Hunter vs Shalltear Bloodfallen

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

We don't know if it's magical or not. It's not physical. We can't just ignore the resistance because it's not magical or physical because it will just be ignorance. Like let's say character A can resist mindhax with unknown origin. Then character B uses magic to mindhax. Do you just ignore the resistance? I think not.

This. You can't just ignore the resistance just because it isn't something metaphysical and stuff. It's unknown, so it should work on every category because again, it's not proven to any category whatsoever. Who knows if that's physical or magical? Metaphysical or anything else?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It isn't stated to be metaphysical, but it affects a purely metaphysical aspect of an enemy, their intelligence. In no way does it interact with you physically aside from the fact that it triggers upon you being hit.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[OpMasada]

Aren't you that person who always makes threads that die?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Huh? What do you mean? 0.0

 

[Akreious]

We don't know if it's magical or not. It's not physical. We can't just ignore the resistance because it's not magical or physical because it will just be ignorance. Like let's say character A can resist mindhax with unknown origin. Then character B uses magic to mindhax. Do you just ignore the resistance? I think not.

This. You can't just ignore the resistance just because it isn't something metaphysical and stuff. It's unknown, so it should work on every category because again, it's not proven to any category whatsoever. Who knows if that's physical or magical? Metaphysical or anything else?

That's not how it works Rein.

If someone has an "Unproven" mind resistance, they don't resist EVERYTHING. If you resist physical mind manipulation with chemicals, you're not resisting magical Mind Manipulation. Two COMPLETELY different things. No, it shouldn't work on every category because that's a literal NLF. Physical Mind Manipulation =/= Magical Mind manipulation.

If I can resist and block magic from affecting my mind, that isn't going to stop someone drugging my brain up and making me go high.

Just because something is ambiguous doesn't mean we should grant them EVERY form of the resistance just because "Muh we don't know".

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Like I said. Dragon Element specifically works on metaphysical aspects of the mind. Moving on.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Current vote btw? Also BUMP!!

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Hunter: 4

Shalltear: 5

Incon: 0

As of my counting. Arrogant Schmuck was the last vote. It is nearly tied.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I want to vote, but tl;dr. Might do it later

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If it helps I can try to post the long and short of both arguments.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

It really would help if you did that.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

That's not how it works Rein.

If someone has an "Unproven" mind resistance, they don't resist EVERYTHING. If you resist physical mind manipulation with chemicals, you're not resisting magical Mind Manipulation. Two COMPLETELY different things. No, it shouldn't work on every category because that's a literal NLF. Physical Mind Manipulation =/= Magical Mind manipulation.

If I can resist and block magic from affecting my mind, that isn't going to stop someone drugging my brain up and making me go high.

Just because something is ambiguous doesn't mean we should grant them EVERY form of the resistance just because "Muh we don't know".

The problem is, we don't know what the actual **** it is. We don't have an evidence that's for sure, neither magical nor physical. We don't say "this is chakra" and "this is ambient energy" to the thread, because it won't work that way. It's neither, so it's..... what? We just ignore the resistance? Because ignoring it just because it has unknown origin is just pure ignorance.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Shalltear:

+ Can target internal organs and absolutely surpasses Hunter's regen

+ Certainly more intelligent and a better tactician if she puts her mind to it

+ Time hax means she can reset damage for herself, potentially meaning an elongated fight

+ Time hax can be used to get a speed amp

+ Range advantage

+ Teleportation equates to a sizable mobility advantage

+ Duplication could be a big issue if allowed to get out of control

Hunter:

+ Can nullify resurrection, as seen with Vaal Hazak's necromancy. Power null affects pretty much any ability encountered in Monster Hunter to some degree, meaning many of her abilities are off the table

+ Does much higher damage versus foes with higher intelligence, meaning as a pretty smart being Shalltear is tanking a fair amount more damage

+ Resists a lot of things such as supernatural mind hax (via Fatalis and Dragon Element)

+ Being able to hit souls means Astral Projection is null and can surpass durability

+ Can explicitly negate regen via Fatalis Sickle

+ Jerky negates internal bleeding (somehow), countering the internal organ thing

+ Being in-character means Shalltear might do something that would mess her up, like attempt mind manip. Also means she is easily fooled.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Welp, the hunter seems to have the advantage.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So,voting Hunter?

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Also Hunter always uses his summons, mainly Grimalkynes, which sometimes summon more Grimalkynes, mainly Gajalakas. Divine Blessing and Instinct certainly helps too because of the damage reduction.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Less notable advantages but noted boyo.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So,voting Hunter?

Yes

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Counted,now only two vote left.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Nah. 2 to reach 7, but with 5 opposing votes that's still not a victory or even Grace Period.

 

[Jugger47]

I vote shalltear

I read the arugements for hunter having resistance but I really don't agree at all...due to the reasons Akreious already brought up

Shalltear wins via charm.

Reinhardthrowhisspear's reasons for Hunter having mindhax resist is pure NLF at its finest imo.

 

[Zoorooz117]

I vote Shalltear, considering she has an advantage in mobility, range, stamina, and number.

