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Since when does Mind Manipulation from Magic become better then physical Mind manipulation?
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Hunter vs Shalltear Bloodfallen
- Thread starter Kisaragi_Megumi
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No we haven't.
No matter the effect of how Mind Manipulation works or is achieved the potency is what matters
Unless you want to tell me Shalltear's Mind Manipulation is better then Darth Bane and Ragyō Kiryüi
No matter the effect of how Mind Manipulation works or is achieved the potency is what matters
Unless you want to tell me Shalltear's Mind Manipulation is better then Darth Bane and Ragyō Kiryüi
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Ragyo literally involves threads changing how a person's physique works in their body so either me watching KLK a dozen times means nothing or that's wrong
Darth Bane also effects the bones of a person's body into making their bones literally lost control
How are they not physical again?
Darth Bane also effects the bones of a person's body into making their bones literally lost control
How are they not physical again?
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Wait NVM, thought you were talking about someone else. You're not wrong, but it's a bit more complex then that. It's less that one is inherently superior, and more that it's not as all encompassing. For example, if you only have feats of resisting medicinal based Mind Hax like some, it may not work on telepathic. At least, that's what I've gathered.
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But Hunter does resist supernatural, let's call it, mind hax. Dragon Element does directly affect the mind. And I've been told two different stories on what Shalltear opens with here.
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"But Hunter does resist supernatural, let's call it, mind hax. Dragon Element does directly affect the mind. And I've been told two different stories on what Shalltear opens with here."
Nowhere is it stated that the Dragon Element is supernatural. In fact, it's directly related to a Miasma that's described in a way that it's highly likely it's more of a physical thing rather than any supernatural or magical ways.
"No we haven't.
No matter the effect of how Mind Manipulation works or is achieved the potency is what matters
Unless you want to tell me Shalltear's Mind Manipulation is better then Darth Bane and Ragyō Kiryüi"
This is downright wrong. If I can resist mind manipulation that's induced by chemicals/medicine, it doesn't mean I could suddenly block mind manipulation that attacks my metaphysical consciousness to achieve the "Same" effect.
It's like saying my body survived a bullet so I can survive the grim reaper attacking my soul!
See the difference? One is a physical matter. the other is a Spiritual/Magical matter that I have no experience in dealing with.
Nowhere is it stated that the Dragon Element is supernatural. In fact, it's directly related to a Miasma that's described in a way that it's highly likely it's more of a physical thing rather than any supernatural or magical ways.
"No we haven't.
No matter the effect of how Mind Manipulation works or is achieved the potency is what matters
Unless you want to tell me Shalltear's Mind Manipulation is better then Darth Bane and Ragyō Kiryüi"
This is downright wrong. If I can resist mind manipulation that's induced by chemicals/medicine, it doesn't mean I could suddenly block mind manipulation that attacks my metaphysical consciousness to achieve the "Same" effect.
It's like saying my body survived a bullet so I can survive the grim reaper attacking my soul!
See the difference? One is a physical matter. the other is a Spiritual/Magical matter that I have no experience in dealing with.
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Messing with the mind one was or another is the same thing on this site, it's the potency of how said Mind Manipulation that we accept not it its magic
Also there's nothing "Metaphysical" about a consciousness, concience is controlled by your brain, control that you control the conscience
Type 1 Abstract existence for every human when?
Also there's nothing "Metaphysical" about a consciousness, concience is controlled by your brain, control that you control the conscience
Type 1 Abstract existence for every human when?
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@andy
Ummm, we do not equate biological mind manipulation (say jokers drug) with metaphysical mind-hax (bloodborn kind of stuff)
Ummm, we do not equate biological mind manipulation (say jokers drug) with metaphysical mind-hax (bloodborn kind of stuff)
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We don't know if it's magical or not. It's not physical, read any MH stories and it's ambiguous. We can't just ignore the resistance because it's not magical or physical because it will just be ignorance. Like let's say character A can resist mindhax with unknown origin. Then character B uses magic to mindhax. Do you just ignore the resistance? I think not.
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Not doubting that, but saying that it doesn't matter what causes the mind-hax is still wrong
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It's unknown, it's still valid. Even Effluvium uses God knows what to mindhax those people especially considering EDs have sometimes have abilities that can't be explained by biology and stuff. Like Dalamadur's meteors.
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By entering their bodies. Only physical function we know is acceleration of decomposition. We don't know shit about how they mindhax.
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Effluvium is miasma or virus. It's the primary component for ecosystem within Rotten Vale.
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It's ambiguous, it's not. If I hit you with magical beam that hurts you and mindhax you, then what is it? Also Dragon Resistance is a thing.
