Hunter x Hunter Overhaul (Scaling)

[UchihaSlayer96]

Happy 3rd Hiatus anniversary!

Our next item on the agenda is relatively simple. Hope you are enjoying your stay so far.

1- Meruem's tier
2- Netero's tier
3- The three royal guards' tier
4- Whether enraged Gon scales to Neferpitou before transformation

Sounds great.

We have like three calcs we need to go through (though we might get 8-B ish supporting feats from First Hand and Meruem smashing the wall of the nest).

• Netero's Zero Hand
• Poor Man's Rose
• Meruem's Rage Blast

Zero Hand​

As mentioned before:
This is a calc from ChaosTheory about Zero Hand with a High 7-C high-end, which DMUA is said to have approved. The high-end appears to use vaporization.
This is an unevaluated calc from LIFE_OF_KING, which gets Low 7-C with vaporization (would get 8-A with pulverization)

The key question is whether Zero Hand vaporizes or pulverized the crater.
Strong evidence for vaporization is that the Zero Hand was said to be 'fired in a flare/light like a dazzling star':

Without a calc we would just upscale to Low 7-C.

Poor Man's Rose​

There is a calc taken from ChaosTheory which yielded 7-B calc with melting. There is a high-end with 7-A.
Cable's Calculations has a Low 7-B calc by using a nuke calculator and scaling the explosion in the flashback with the skyscrapers.

Both are unevaluated.

Meruem's Rage Blast​

There is an accepted Low 7-B calc with violent fragmentation.

I can't really comment on the calcs for the most part, as I have negligible calcing knowledge. But I'd say Vaporization should work for Zero Hand since it's described as a beam of light comprised of Netero's Aura, and was even likened to a star.

---

As pointed by Theendzero13, we can scale Neferpitou to Youpi based on Illumi's statement that Neferpitou was Meruem's top soldier, and a statement from the Yu Yu Hakusho Character guide Shueisha jump remix (which features Hunter x Hunter pages as a bonus) stating that Neferpitou has strength second only to the king.

"Towards Pitou, who held a strength second only to the King... He displayed an even higher power on a completely different league."

Yeah, Pitou being the strongest Royal Guard makes perfect sense to me. I think we're all naturally inclined to believe that anyway due to their portrayal, but these statements you brought forth just solidify their scaling above the other RG.
There's also the fact that they took a tail swipe from Meruem with intent to kill, as LordTracer pointed out, so it's very consistent.

So where do we place Shaiapouf? We can likely put him above base Netero, but does he scale to Youpi? Does him running around instead of fighting count as an anti-feat?

I personally don't see a good reason for Pouf to scale to Youpi, especially not his Rage Blast or transformed state. His lack of feats on Youpi and Pitou's level, his performance against Morel, and his clone getting stomped by Killua just has me very iffy on him scaling to someone who's easily 10x stronger than Killua.
He should still scale above base Pre-Training Netero, and most Hunters due to the statements of Netero standing no chance against the Guard which you mention below. But anything beyond that will need a bit more evidence imo.
So he should be no lower than 8-A+ in the end.

Where do we put Netero's base tier at? It is of note that a single attack from Netero is not enough to have any visible damage on Pitou,

This is true, but he still sent Pitou flying kilometers away, so he should at least downscale from them imo.

and Colt stated that Netero doesn't stand a chance against the Royal Guards judging by his Aura:

This is also true, but this was before he trained if memory serves. So it may not necessarily apply to Post-Training Netero.
In the end, I think base Netero should definitely be above the likes of Morel, Knov, Uvo, and the like. He could also potentially downscale from Pitou Post-Training.
If memory serves, wasn't Pitou extremely excited at the prospect of fighting Zeno and Netero? That could be further support.

Also, as I mentioned in the first page, I would argue that pre-transformation enraged Gon is above base Netero in AP/Durability, but still below the Pitou.

