I already know I'll regret it but whatever: Limbo vs Kars

[TriforcePower1]

Jorge Joestar Kars with every Stand

Speed equalized

Everything else is SBA

Kars (JORGE JOESTAR):

Limbo:

Inconclusive:


Kars

 

[Paul_Frank]

Kars understands

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Hmm my question is what can Kars do to:

1) Limbo just destroying every stand kars has? I mean limbo flicks and everything including Kars and all his stands don't feel so good.

2) Operator's mind and soul hax

3) Limbo rift stasis.

4) Operator's time travel

5) Operator or Limbo absorbing.

6) Limbo just deconstructing Kars and everything that makes up him (including stands) and sending him to za boi simaris and calls it a day.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Limbo can't affect or see Kars's stands so no. Not to mention Kars is 6-B and Limbo is Low 6-B so Kars has the AP advantage.

Doubt he can mind/soul hax since Kars has 36 other Kars in him as well as infinite ammount of disks.

He resists Time Stop.

He is Acausal.

Doubt he can absorb, but how does it work.

Elaborate?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Oh yeah he can quite easily at that. Void energy punches people's soul out on a daily basis and affects consciousness so, stands ain't escaping. Limbo has a TON of stat amp, dmg boost, stat red and dura negation so no, the tiers not gonna do you much.

Yes he can, his mind hax. Considering like trillions of people get casually affected by void energy's mind hax.

It's not time stop, it's dimensional freezing.

Hmm, ok.

He literally absorbed "the embodiment of energy that exists in a universe of it's own". Not much to "work" here. The Man in The Wall was overpowering Rell, the operator took on the man in the wall and sealed him inside himself.

Deconstructs everything and turns that into information. Said information can either be absorbed by Limbo (like a capture target) or sent to a cephalon dude who will store the data and keep it should it be needed (can also create clones of such data if needed).

 

[Ogbunabali]

Can you give some scans to that. And stat amps are probably just going to make up unquantifiably more powerful at best we can say they would be the same.

Isn't his void energy just puppeteering lifeless vessels like warframes?

What does that even mean?

I honestly have no idea what you just said there.

How does it actually work tho. Like is it a beam or do you need to cut or what ever?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Meh, just check out someone like Nekros who uses energy to punch people's soul out. Void energy mind and soul haxes anyone that comes in contact etc etc. Hmm depends, Stat Amp can boost damage up to the billions. Then again we have durability negation into the equation, so the whole AP difference is null.

Nah, void energy is like the main point of the show. It can be used to manipulate lifeless vessels like the warframes, mind hax people, soul hax, corrupt, absorb, literally every hax ability coming from any Warframe and The Operator, negate resistances and more. Literally all of Limbo's hax (dimensional bfr, dimensional freezing, stat amp), and other warframe's hax (Nekros' soul hax, necromancy, other warframe's teleports, invisibility, antimatter, you name it), is all because of void energy being put to good use.

Well it's just looks like a time stop, but not everything is stopped, not limbo, not limbo's firearms, not allies, other timers and stuff like that. Just that it looks like a time stop so we don't have a better way to put it. It just freezes rift bound enemies, the description never mentions time stop, doesn't work like a time stop, but it looks similar, maybe some advanced form of body puppetry and mind hax (makes people unable to move or think/activate hax).

I said there is no "mechanics" to it. He literally went like "ya brah you've been holding that guy for long enough, imma take over zip" now the guy's absorbed. xD

Hmm the deconstruction than bfr just requires Limbo to look at you i guess (requires a part of a gear that's standard equipment, so it's not really a problem there). The deconstruction then BFR i ugh...he puts out his hand (i guess) and then you begin to get deconstructed and absorbed.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well I took a look at Nekros's abilities and I don't see how that would mean that he could affect or see Stands.

And you really need to provide scans for literally everything you just said.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

1) Stands aren't more abstract than souls so yes they can affect stands.

2) Scans for this point? I don't think i really need to, that's like saying prove genjutsu is made through chakra. I mean it is.That's the only energy that the warframes use.

3) I don't think i can give scans here. Since it'd be proving a negative. But here read up a bit on stasis. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Stasis. You can read up about the in game description, how it works, the fact that time counts down even in stasis. Point is there you can get quite a bit of context on Stasis.

4) Hmm lore point, so you'd have to see the quest gameplay. Here is a description so that you can avoid watching the whole chains of harrow quest for this part:

Though it succeeded for quite some time, both the strain of being stuck in a "Transference Loop", and the growing strength of The Man in The Wall (strongly implied to be a direct result of the Operators unlocking their sealed potential during The War Within) slowly drove Rell insane, with a portion of the Red Veil following suit. Realizing that Rell would continue to suffer no matter what the Tenno did, Palladino, who was serving as Rell's only means of communication with the rest of the Veil, mournfully requested the Tenno to destroy Rell's vessel so that he could finally rest, passing the burden of holding The Man in The Wall at bay to the Operators that once shunned him.

