shit.

It's a highly fallacious argument that seems like a relic of ye olden days of VS debating that nobody ever really bothered to challenge.

We don't give characters infinite speed or immeasurable speed for existing in timeless void. Why do we give characters Low 1-C for just existing in Low 1-C structures?

In Dragonball, and other stories, we have the mechanic of hax generally not working on stronger characters. We don't say, that every weaker character's hax won't work on Dragonball characters, instead, hax not working on stronger enemies can be seen as a weakness for that verse.

Why isn't the same for stories where lower dimensional beings can't harm higher dimensional beings? That's a tenant of that story, why are we applying that rule to all fiction? Especially for characters who can't even affect, create, or destroy these higher dimensional structures, but rather just stand around in them.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

If you individuals are having a problem with how the Tiering system does things then just create a CTR or more suitably a Staff Discussion thread

You’ll likely be addressed, debunked by staff and the Tiering system will remain the exact same cause the tiering system was talked about and revised recently along with how R>F and the standards are still pretty much the same

People are just having a discussion on a topic. If we want to pursue, a CTR or a Staff Discussion, we can do that in good time.

 

[Ss3micah]

We don't give characters infinite speed or immeasurable speed for existing in timeless void. Why do we give characters Low 1-C for just existing in Low 1-C structures?

In Dragonball, and other stories, we have the mechanic of hax generally not working on stronger characters. We don't say, that every weaker character's hax won't work on Dragonball characters, instead, hax not working on stronger enemies can be seen as a weakness for that verse.

Why isn't the same for stories where lower dimensional beings can't harm higher dimensional beings? That's a tenant of that story, why are we applying that rule to all fiction? Especially for characters who can't even affect, create, or destroy these higher dimensional structures, but rather just stand around in them.

Simple Answer
Verse Mechanic =/= Innate ability

since your using DBZ as an example I shall do so as well
By your logic all DB characters should have Acausal 1 because as per how time works in dragon ball and made clear by the cell saga, every change in time creates the different timeline. If for example Frieza went back in time and kicked Goku, who would have killed Goku of another timeline but Goku of the main timeline would still be fine

Does that mean we give Goku and every other character Acausal 1? No

Another would be that in Bleach all things have souls even inanimate objects. Does that now mean on VSB we allow Soul Reapers and Soul Crushers to be able to soul crush Inorganic beings lacking souls like robots? No

What you MUST understand is that the Wiki has its standards and verse mechanisms will be disregarded in order to fit those standards

So if an a verse, higher dimensional beings can’t affect lower dimensional beings NOT THROUGH AN INNATE ABILITY but simply because the verse treats it as such (Verse Mechanics) then that will be disregarded in order to maintain the standard

We can’t allow verse mechanisms of EVERY verse to come into play during a debate I otherwise things would start to get unbalanced and it would be seen as providing unfair advantages not attributable to the characters in question at all

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

since your using DBZ as an example I shall do so as well
By your logic all DB characters should have Acausal 1 because as per how time works in dragon ball and made clear by the cell saga, every change in time creates the different timeline. If for example Frieza went back in time and kicked Goku, who would have killed Goku of another timeline but Goku of the main timeline would still be fine

Honestly, I have no problem with that. It should added if that's the case. (but doesn't the existence of the time ring negate this, as Goku Black needed the time ring to remain immune to timeline changes? So the characters are affected by time changes)

Another would be that in Bleach all things have souls even inanimate objects. Does that now mean on VSB we allow Soul Reapers and Soul Crushers to be able to soul crush Inorganic beings lacking souls like robots? No

There is a difference between Bleach characters using soul manipulation on inanimate objects because they have souls in their world, and being able to use soul manipulation on things that don't have souls. There is no reason to allow Bleach characters to soul manipulate soulless things because they soul manipulate inanimate objects with souls.

So if an a verse, higher dimensional beings can’t affect lower dimensional beings NOT THROUGH AN INNATE ABILITY but simply because the verse treats it as such (Verse Mechanics) then that will be disregarded in order to maintain the standard

Okay, so if you think that this should be disregarded, why shouldn't the reverse be disregarded?

We can’t allow verse mechanisms of EVERY verse to come into play during a debate I otherwise things would start to get unbalanced and it would be seen as providing unfair advantages not attributable to the characters in question at all

No, but instead only certain verse mechanics are allowed to come into play.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

But before this goes off on tangents, the main question is why do characters get Low 1-C despite not ever being shown to be able to affect, destroy, create, and entire Low 1-C structure.

 

[Dienomite22]

I don't understand why Low 1-C is the go-to tier for even being r>f over just a low 2-C structure. Like why is Low 1-C the automatic tier and what's the difference between Low 1-C and High 1-B that prevents someone from becoming High 1-B instead of Low 1-C for r>f a low 2-C structure?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I don't understand why Low 1-C is the go-to tier for even being r>f over just a low 2-C structure. Like why is Low 1-C the automatic tier and what's the difference between Low 1-C and High 1-B that prevents someone from becoming High 1-B instead of Low 1-C for r>f a low 2-C structure?

You would need to view at least 8 consecutive layers as fiction, which each layer viewing the one below it as fiction.

 

[Dienomite22]

You would need to view at least 8 consecutive layers as fiction, which each layer viewing the one below it as fiction.

Is that the actual answer? because that feels like an oddly specific number for something dealing with infinities and r>f transcendence lmao

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Is that the actual answer? because that feels like an oddly specific number for something dealing with infinities and r>f transcendence lmao

Yeah, in terms of r>F

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I don't understand why Low 1-C is the go-to tier for even being r>f over just a low 2-C structure. Like why is Low 1-C the automatic tier and what's the difference between Low 1-C and High 1-B that prevents someone from becoming High 1-B instead of Low 1-C for r>f a low 2-C structure?

My bad! it's not 8, it's an infinite amount of layers.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Why do you think someone viewing a structure as fiction (let's say a paper) would not destroy the said paper?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Why do you think someone viewing a structure as fiction (let's say a paper) would not destroy the said paper?

I have no problem with them destroying said paper, I have a problem of them scaling to being able to to affect, create, destroy the entirety of the world they are in because they can destroy said paper.

 

[ImmortalDread]

If they can destroy the said paper, then they should scale of effecting/creating/destroying of this structure that is viewed as paper for the character?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

If they can destroy the said paper, then they should scale of effecting/creating/destroying of this structure that is viewed as paper for the character?

That's what I'm saying!

 

[ImmortalDread]

You are saying they should not scale, however they should scale to the respective tier.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

You are saying they should not scale, however they should scale to the respective tier.

No. Currently, characters who view a structure as fiction, let's say a low 2-C structure, would be granted low 1-C. I am asking why is it this way? and I am saying they should downscale to the structure they view as fiction, Low 2-C.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Because they can affect the whole structure significantly.