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If it is specifically a magic beam then it is obviously magical and not physical in nature.
If the mind-hax stems from a virus as you have described, then it is clearly physical.
If the mind-hax stems from a virus as you have described, then it is clearly physical.
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It's a virus, I'm using metaphor here. You can have physical and Non-Physical attack with the same power. Dragon Element is definitely not physical. Guild, who can spot-on the behavior of a monster by just sending scraps, don't what the hell actually the DE is. And then "**** it. We just use it anyway." Or something like that. It has connection to mystical nature of EDs and directly attacks the mind and it's not miasma, watch every single MH video you want and it's not going to be miasma.
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You double posted dude
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Whoa,dopost Rein,dopost.
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That's Metaphysical though.Ricsi-viragosi said:
Metaphysical typically details abstracts
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Mistype!
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There are several, magical or not, powers that affect the mind and not the brain without the enemy being an abstract
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Yeah. 's true, mostly because abstract characters are a lot less common. Metaphysical is, like you said, affecting the mind rather than the brain. The consciousness rather than the chemicals.
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So from what I see of this thread is...
Metaphysical Mind Hax =/= Physical Mindhax regardless of potency.
As Metaphysical Mind Hax deals with a concept that has absolutely no connection to the physical Mind. Like the Force, it's mind trick is almost definitely not only physical.
Anyways, I'm going to have to see more lore bits on the Dragon Element because the Effluvium as you described, definitely sounds like a physical thing. You're going to need to prove that the Dragon Element is not physical either, since resisting the Dragon Element means you're also able to resist Effluvium, something we have established to be a physical thing.
" .Guild, who can spot-on the behavior of a monster by just sending scraps, don't what the hell actually the DE is And then "**** it. We just use it anyway." Or something like that. It has connection to mystical nature of EDs and directly attacks the mind and it's not miasma, watch every single MH video you want and it's not going to be miasma."
That's not evidence that it's metaphysical. It's just a lack of knowledge from Guild. A Character's ignorance/lack of knowledge is not evidence. Hell, we have characters who can tell what happened in a crime scene by a few splatters of blood somehow (Batman, Spiderman in the Games, a few Sherlock Homes games, etc.) and we don't see them getting metaphysical eyesight. Determining the behavior of a monster spot on by a few scraps is not a metaphysical feat as you can somewhat do that in real life. The muscle density of the creature to determine if it's a runner, maybe it's a tendon that lets you determine whether they're a carnivore that relies on it's strong bite to kill things, and make educated guesses from little samples. After several years of this, one tends to get good on their hunches.
Gonna need a citation on DE being Metaphysical, as all current "Ambiguous" evidence points to it being a physical thing.
Not sure what the bit about miasma at the end is referring to, so I'll leave it at that.
Metaphysical Mind Hax =/= Physical Mindhax regardless of potency.
As Metaphysical Mind Hax deals with a concept that has absolutely no connection to the physical Mind. Like the Force, it's mind trick is almost definitely not only physical.
Anyways, I'm going to have to see more lore bits on the Dragon Element because the Effluvium as you described, definitely sounds like a physical thing. You're going to need to prove that the Dragon Element is not physical either, since resisting the Dragon Element means you're also able to resist Effluvium, something we have established to be a physical thing.
" .Guild, who can spot-on the behavior of a monster by just sending scraps, don't what the hell actually the DE is And then "**** it. We just use it anyway." Or something like that. It has connection to mystical nature of EDs and directly attacks the mind and it's not miasma, watch every single MH video you want and it's not going to be miasma."
That's not evidence that it's metaphysical. It's just a lack of knowledge from Guild. A Character's ignorance/lack of knowledge is not evidence. Hell, we have characters who can tell what happened in a crime scene by a few splatters of blood somehow (Batman, Spiderman in the Games, a few Sherlock Homes games, etc.) and we don't see them getting metaphysical eyesight. Determining the behavior of a monster spot on by a few scraps is not a metaphysical feat as you can somewhat do that in real life. The muscle density of the creature to determine if it's a runner, maybe it's a tendon that lets you determine whether they're a carnivore that relies on it's strong bite to kill things, and make educated guesses from little samples. After several years of this, one tends to get good on their hunches.
Gonna need a citation on DE being Metaphysical, as all current "Ambiguous" evidence points to it being a physical thing.
Not sure what the bit about miasma at the end is referring to, so I'll leave it at that.
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Uh. You're wrong dude. Effluviam and Dragon are two different things. Resisting Effluviam is only offered by a few things (normally built out of creatures that exist in said Effluviam, like the Hornetaur) whereas Dragon resistance is on entirely different stuff (normally built from Dragon-element creatures). They're completely unrelated.