Source Material: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/The_Man_in_The_Wall

5) I could provide scans for this point though, do i really need to? It's already in their profiles:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Limbo#Equipment_and_Gear:

Information Manipulation, Data Manipulation, BFR and Deconstruction via Synthesis Scanners (Synthesis scaners can be used to deconstruct an entity into data and send it to Cephalon Simaris to store it in the form of information), Absorption (Can absorb and capture any entity by deconstructing it into information)

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Also on a side note. Why is Kars' durability "universe level+" when he uses MIHUR? That's cringy af. That can "only" scale to ap, cus it's done through a form of hax, you don't need universal AP to 1 shot Kars xD. Someone should likely clean that up.

 

[Ogbunabali]

1) Except Nekros doesn't have anything soul based. There is an attack called "Soul Punch" but in the description it says it just uses telekinetic force. Not to mention it works on other Warframes and, according to you, are soulless and mindless puppets, meaning that if they didn't have a soul the attack wouldn't affect them, which it clearly does. So either Warframes have souls or the attack is just metaphorical.

2) Yes you do need to provide scans because I'm not just going to believe it does everything you say that it does without any evidence and just your words.

3) I'm not sure what to make of this. It actually sounds like a type of dimension banishment, but Kars can travel across dimensions so I don't think it will work on him.

4) I really don't see what this proves.

5) Again yes you do. Just because it's on their profiles doesn't mean it's correct, especially since there aren't any scans linked to them.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Hmm my question is what can Kars do to:

1) Limbo just destroying every stand kars has? I mean limbo flicks and everything including Kars and all his stands don't feel so good.

2) Operator's mind and soul hax

3) Limbo rift stasis.

4) Operator's time travel

5) Operator or Limbo absorbing.

6) Limbo just deconstructing Kars and everything that makes up him (including stands) and sending him to za boi simaris and calls it a day.

1) Kars physically isn't affected. Maybe his Stands, but Kars and Das Boot are 6-B so AP won't cut it. Plus, Limbo has to be in the rift to have non-physical interaction, and if he goes in, Kars will immediately know what's up and resist rift abilities.

2) Kars resists both to an insane degree, as he has countless minds and more than 30 over souls.

3) Kars has to be in the rift for that to happen, and once he is, he adapts to resist.

4) Kars has time travel via Bites the Dust and is acausal himself.

5) D4CU gets literally infinite other Kars from other universes to replace the base one, or Bites the Dust resets and Kars starts off with prior knowledge of the absorption. Oh, and base Kars resists absorption, so this versions should resist it as well.

6) Deconstructing takes time, and Kars would literally take care of Limbo before then.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

1) The warframes part is just game mechanics. The warframes have been made painfully clear throughout the lore to be souless and mindless metal puppets. They are not alive, nor should they be. Though PvP was introduced into the game and the devs couldn't make Nekros be unusable in PvP just cus they lack souls, so it still works on them. No the attack is not metaphorical, from the fact that the Lotus (which is basically the voice of the creators) says this in the attack description:

A blow so powerful, it turns the enemy's very soul into a deadly projectile, damaging all in its path.

And the fact that soul punch does actually damage other enemies in it's wake. Also the "telekinetic" part was never in the original description only in the wiki fandom description. So as i said yes they can affect souls. We've already been through the point you're trying to get to with other knowledgable members and staff. Yes the warframes can affect souls, void energy allows them to do so.

2) Warframes -> Literally lifeless beings, they possess nothing but a body. They are controled ONLY from the Void Energy they have. Their abilities are dependand on "energy" (in game you need energy to use warframe abilities), and it's supposed not to be Void Energy? Here is more proof:

Energy of a Warframe is used mainly to power abilities and melee channeling. All Warframes have 4 abilities that at base, cost up to 100 energy to cast. Every Warframe has their own energy-pool with varying capacities depending on the types and costs of their various abilities. Source: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Energy_Capacity

3) True, but stasis won't let him swap dimensions. So once he's in the rift he'll stay there.

4) It was context on the absorption. What exactly do you want me to prove? I gave description of the whole scenario of "The Operator just killed Rell and Absorbed/Sealed The Man in The Wall".

5) https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Synthesis_Scanner Here then. Read up.

 

[Paul_Frank]

If he sees limbo go into the rift or is banished he u n d e r s t a n d s

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Also want to add that deconstruction has never canonically worked on non-corporeal entities before, so BtD resets.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

1) Dura neg and stat amp will close the AP gap for kars and Das Boot. Besides just destroying will work wonders. And no, Limbo is non corporeal when in the rift, not he gains NPI when he's there. He has NPI in both cases.