Sorry, but could you remind me why this was the case? Is it because Pitou perceived him as a threat? I'm pretty sure they perceived Netero as one as well, but correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't read/watched the series in a while (which I plan to rectify relatively soon).

But yeah, good job on getting this thread rolling again.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Before giving input on this whole thing, was speed discussed already?

 

[Theendzero13]

Before giving input on this whole thing, was speed discussed already?

Don't think so, we are trying to evaluate the god tier calcs first

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Don't think so, we are trying to evaluate the god tier calcs first

I see. I will focus on AP, then.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Zero Hand​

As mentioned before:
This is a calc from ChaosTheory about Zero Hand with a High 7-C high-end, which DMUA is said to have approved. The high-end appears to use vaporization.
This is an unevaluated calc from LIFE_OF_KING, which gets Low 7-C with vaporization (would get 8-A with pulverization)

The key question is whether Zero Hand vaporizes or pulverized the crater.
Strong evidence for vaporization is that the Zero Hand was said to be 'fired in a flare/light like a dazzling star':

Without a calc we would just upscale to Low 7-C.

The key difference, other than the vaporization/pulverization argument, is Meruem's Height in both calculations. Meruem is 2m tall in Chaos' calc, while being 1.69m in LIFE's.

Thing is, LIFE linked an unofficial source for Meruem's height, while Chaos did a two-step scaling to find that height based off this panel (Meruem tall af btw)

I'd go with ChaosTheory's calc.

The pulverization vs vaporization argument. It has vapor (it has the japanese kanji for "shhh" I think), and nearly no visible leftovers, so I don't see a reason for Pulverization.

Poor Man's Rose​

There is a calc taken from ChaosTheory which yielded 7-B calc with melting. There is a high-end with 7-A.
Cable's Calculations has a Low 7-B calc by using a nuke calculator and scaling the explosion in the flashback with the skyscrapers.

Both are unevaluated.

Both seem far fetched. Cable uses scaling from another explosion, and we don't know if the explosion was completely expanded.
Chaos' don't list why the hill is as tall as it is, so we have to use an average, and then replace the values with his pxscaling.

Meruem's Rage Blast​

There is an accepted Low 7-B calc with violent fragmentation.

---

This one is... extremely downplayed.

We can use the one that use melting or vaporization. Melting is 7-B, Vaporization is 7-A, here too

As pointed by Theendzero13, we can scale Neferpitou to Youpi based on Illumi's statement that Neferpitou was Meruem's top soldier, and a statement from the Yu Yu Hakusho Character guide Shueisha jump remix (which features Hunter x Hunter pages as a bonus) stating that Neferpitou has strength second only to the king.

"Towards Pitou, who held a strength second only to the King... He displayed an even higher power on a completely different league."

So where do we place Shaiapouf? We can likely put him above base Netero, but does he scale to Youpi? Does him running around instead of fighting count as an anti-feat?

Where do we put Netero's base tier at? It is of note that a single attack from Netero is not enough to have any visible damage on Pitou, and Colt stated that Netero doesn't stand a chance against the Royal Guards judging by his Aura:

Also, as I mentioned in the first page, I would argue that pre-transformation enraged Gon is above base Netero in AP/Durability, but still below the Pitou.

I agree with Pitou > Youpi > Shaiapouf > Base Netero.

I see literally zero reasons for why Enraged Gon would be able Base Netero though. Because he was a threat to a Pitou using Ten?

 

[Theendzero13]

The key difference, other than the vaporization/pulverization argument, is Meruem's Height in both calculations. Meruem is 2m tall in Chaos' calc, while being 1.69m in LIFE's.

Thing is, LIFE linked an unofficial source for Meruem's height, while Chaos did a two-step scaling to find that height based off this panel (Meruem tall af btw)

I'd go with ChaosTheory's calc.