And... yeah. Basically Dragon Element isn't understood super well in game, since the game's story is largely propelled by you protecting a research group that is still trying to figure shit out. DE just isn't physical. It is some enigma in the game, generally only given to creatures too bizarre to classify (hence being called "Elder Dragons" as a collective).
So if you're looking for statements and acknowledging there are none since the lore is left purposefully ambiguous, I don't know what you want my guy. If you want the implication, then it is there. Dragon Element is held only by magical creatures and attacks based on intelligence, not on your brain or even ever coming into contact with your brain.
And... yeah. Basically Dragon Element isn't understood super well in game, since the game's story is largely propelled by you protecting a research group that is still trying to figure shit out. DE just isn't physical. It is some enigma in the game, generally only given to creatures too bizarre to classify (hence being called "Elder Dragons" as a collective).
So if you're looking for statements and acknowledging there are none since the lore is left purposefully ambiguous, I don't know what you want my guy. If you want the implication, then it is there. Dragon Element is held only by magical creatures and attacks based on intelligence, not on your brain or even ever coming into contact with your brain.
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Right, sorry, I mistook the dragon Misama with Effluvium. Although Effluv-whatever it is, can be cured by berrys and such in the open world. Unless you're telling me EVERY status effect item is magical now...Mr. Bambu said:
"DE just isn't physical. It is some enigma in the game, generally only given to creatures too bizarre to classify"
Again, none of that was evidence that it was NOT physical. Literally all that tells me is "It's too bizarre to classify. We don't know what it is". Whether it's physical or not has no bearing on "I simply don't know".
"So if you're looking for statements and acknowledging there are none since the lore is left purposefully ambiguous, I don't know what you want my guy. "
Something that points to DE or Effluvium being Metaphysical/On the level of Overlord's Magic would be it I guess? Simply saying "It's ambiguous, so then it's Metaphysical!" even though there's been like... nothing that says it does with more evidence pointing it to be a physical thing. (Also correct me if I'm wrong, but Effluvium is also an ambiguous thing so one cannot say that it's Physical or Magical, but given that it can be cured by physical means, there's more evidence to point that it's physical rather than metaphysical at this point).
"If you want the implication, then it is there. Dragon Element is held only by magical creatures and attacks based on intelligence, not on your brain or even ever coming into contact with your brain. "
Creatures in Monster Hunter are more "We dunno" rather than "Magical Creatures", and attacks based on intelligence isn't a metaphysical or Magical thing. It's just "The smarter you are, the stronger you are". One can say that "The more complex the neurons, the stronger you are" with how ambiguous it is.
Point is, unless we find some form of lore or something (I've scoured all over the Monster Hunter wiki and found nothing, so point me to another codex place I guess? I mean we could always wait for the sequel ;_
, we can't say The Hunter would be able to resist Shalltear on principle. Shalltear's Mind Manipulation is magical, The Hunter's Mind Manipulation Resistance is physical. Claims that The Hunter's Mind Manipulation is magical/metaphysical falls onto you, as what little evidence that IS found (Or, evidence of something that's connected to DE/Effluvium) states that it acts as more of a virus. The Dragon illness thing that I can't remember right now.
Edit:
Also, Effluvium is definitely physical. Both examples of Mind Manip. Resistance on The Hunter's Profile right now are Physical-based.
"A deep valley that rests beneath the Coral Highlands.
Monster corpses fall to the Vale from above, creating a layer of
decomposing remains that seems to serve an important ecological role.
Also unique to the Vale is the bacteria known as the effluvium, which devours organic matter." - Monster Hunter World Website; Rotten Vale
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1. yes, Effluviam can be, Dragon stuff does oddly enough appear in very rare berries (appropriately named Dragon Berries) but IIRC that was due to residual runoff of the local elder dragon population. Sorta like Radiation.
2. Again, implications are what we have aside from the game flat out saying "This is unnatural and weird". Then again, this could easily fall under the good ole thing of something being sufficiently advanced so it appears as though it is magic.
3. Attacking one's mind is metaphysical. It is explicitly attacking the mind and the intelligence of the creature, not the brain.
4. Yes, Effluviam is physical because it is literally just a miasma floating about in the air, but we're not saying Effluviam is metaphysical. That was dropped ages ago. but Dragon Element explicitly attacks consciousness. We just don't have statements on what it is, just what it does.
5. Point is, no. Again, it explicitly attacks the mind. Not the brain. The intelligence of the creature. We don't need some lore daddy to hop in and say "THIS IS MAGIC" if it has the other ingredients. Just like we don't need a statement "THIS IS LIGHTNING" if it comes from a cloud.