2) 30 souls won't be enough then void energy turns who knows many grenniers instantly to slaves. 30 souls ain't enough. You'd need mind hax resistance on a level aching to Star Wars to resist that.

3) Hmm, Stasis can happen before Kars gets in the rift. And no he's not gonna adapt to anything, not with Stasis around.

5) Resists absorption that absorbed the embodiment of void energy? Nah. Also they can absorb the stands just fine.

6) Not rly. It just needs a scan. Kars is corporeal. And the need never arised, and don't forget everything about a being is deconstructed including their soul (which is non corporeal). Not to mention that Stands are still vulnerable to info manip, cus lol Rohan. Laughs in Heaven's Door. You can't reliably argue that info manip won't work on stands when in verse they have already lost to such a thing. (Rohan also won vs Kars in this wiki so lol)

 

[Ogbunabali]

1) That's great and all but you would need more evidence than a fancy name that's contradictory to feats to prove soul manipulation. A link to the thread where this was discussed would be nice tho.

2) Ok but how does that mind hax Kars?

3) Not really since his Stands can do that for him.

4) There was literally no context nor any mention of any kind of absorption. I read through the whole wiki article there was never any mention of anything like it.

5) And how does this turn Kars into information exactly?

"The Synthesis Scanner is a special device that can be acquired from Cephalon Simaris, and is necessary to conduct Synthesis for his Sanctuary. The device allows the user to see enemies, destructible objects and important objects through walls and obstructions. It is also a range-finding device that can measure the distance from the scanner to the targeted terrain or object."

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Things are now in motion that cannot be undone, the fight of walls of text has begun.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I also want to point out that in the case somehow Kars is killed

D4cU goes and gets a new Kars who now has all the knowledge of the previous one along with his powers

Also I doubt soul punch actually hits the soul

It punches a soul out of warframe, corpus and their machines, and sentients so unless all of them have souls then it's not actually affecting the soul of the target

This is also irrelevant because soul punch is nekros' power not limbo's

Saying they use the same energy so they can do the same thing doesn't work because in fiction you can use the same power source and not have the same powers as another

 

[Firephoenixearl]

1) Not a name. The Canon description. I already gave you the cannon description in bold. I mentioned the fact that Warframe's soul is just game mechanics. The canon description given by the creators and the might as well omniscient when it comes to warframes Lotus. If there is any reason those can be dismissed pls do tell me. I already explained the "contradiction" is not really a contradiction, it's just game mechanics.

2) Same as how every Grennier, Corpus and Infested gets mind haxed. You come in contact with void energy, you get haxed. The Operator decides to transfer void energy into you, he does so and you're now under his complete control. I was just explaining to you the whole point of "i thought void energy was just to control the warframes".

3) Any reason the stands won't be in his same pinch? The stands won't have any easier time acting in the rift than Kars, so no they won't be doing much.

4) "After Rell was destroyed the burden of carrying or sealing (don't remember the word they used) was passed on to the Operator" What do you think that means? But then again you could watch any video of "Chains of Harrow Quest" if you wanna be sure. Here is the thread that discussed this whole point though. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2530084.

5) Once all nodes or body locations have been scanned, the target will dissipate, signifying a successful synthesis.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2736721

Here is the thread. That discussed that too.

 

[TriforcePower1]

There's also time rewind, btw. If Kars gets defeated, time gets rewound and he remembers everything that happens, UNDERSTANDS and resists.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

uh

this has probably been discussed but Limbo has no way around D4CU

 

[Sir_Ovens]

1) When has physical Limbo affected non-corporeals in base?

2) Gonna need scans on that Void energy feat there. Saying anything is near Star Wars level is a bold statement.

3) Yeah no, I've used Limbo and Limbo Prime countless times and I know for a fact that enemies need to be in the Rift for Stasis to work on them.

5) Operatior is not Rell level. Rell has been stated numerous times to be special and more powerful than any other Operator. Only he can contain Man in the Wall.

6) Deconstructing will do away with Kars and maybe like 1 soul. The 2 Stands that don't need Kars' permission to operate will be fine and dandy. Unless you're telling me that someone who has been deconstructed before canonically has more than just 1 soul.

 

[Ogbunabali]

1) A canon description doesn't make in immune to it being flowery language.

2) Again scans.

3) Unless Kars understands or if he can even affect Stands in the first place.

4) This isn't proof of that.

"Though it succeeded for quite some time, both the strain of being stuck in a "Transference Loop", and the growing strength of The Man in The Wall (strongly implied to be a direct result of the Operators unlocking their sealed potential during The War Within) slowly drove Rell insane, with a portion of the Red Veil following suit. Realizing that Rell would continue to suffer no matter what the Tenno did, Palladino, who was serving as Rell's only means of communication with the rest of the Veil, mournfully requested the Tenno to destroy Rell's vessel so that he could finally rest, passing the burden of holding The Man in The Wall at bay to the Operators that once shunned him. "

5) Any reason why this would work on anything other than a "Synthesis Targets".