She can summon Einherjar to fight CQC against The Hunter while the real one support in the mid-air.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I vote shalltear
I read the arugements for hunter having resistance but I really don't agree at all...due to the reasons Akreious already brought up

Shalltear wins via charm.

Reinhardthrowhisspear's reasons for Hunter having mindhax resist is pure NLF at its finest imo.

And my reasons? The fact that Hunter resists attacks to a metaphysical aspect of their consciousness is undeniable. So this boils down to ignoring a hefty aspect of Hunter's resistance.

 

[OpMasada]

Haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but your vote is unable to be counted if whatever fact bambu said invalidates your reasons.

 

[Jugger47]

Haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but your vote is unable to be counted if whatever fact bambu said invalidates your reasons.

His claim is pure NLF.

Shalltear mind controls through magic, unless you are able to prove to me that the hunter has resistance to mindhax from magic, by just assuming so because the hunter can resist mindhax from somethings more metaphysics/chemical based, is just NLF.

Part of the what opposition has even straight up admitted is that they don't even know how the mindhax in the verse works.

Whatever the case, I highly doubt its against magic, and either case nobody has proved it.

The burden of proof lies on the people who are making the claim that the hunter can resist mind control from magic. Not the other way around.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but your vote is unable to be counted if whatever fact bambu said invalidates your reasons.

His claim is pure NLF.
Shalltear mind controls through magic, unless you are able to prove to me that the hunter has resistance to mindhax from magic, by just assuming so because the hunter can resist mindhax from somethings more metaphysics/chemical based, is just NLF.

My claim isn't NLF. My claim is that 1. Hunter does resist metaphyisical mindhax, which is what we said was the requirement earlier and 2. You guys keep changing what Shalltear opens with to make it more likely for them to win. It is also notable that Hunter can null Fatalis' mindhax brought up earlier in the thread.

 

[Jugger47]

My claim isn't NLF. My claim is that 1. Hunter does resist metaphyisical mindhax, which is what we said was the requirement earlier and 2. You guys keep changing what Shalltear opens with to make it more likely for them to win. It is also notable that Hunter can null Fatalis' mindhax brought up earlier in the thread.

First off all I just arrived and have never stated what I thought Shalltear opens up with. So "you guys" doesn't include me.

Are you saying something like Charles Xavier manipulating peoples minds is the same as Illusion magic?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Magic

Shalltears mind manipulation is through magic so falls under illusion magic, atleast according to this site.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alright, fair enough. But if she doesn't open with it, it doesn't really matter. Hunter negs it via Elderseal.

No, but we're not talking about illusions. If you mean if someone was changing the perception of another character psychically, then yes.

It isn't under illusion magic. Illusion magic specifically refers to using illusions to alter the mind, as in, make it so Character A perceives something that might not be real due to Character B. See "All other types of magic".

 

[Jugger47]

No, but we're not talking about illusions. If you mean if someone was changing the perception of another character psychically, then yes.

What are you trying to say Shalltear manipulates minds through then?

You didn't answer my question, it was genuine. Are you saying its something like Charles Xavier controlling peoples minds?

Like what do you think it is catorgorized as then?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Magic. Mindhax is not implicitly illusions, though it absolutely can be.

And no. Charles mind controlling someone is not an illusion, just a change in control, so to speak.

 

[Jugger47]

Magic. Mindhax is not implicitly illusions, though it absolutely can be.

So If I find scans that say something like mind control in Overlord is specifically illusion magic then will that be enough for you?

For the record I'm not saying I know there is any such thing, just a question, and I will attempt to go through the novels again.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I suppose but if Shalltear doesn't open with it immediately, it doesn't matter much, since Hunter does very much open with power null. And currently I'm getting different answers.

But yeah, feel free.

 

[OpMasada]

I don't see what the connection of mind manip and illusion magic has to do with this debate, but no, Shalltear has never used mind hax other than two scenarios:

1: During vol 3, she was chasing a girl, however, she only used Charm to gain information from her as she held an item that belonged to Ainz.

2uring vol 11, she was again, only using charm to gather information under the orders of Ainz.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Then my vote remains for Hunter.

 

[OpMasada]

It seems to be fact that some people have voted on the basis that shalltear mindhaxes (which she doesn't), so their vote should get nulled.

Specifically - Akreious and Jugger

@Zoo

This is in character battle, she doesn't do that in-character, her Einherjar is a trump card and even in the battle with Ainz she used it very late in the battle, being more cautious shouldn't change that. Hunter's profile also states that she can fly, and is also capable of apparently propelling herself to shalltear.

Their profile also says they can fire blasts via weapon.

 

[Jugger47]

I put in a CRT for Shalltears spell range. There seems to be a pretty massive difference in what her spell range should be. Which is comparable to Ainz spell range which is tens of kilometers.

Her current spell range is only several hundreds of meters. To put that into perspective people commonly say Ainz spell range is between 60-90KM. Either way that is already well over several hundereds of meters.

Several hundereds of meters wouldn't even give her a single kilometer which is just not true.

I think Shalltears already superior range gives her a distinct advantage, but this would that much more great.

 

[OpMasada]

>Ainz's spell range

Do you mean their spell range for all spells? Or are you trying to use the range of teleportation to amp the distance of other spells?