2. Again, implications are what we have aside from the game flat out saying "This is unnatural and weird". Then again, this could easily fall under the good ole thing of something being sufficiently advanced so it appears as though it is magic.
3. Attacking one's mind is metaphysical. It is explicitly attacking the mind and the intelligence of the creature, not the brain.
4. Yes, Effluviam is physical because it is literally just a miasma floating about in the air, but we're not saying Effluviam is metaphysical. That was dropped ages ago. but Dragon Element explicitly attacks consciousness. We just don't have statements on what it is, just what it does.
5. Point is, no. Again, it explicitly attacks the mind. Not the brain. The intelligence of the creature. We don't need some lore daddy to hop in and say "THIS IS MAGIC" if it has the other ingredients. Just like we don't need a statement "THIS IS LIGHTNING" if it comes from a cloud.
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"1. yes, Effluviam can be, Dragon stuff does oddly enough appear in very rare berries (appropriately named Dragon Berries) but IIRC that was due to residual runoff of the local elder dragon population. Sorta like Radiation."
This is not evidence of physical nor metaphysical, I'll grant you that. It just seems to be whatever the DE is infecting into the local berry population.
"2. Again, implications are what we have aside from the game flat out saying "This is unnatural and weird". Then again, this could easily fall under the good ole thing of something being sufficiently advanced so it appears as though it is magic. "
Miracles are also unnatural, stuff like perfectly falling down and narrowling dodging a bullet from an assailant and such. Doesn't mean those people are magical or something. Also just LOOKING at the creatures in Monster Hunter, I would not be surprised if they're just a really advanced form of life.
Asgardian Magic is Science and all that jazz.
"3. Attacking one's mind is metaphysical. It is explicitly attacking the mind and the intelligence of the creature, not the brain. "
I'm going to just disregard the "Attacking the intelligence" bit because that'd be implying that every hit would make the opponent dumber (lol), I'm going to be frank. The Mind in fiction is almost never referred to in a "Metaphysical" sense. I can name drop way too many series that uses the word "Mind" but then goes on to refer to something physical. Like "The mind is dead" when referring to brain death. So I'm going to need a little more than "Attacks the mind", or else all dragon ball characters should have some form of Mind Manipulation since an aspect of Ki is the Mind.
The paragraph above directly ties into your 4 and 5 so I don't think I need to quote those.
"We don't need some lore daddy to hop in and say "THIS IS MAGIC" if it has the other ingredients. Just like we don't need a statement "THIS IS LIGHTNING" if it comes from a cloud. "
No, that's not how it works. Lightning is a natural phenomenon that humans has proven for many centuries now. In order for something to be flat out magical, we need to prove that is true as humans has proved "This is Lighting" to be true.
This is not evidence of physical nor metaphysical, I'll grant you that. It just seems to be whatever the DE is infecting into the local berry population.
"2. Again, implications are what we have aside from the game flat out saying "This is unnatural and weird". Then again, this could easily fall under the good ole thing of something being sufficiently advanced so it appears as though it is magic. "
Miracles are also unnatural, stuff like perfectly falling down and narrowling dodging a bullet from an assailant and such. Doesn't mean those people are magical or something. Also just LOOKING at the creatures in Monster Hunter, I would not be surprised if they're just a really advanced form of life.
Asgardian Magic is Science and all that jazz.
"3. Attacking one's mind is metaphysical. It is explicitly attacking the mind and the intelligence of the creature, not the brain. "
I'm going to just disregard the "Attacking the intelligence" bit because that'd be implying that every hit would make the opponent dumber (lol), I'm going to be frank. The Mind in fiction is almost never referred to in a "Metaphysical" sense. I can name drop way too many series that uses the word "Mind" but then goes on to refer to something physical. Like "The mind is dead" when referring to brain death. So I'm going to need a little more than "Attacks the mind", or else all dragon ball characters should have some form of Mind Manipulation since an aspect of Ki is the Mind.
The paragraph above directly ties into your 4 and 5 so I don't think I need to quote those.
"We don't need some lore daddy to hop in and say "THIS IS MAGIC" if it has the other ingredients. Just like we don't need a statement "THIS IS LIGHTNING" if it comes from a cloud. "
No, that's not how it works. Lightning is a natural phenomenon that humans has proven for many centuries now. In order for something to be flat out magical, we need to prove that is true as humans has proved "This is Lighting" to be true.
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Every attack doesn't make you dumber. Every attack hurts more based on how intelligent you are. It directly attacks your mind. And that is how it works lol. Lightning is natural in real life but that's sorta irrelevant.
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