In the Operator thread you linked you didn't provide evidence of Absorption or Sealing it was just your word for it and it was accepted by that only, so I still doubt it is actual Absorption/Sealing. That aside you said it's not combat applicable so even if it is true it's not an argument.

And in the other thread I don't see where soul stuff was discussed.

And I want to point out the complete rush there was in these threads, and the lack of scans and evidence provided for any of them just your word and nothing else, makes me suspicious of this being a repeat of Get Backers. A lot of the stuff seem incorrect and lacking huge amount of evidence to support these claims.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Sir

1) Scaling from other void energy users who can interact with souls.

2) You do know every corrupted enemy is just a grennier/corpus/infested that's under mind hax right? The grennier alone are the population of several planets, count in corpus and infested. And voila.

3)Stasis can be activated before putting people into the rift, which will make them instantly stop as soon as they enter the rift. That's what i meant.

5) Directly contradicted by the fact that The Operator took TMiTW after rell died in the chains of harrow and sealed him. A feat which made Rell go insane. Rell was the first to contain TMiTW true, though The Operator took over after Rell died.

6) When you're deconstructing an entity you're deconstructing everything that makes up him into information. Why would 1 souls or 2 souls make a difference here? The souls are still part of him, information about his being, without that information he's not "Kars".

 

[Firephoenixearl]

1) You do know GER has will power manip from a literal canon statement without context. Same for MiH inf speed right? Besides just watch ANY video of nekros soul punching and you'll see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnmyx1_E5_M watch the first 33 seconds. You can even see the soul moving after he soul punches.

2) Read on "corrupted enemies", am too tiried.

3) Show me Kars "understanding" when he's completely frozen and can't act or think. Stands read point 1.

4) Then watch the gameplay of the quest. Im tired.

5) If you had carefully read through the whole thread, you'd know we had already dismissed that as game mechanics. Reputation farming would have been too easy and it'd break the meta if you could just go up and 1 shot lvl 9999 dudes by scanning. Synthesis scaners are just "we lack info about these dudes can you get some, don't bother with others cus we already have plently".

 

[Ogbunabali]

1) You see telekinetically attacking enemies yes I agree. Doesn't mean it's attacking the soul when it attacks machines and soulless Warframes.

2) So this working on Kars is a non issue considering he understands and his complete body control.

"The Corrupted are enemies encountered in Orokin Void levels. Corrupted units are actually Corpus, Grineer, and Infested creatures that have been implanted with a control device, allowing the "Neural Sentry" of the Oroki Towers to manipulate them. Most Corrupted appear shining grey and drained of color, save for the golden Orokin control devices on their heads, and their body is "perfected" in a way that mirrors the Orokin aesthetic taste: this is especially evident in Corrupted Grineer units, whose crude armor is replaced by golden, symmetrical plates and bionics. These devices appear similar to the Orokin material on [1] Frost Prime's helmet."

3) He understands with only a glance, the moment he sees is more than enough to understand a simple creature like him. He managed to develop perfect stands, create highly advanced ships, understand heaven with less effort.

4) Or you back up your claims.

5) I did read both threads very carefully, trust me. None of those issues were addressed. And the video that was linked was showed in such a way that it ignores that it only works on a specific type of enemy and only after they are defeated.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

1) Need a scan of Warframes interacting with non-corporeal entities please. Operators don't scale to Warframes themselves. If the Operator can interact with non-corporeals, Limbo can't.

2) Need scans showing Operators can use their Void Energy on the level of literal holes to the void that open and close randomly. Hell, I've never actually seen an Operator use Void Energy to mind hax. If they can it's severely out of character.

3) Kars gets stasis, BtD activates as it requires no action, or Kars adapts to overcome as he has now been introduced to the Rift. Unless you show me scans of people losing consciousness when under stasis.

5) Man in the Wall was free. Operator didn't contain him. If Man in the Wall could cause one of the most powerful Operators to die from exhaustion, why would a regular old Operator be able to contain him if it were not outlier?

6) Bites the Dust is not part of Kars. It doesn't make up Kars as it was literally taken from someone else. As in, someone else's soul. It won't get deconstructed unless targeted specifically. But then again, I'm still iffy on souls being deconstructed as nothing with Warframe's equivalent of a soul has ever been deconstructed. Hell, I don't think souls even exist in Warframe.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I can argue back to those arguments but something happened to me irl and i really don't have the time or calmness to be here sorry.

Feel free to close this for Kars stomping since im gone. Gonna be out for a while. Will see ya when im back.