The pulverization vs vaporization argument. It has vapor (it has the japanese kanji for "shhh" I think), and nearly no visible leftovers, so I don't see a reason for Pulverization.

Both seem far fetched. Cable uses scaling from another explosion, and we don't know if the explosion was completely expanded.
Chaos' don't list why the hill is as tall as it is, so we have to use an average, and then replace the values with his pxscaling.

This one is... extremely downplayed.

We can use the one that use melting or vaporization. Melting is 7-B, Vaporization is 7-A, here too

I agree with Pitou > Youpi > Shaiapouf > Base Netero.

I see literally zero reasons for why Enraged Gon would be able Base Netero though. Because he was a threat to a Pitou using Ten?

I agree that zero hand is clear vapo
For the hill calc he got:
Pros for vapo:
-a lot of vapor onomatopeia and all
Cons for vap:
-debris

Do we have a good look of the plateu after the explosion? That may change things

Enraged gon is avove netero because he scared pitou while netero only made it excited, and did not make pitou nearly as worried for the king as gon did

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Thing is, LIFE linked an unofficial source for Meruem's height, while Chaos did a two-step scaling to find that height based off this panel (Meruem tall af btw

I can edit

 

[GodlyCharmander]

For the hill calc he got:
Pros for vapo:
-a lot of vapor onomatopeia and all
Cons for vap:
-debris

Do we have a good look of the plateu after the explosion? That may change things

I will have a look into it.
But the cons seem to be a little nitpicky, as the area of the attack didn't cover the entire plateau, so obviously the shockwave from the explosion would fragment the remaining rock to some extent.

Enraged gon is above netero because he scared pitou while netero only made it excited

Uhm, context is really important. Pitou was healing Komugi, and defenseless when Gon showed up. Both are not comparable scenarios, as Pitou was stated to be able to slit Gon's throat. Pitou's opinions on Gon shouldn't really matter, as their opition was based on fear on Komugi's behalf.

And did not make pitou nearly as worried for the king as gon did

Uhhh... Pitou's worry came from Gon's potential (Adult Gon), while Pitou's worry about Netero were about his immediate threat.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I can edit

Sure thing. You should scale Killua (who has an official height) to Ant Palm, then scale her to Meruem. You can find panels to do so around chapter 300. I can help you if you want.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

That's a lot of pixelscale. Isn't it easier to simply use the height of a normal Japanese? Scenes in the manga are usually incomsistent, in the end you'll have several height variations

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That's a lot of pixelscale. Isn't it easier to simply use the height of a normal Japanese? Scenes in the manga are usually incomsistent, in the end you'll have several height variations

That's like... two steps. And I don't think so, Palm is considerably tall, and is usually portrayed as far taller than Killua's 1,58m. You can use the Anime for this if you want to, as it's more consistent.

EDIT: There's also the fact Palm isn't human anymore.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

That's like... two steps.

1- Palm's height
2- Meriem's height
3- Diameter of a pillar
4- Diameter of the crater

But anyway, I'll try

 

[GodlyCharmander]

1- Palm's height
2- Meriem's height
3- Diameter of a pillar
4- Diameter of the crater

But anyway, I'll try

It seems acceptable to me, tbh. It's one step more than an assumed height for Palm. Anyway, I will leave this up to you.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Uhm, context is really important. Pitou was healing Komugi, and defenseless when Gon showed up. Both are not comparable scenarios, as Pitou was stated to be able to slit Gon's throat. Pitou's opinions on Gon shouldn't really matter, as their opition was based on fear on Komugi's behalf.

Uhhh... Pitou's worry came from Gon's potential (Adult Gon), while Pitou's worry about Netero were about his immediate threat.

I agree with Charmander regarding this whole Gon vs Netero discussion.

 

[LordTracer]

I agree with them as well.

 

[Cauann2K]

Will Pitou scale higher than a "base" Youpi? If so, I think it makes sense, but for an angry Youpi I don't see it

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Will Pitou scale higher than a "base" Youpi? If so, I think it makes sense, but for an angry Youpi I don't see it

Pitou scales above any Youpi, as they're literally stated as the strongest only after the King.

