I Am Me! Nobody Else!: Roxas vs Mori-Hui

[HST_Master]

Pre KH3 Roxas vs Base Post Power Absorption Hui.

Speed Equalized

Sora's Nobody

Mori's Clone


Non-Existent Physiology is restricted.

 

[HST_Master]

bump

 

[HST_Master]

bump

 

[HST_Master]

Bump

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Ok so.... first problem.

Mori can't hit non-existents.

 

[HST_Master]

......shit.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, that issue can be fixed if we use KHIII Roxas, as he´s no longer a Nobody (Aka, non-existant)

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Except that KH3 Roxas is 3-A and Mori peaks at 4-B.

 

[Bobsican]

Oh yeah, then RIP this match.

 

[Amexim]

Wait, so you need a special trait to slap a Nobody. Grossss. Cool..?

Is that canon? Because I have never heard a statement that affirms that in KH3.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, right at early KHII Master Yen Sid directly states that Nobodies don´t conventionally exist and stuff like that, aka, Nonexistent Physiology.

 

[Amexim]

But that doesn't mean that they can't be hit in their own verse by normal attacks. That seems like us adding stuff to the characters due to our understanding of powers across fiction. You can be written to not exist and still be hit. It's a lore thing it seems. But whatever.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, it was there long before I joined, and I can tell that it falls as such, as, for example, Roxas (When he was no longer a Nobody) without his Keyblade wasn´t able to even touch them to begin with.

 

[Amexim]

But that's not explained to be because they don't exist. It could be because he was essentially a normal being before using the Keyblade or anything. We see characters without the Keyblade able to do damage to them, and they only have that ability to interact with them because they... Interact with them.

The point is, your example presupposes that they can't be interacted with because of the commonalities the power has with things in fiction. Not because of a statement or anything concrete clarifying it. Roxas could have been unable to hit them because they're noodle jackets that just avoid the attacks of a comparatively normal creature. That example isn't explicit proof of what is assumed.

 

[Bobsican]

Dodge? Lol, Roxas was able to hit them, but they just didn´t seem to really be affected at all.

Anyways, please move that to a CRT.

 

[HST_Master]

It wasn't just avoiding attacks. He literally couldn't harm them with his nerf bat. It just went through them. Yen Sid's little blurb from 2 also supports this

Yen Sid: "A spirit that goes on even as its body fades from existence---for you see, Nobodies do not truly exist at all."

 

[Amexim]

I'm not because there's no ability to change on the profile. It would be a discussion about how to interpret the story before anything. Just like you had to clarify how the Heart isn't a combat applicable abstract existence and immortality thing in the Geeko vs Woody thread— and I really don't give a shit about it overall. I was just pointing out something I noticed. No need to be a ****** asshole.

I went back to check, and I guess I misremembered? Maybe I interpreted them dodging a lot because of a lack of a fuzzy affect to signify their intangibility (like you get when you're fighting Org members), and how the Dusk moves around a lot when you hit it. But then, how was he able to fight Vivi, who was a nobody in disguise— well enough for Seifer and his gang to recognize he wasn't himself? I feel like these things need statements. Like the concept Manip for every hit thing. Because if I was correct, we'd be adding a fan theory explanation with reasonable evidence without explicit statements to ground it into its canon— which we tend to do too much as a community to buff verses.

But, again, whatever.

 

[Amexim]

Also, saying "they don't truly exist" doesn't translate to "you can't touch them", because that's not true for Roxas and his Twilight Town gang. It seems to be mostly metaphorical or true in an abstract sense rather than a physical sense— and based on how they don't count as people rather than it physically being the case. And it's debatably wrong considering how we constantly see the discrimination against the Nobody's ability to feel emotions. Even Ansem the Wise corrected his misjudgement about their ability to feel emotions. I don't think that statement is a valuable one. But I also don't care enough to change it. I was just asking for clarification.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, it´s stated that all Nobodies eventually grow hearts if they develop emotions (however, nearly no one in the series is aware of that), which is why Xemnas lied to everyone, so they would keep negating them and thinking they are just an illusion, for the most part at least, which would then turn them into a Somebody if developed normally, thus no more Nonexistent Physiology.

 

[Amexim]

But that's irrelevant because even before Sora and Roxas split in KH3, he still... Was able to do physical stuff with real people. And as you said, they have to actually gain a heart before they "exist". Which Roxas won't have until KH3. Which, again, means that everyone without a Keyblade or non-Final Fantasy characters shouldn't have been able to do so much as shake his hand... The non existent intangibility seems to have no statement and is pretty inconsistent. But that's not to say they don't have it, they just have an abstract nonexistenve that's basically the same thing as nonexistent physiology? Again, nothing really needs to be changed on the profiles, it's just... Weird.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, it seems it´s not "passive", but rather "active", as in, they seem to be able to turn intangible to conventional stuff when they want to.