 

[Cauann2K]

Hmm, don't see it clearly, but I don't have a big problem with that, so I think it makes some sense

 

[Hk1488]

The key difference, other than the vaporization/pulverization argument, is Meruem's Height in both calculations. Meruem is 2m tall in Chaos' calc, while being 1.69m in LIFE's.

Thing is, LIFE linked an unofficial source for Meruem's height, while Chaos did a two-step scaling to find that height based off this panel (Meruem tall af btw)

I'd go with ChaosTheory's calc.

The pulverization vs vaporization argument. It has vapor (it has the japanese kanji for "shhh" I think), and nearly no visible leftovers, so I don't see a reason for Pulverization.

Both seem far fetched. Cable uses scaling from another explosion, and we don't know if the explosion was completely expanded.
Chaos' don't list why the hill is as tall as it is, so we have to use an average, and then replace the values with his pxscaling.

This one is... extremely downplayed.

We can use the one that use melting or vaporization. Melting is 7-B, Vaporization is 7-A, here too

I agree with Pitou > Youpi > Shaiapouf > Base Netero.

I see literally zero reasons for why Enraged Gon would be able Base Netero though. Because he was a threat to a Pitou using Ten?

I don't agree with meruems size being 2m. Sizes are very inconsistent. Meruem is fairly large tho maybe 1.8m but 2m?
I agree on the rose bomb that using another bomb is far fetched(it's nkt even actually using radius so it's wank at best) and I'd like to know how the other one got hill size
I agree with vaporization on meruem(cause it clearly is, vaporization is so easily accepted on some other calcs so why not if it's clearly vapor) but would suggest using lower sizes

 

[Hk1488]

Pitou scales above any Youpi, as they're literally stated as the strongest only after the King.

I don't agree that pitou is above the rage blast. While she is his top soldier she doesn't have the ability youpi does. Like comparing oranges to apples.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't agree that pitou is above the rage blast. While she is his top soldier she doesn't have the ability youpi does. Like comparing oranges to apples.

Pitou is more powerful, her aura has more power behind it than Youpi does. Youpi might have Destruction Capacity, but Pitou still scales above through Attack Potency. I'm not trying to compare the blast to Pitou's aura, I'm comparing energy level vs energy level.

HxH has a system of energy output set in stone, and if the guide states she is stronger than everyone else, then that should mean her attacks carry more Nen than Youpi's.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't agree with meruems size being 2m. Sizes are very inconsistent. Meruem is fairly large tho maybe 1.8m but 2m?

Huh, again, the Anime has a very consistent artstyle, so it can probably be used.

 

[Hk1488]

Huh, again, the Anime has a very consistent artstyle, so it can probably be used.

I still don't see 2m. You calcing the diameter of the crater by scaling palms size of killua, meruems by comparing to palm, the pillar in comparison to meruem and the pillar in comparison to the crater. If we just have a little inconsistency in all of them than that would still be huge

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I still don't see 2m. You calcing the diameter of the crater by scaling palms size of killua, meruems by comparing to palm, the pillar in comparison to meruem and the pillar in comparison to the crater. If we just have a little inconsistency in all of them than that would still be huge

Killua - Palm > Palm - Meruem > Meruem - Pillar > Pillar - Diameter

Anime might give off different heights for Meruem and Palm, but we have to find his height somehow. Assuming is far more inaccurate than actually scaling them.

 

[Hk1488]

Killua - Palm > Palm - Meruem > Meruem - Pillar > Pillar - Diameter

Anime might give off different heights for Meruem and Palm, but we have to find his height somehow. Assuming is far more inaccurate than actually scaling them.

I don't think so. I always think that between two logical options you should take the low end. Same for two illogical options. You have two extra steps when scaling of palm

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Isn’t Palm’s height too inconsistent to use? Killua either reaches her shoulder in some shots or stops at her stomach in others.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I can find Meruem's height using the bed size if 2.1 is not consistent

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I guess that could work. How would you determine its size though?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I can use the 1.9 meter diameter for the bed

It is much simpler to be honest

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I can find Meruem's height using the bed size if 2.1 is not consistent

That works. It does avoid using the canon height, but it seems everyone is against it. Either way, you can use this to see the average size of beds.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Isn’t Palm’s height too inconsistent to use? Killua either reaches her shoulder in some shots or stops at her stomach in others.

I mean, is it in the Anime?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Interestingly enough, in the chapter that introduces Meruem, he had less height than Pitou's shoulder, but later on he was drawn as tall or slightly taller than Palm.

So height consistency is an issue.
Apparently the official heights from the databook themselves are inconsistent. For example if Killua was 5′2″ and Leorio was 6′4″, then Killua should be about as tall as Leorio's shoulder.

There is a fan attempt at creating a more manga/anime accurate height chart:

2. For the rose bomb calc I would like to get more detail. I tried calcing the bomb using the measurement he gave and got like 10 times lower result. And maybe want to know how he got the sizes. I am not really ok with the second calc cause he isn't using the radius he is supposed to take for the formula

The first image shown in the blog isn't actually the one used for scaling. This is the panel ChaosTheory used for scaling in his calc:

Though ChaosTheory calculated to hills to be around 100 m based on an other calc, but the blog uses different numbers for the crater that suggests the hills are 66 m. Weird.

The hill height to crater diameter ratio of 9.6x is very consistent in this page as well.

Not sure what is the problem is in the second calc. If you are talking about the fireball height being used for the radius then this isn't an issue, as ground explosions are typically hemispherical, so the height should give us the radius.

3. I am not ok with violent frag in the calc. There is clearly vapor. I suggest using vaporization but the sizes are way to high using size inconsistencies. I suggest maybe lowering the hill height to something that makes more sense like 100 meters instead of 330.

This one is... extremely downplayed.

We can use the one that use melting or vaporization. Melting is 7-B, Vaporization is 7-A, here too

Personally I wouldn't go higher than pulverization as there are fragments.

Youpi's Rage Blasts was downgrade from vaporization to pulverization due to debris.

The hill height was calculated from the diameter of the blast, so it isn't based on assumptions to lower it for a lower assumption.

This is also true, but this was before he trained if memory serves. So it may not necessarily apply to Post-Training Netero.
In the end, I think base Netero should definitely be above the likes of Morel, Knov, Uvo, and the like. He could also potentially downscale from Pitou Post-Training.
If memory serves, wasn't Pitou extremely excited at the prospect of fighting Zeno and Netero? That could be further support.

True, so enraged Gon would scale above pre-training Netero then, since his Aura overwhelmed Morel who just felt like being stabbed by needles against pre-training Netero's Aura. With Killua commenting that enraged Gon's Aura being more powerful.
Netero before his training said that he is comparable to Morel and Knov, but Knov says that Netero is just trying to be modest and that he is still much stronger than them:

Both seem far fetched. Cable uses scaling from another explosion, and we don't know if the explosion was completely expanded.
Chaos' don't list why the hill is as tall as it is, so we have to use an average, and then replace the values with his pxscaling.

The explosion is from exposition about the bomb Netero used. Not being completed expanded doesn't exaggerate the result, so it is still acceptable. Don't see how it is far-fetched.

Chaos got the height of the hill from an other calc of his using two methods. Not sure which panels he chose since the pictures are no longer there, but it seems that both of them rely on scaling the Ninety-Ninth Hand hole Netero made with the hills. The hole's diameter is calculated by comparing (2 meter tall) Meruem to a pillar.
In the first method he seems to be using the panel where Poor Man's Rose begins exploding:

In the second method, he seems to be using this panel:

Imo, this panel would be more reliable:

I see literally zero reasons for why Enraged Gon would be able Base Netero though. Because he was a threat to a Pitou using Ten?