 

[Amexim]

But that in and of itself requires even more clarification from the verse in the form of a statement, yeah? Like, it sounds like we're trying to rationalize the idea that they are intangible at times and explain how they do it before we can even prove it's consistent and that their brand of NP works that way. Isn't that a Post Hoc rationalization? Like, we're assuming they're able to be actively intangible because we assume they can be intangible at all, and we're trying to explain away why it's not like that all the time— not even making their intangibility definitive?

I say, for the sake of fun and the match, ignore this aspect because, even then, if you're, like, blitzed or caught off guard, you could still be... Hit. Because it's "active"...? At best, anyway.

Edit: It's "begging the question" not a post hoc. My bad.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, this sort of stuff is better discussed in a CRT, any agreements here won´t actually affect the pages in that regard.

Overall, for now let´just assume Roxas has complete Nonexistent Physiology, however, this still turns the match into an stomp.

 

[Amexim]

I mean, there's nothing to affect on the pages. It's just... Interpreting things.

And why assume the thing that will make the match even further a stomp to apply? And, when we say "complete" NP, wouldn't that imply... He can't even be acknowledged on a basic level? I know that's not how it works in KH (which, again, adds to my point about it being abstract)— but if we rely on how it works in KH alone, we're back in "CRT" territory. How is this a stomp aside from it? I know nothing about God of High School besides it staring Goku 2.0.

 

[Bobsican]

I meant complete as in how the idea of it on the thread started.

And well, that´s really the only reason for this being an stomp if taken like this.

 

[Amexim]

Then, like I said, to actually make the fight a thing, someone should restrict that or we can ignore that and actually argue. Abilities like this make threads worthless— if they can't fight each other, it's... Not even a verses battle.

Does anyone know about their AP differences?

 

[Bobsican]

Well, we can leave it at a side, but then the match wouldn´t be possible to add to profiles.

 

[Amexim]

Well, we can't add a stomp anyway, yeah? So why not just actually argue the fight instead?

 

[Bobsican]

Fine by me.

Okay, Roxas scales to this, and he may be getting a tier 2 upgrade later.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Roxas has the AP advantage to begin with, but Mori can amp himself up to High 4-C+ levels.

What does Roxas start with?

 

[Bobsican]

Keyblade swings, as usual.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah, then he gets bodied at close quarters combat.

Does he do anything else? AoE attacks or such?

 

[HST_Master]

Spams light magic and has Elemental Magic. Also his blocking iflicts status affects like burning, freezing or paralysis.

 

[Bobsican]

The only other things he can do are magic (aka, elemental attacks) and combine his normal attacks with blasts of light, which likely still leads to the same result.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The thing is, Mori is a beast at close quarters combat. He rapidly closes gaps in skill and experience over the course of a fight and can easily overwhelm an opponent by berating them with attacks that are hard to block due to his martial art excelling at guard breaks. Dodging away is the only viable option, but this version of Mori has Yeoui, so range isn't an issue for him. To add to that, Mori's attacks do way more damage when performed using martial arts.

If Roxas doesn't have AoE options, I have to hand this to Mori.

That being said, Roxas is not nonexistent here right?

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, he´s not nonexistent here so arguments can be made in the first place.

And the closest he has to AoE options is danmaku.

 

[HST_Master]

Except coming in contact with Roxas while he's guarding would hit him with a Status Effect. And Roxas has light shields that he uses to knock opponents away while staying on the offensive and has planetary range with his magic. Plus Ressurection and Regenerationn.


And I guess not if people really don't want it.

 

[Bobsican]

Also, Ressurection only works once.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Mori doesn't have to touch Roxas with his fists, he can just attack with Yeoui (his staff). Yeoui can extend up to planetary distances, and weighs way more than what Roxas can handle by a long shot.

Freezing and burning aren't going to do much since Mori can withstand being in space and he's not going to touch Roxas twice if it happens to him once. Paralysis will be a problem tho. Does it wear off eventually?

Light shields can be easily overcome by the massive AP gap offered when Mori decides to use Jeahbongchim to amp himself.

Edit: Also forgot to mention that Mori can control a continent wide storm that can repeatedly strke lightning at Roxas.

 

[Bobsican]

Roxas has an extreme resistance to elemental manip then again, so the lightning likely won´t be an issue.

Anyways, teh paralysis wears of after a while, like, a few tens of seconds, also, Roxas blocking also has the potential side effect of tossing the opponent into the air.