More powerful Aura than pre-training Netero:

Killua also comments that enraged Gon's Aura is significantly more powerful then before:

Note that I agree that Pitou is still more powerful than this Gon.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Personally I wouldn't go higher than pulverization as there are fragments.

These fragments are so irrelevant that I don't see why they would affect anything, they could have been caused by the eventual destruction

I also remember that it is accepted vaporization in Naruto even when there are several fragments left after a crater

 

[Theendzero13]

I also remember that it is accepted vaporization in Naruto even when there are several fragments left after a crater

Aren't those accepted because of vaporization statements?

 

[Theendzero13]

Is anyone against 50% vapo and 50% pulve
As a mid end?

 

[Hk1488]

Interestingly enough, in the chapter that introduces Meruem, he had less height than Pitou's shoulder, but later on he was drawn as tall or slightly taller than Palm.

So height consistency is an issue.
Apparently the official heights from the databook themselves are inconsistent. For example if Killua was 5′2″ and Leorio was 6′4″, then Killua should be about as tall as Leorio's shoulder.

There is a fan attempt at creating a more manga/anime accurate height chart:



The first image shown in the blog isn't actually the one used for scaling. This is the panel ChaosTheory used for scaling in his calc:

Though ChaosTheory calculated to hills to be around 100 m based on an other calc, but the blog uses different numbers for the crater that suggests the hills are 66 m. Weird.

The hill height to crater diameter ratio of 9.6x is very consistent in this page as well.

Not sure what is the problem is in the second calc. If you are talking about the fireball height being used for the radius then this isn't an issue, as ground explosions are typically hemispherical, so the height should give us the radius.



Personally I wouldn't go higher than pulverization as there are fragments.

Youpi's Rage Blasts was downgrade from vaporization to pulverization due to debris.


True, so enraged Gon would scale above pre-training Netero then, since his Aura overwhelmed Morel who just felt like being stabbed by needles against pre-training Netero's Aura. With Killua commenting that enraged Gon's Aura being more powerful.
Netero before his training said that he is comparable to Morel and Knov, but Knov says that Netero is just trying to be modest and that he is still much stronger than them:

The explosion is from exposition about the bomb Netero used. Not being completed expanded doesn't exaggerate the result, so it is still acceptable. Don't see how it is far-fetched.

Chaos got the height of the hill from an other calc of his using two methods. Not sure which panels he chose since the pictures are no longer there, but it seems that both of them rely on scaling the Ninety-Ninth Hand hole Netero made with the hills. The hole's diameter is calculated by comparing (2 meter tall) Meruem to a pillar.
In the first method he seems to be using the panel where Poor Man's Rose begins exploding:

In the second method, he seems to be using this panel:

Imo, this panel would be more reliable:

More powerful Aura than pre-training Netero:

Killua also comments that enraged Gon's Aura is significantly more powerful then before:

Note that I agree that Pitou is still more powerful than this Gon.

I know what panel he used. I don't think we know for a fact this exactly hill is of the same size as the one he calced. Also the way he calced the hill size is wank in my opinion. 100 meters is way too much for that hill just a bit taller than netero's nen ability. And the second calc is wank cause it uses height. The radius is clearly lower than the height so why not just use the radius?
Why can't meruems explosion use vaporization when there are debris? It doesn't contradict the amount of vapor and it only makes sense for me that an explosion blows some rocks away.
The panels you have shown do not state his nen is more powerful than pre Training netero's.

 

[Hk1488]

Is anyone against 50% vapo and 50% pulve
As a mid end?

Nope

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I mean, is it in the Anime?

I’m talking about the manga

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Is anyone against 50% vapo and 50% pulve
As a mid end?

I’m not