How powerful are the Silmarils V.2.

[MasterOfArda]

So, after the Ungoliant downgrade thread I decided to make this thread, as, you see, Ungoliant attained her power from the Two Trees.

What those this mean?

Well, since she attained her power from the light of the Two Trees, and the Silmarils gain their power from the light of the Two Trees, each of the Silmarils would have a third of the Two Trees' power.

That would make each of the Silmirals "At least 4-A, likely 3-B"

Who does this scale too?

Well, Feanor created the Silmarils so logically, he should scale.

I also hear the claim that he used the light of the Two Trees, however, Varda also used the light of the Wells of Varda to make the stars, so if we accept that feat, we should accept this one as well.

We can also scale him from Fingolfin, as Feanor is the strongest elf.

Fingolfin should also scale since he fought Morgoth, who was wearing the Silmirals at the time. Additionally, Morgoth was still considered the greatest of all things at the time, so he shold scale to Valar.

Before we go on, I would like to make it clear that I doubt the Balrogs even remotely scale.

Next up we have Carchroth. This one is obvious since he had the Silmiral, ad Huan should scale as well.

Earendll should also scale, as he possesed a Silmiral, and that would scale to Ancalagon

So, in conclusion:

Feanor, with or without the Silmarils=At least 4-A, likely 3-B (Created the Silmarils from the light of the Two Trees, the same light that fueled Ungoliant. Stated to be the strongest elf, making him superior to Fingolfin).

Fingolfin=At least 4-A, likely 3-B (Fought Morgoth, who was wearing the Silmarils at the time. Morgoth was also stated to be the greatest of all things, making him stronger than the Valar).

Earendil with the Silmaril=At least 4-A, likely 3-B (Possesed a Silmiral. which he Silmarils were made from the light of the Two Trees, the same light that fueled Ungoliant).

Ancalagon=At least 4-A, likely 3-B (Fought Earendil, who possesed the Silmaril at the time. The Silmarils were made from the light of the Two Trees, the same light that fueled Ungoliant).

Carachoroth with the Silmaril=At least 4-A, likely 3-B (Posesed a Silmaril. The Silmarils were made from the light of the Two Trees, the same light that fueled Ungoliant).

Huan=At least 4-A, likely 3-B (Fought and killed Carachoroth, who possesed a Silmaril. The Silmarils were made from the light of the Two Trees, the same light that fueled Ungoliant).

Sorry if I missed some, and my sinere apologize if there are any obvious mistakes in my reasoning.

 

[Dark649]

I'm not that knowledgable about these characters of the verse.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask Azathoth, The Everlasting, and Matthew to comment here if you wish.

 

[Kaltias]

The Silmarils are <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< the Trees tho. They have the light of the two trees, but I don't recall any statement of the power being comparable

 

[MasterOfArda]

They have enough power to recreate the Two Trees.

Plus, they would still be the same tier even if there a thousand times weaker.

 

[Antvasima]

Have you asked the others to comment here?

 

[MasterOfArda]

I woke up a minute ago.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[MasterOfArda]

I have asked, except for Azathoth, as I don't want to bother him with constant requests.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Can we get rid of Feanor's notable attacks/techniques, and preferebly his gallery too.

 

[Kaltias]

They don't have this kind of power. Yavanna needs their light to recreate the two trees because the trees were her masterpiece, she can't recreate them from zero. And the Silmaris contain the light of the two trees.

Also the Silmarils weaken Morgoth.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Yes, but he is still tankng their power, implying that he has that kind of durability.

We also have the quote that says Morgoth was still the greatest of all things, making him "At least 4-A, likely 3-B"

Fingolfin is then "At least 4-A, likely 3-B", and then Feanor scales.

It makes no sonse for Feanor to create weapons weaker then himself.

Plus, where was it siad that the Silmirals where weaker than the Two Trees.

 

[MasterOfArda]

They don't have this kind of power. Yavanna needs their light to recreate the two trees because the trees were her masterpiece, she can't recreate them from zero. And the Silmaris contain the light of the two trees.

Light is a form of energy.

 

[Kaltias]

Dude I can make a nuke but this doesn't make me City level. The purpose of weapons in general is being stronger than the user

 

[MasterOfArda]

Okay.

So the Silmirals should be stronger than Feanor.

Now, we need to find out what tier Feanor is.

Morgoth was stated to be the greatest of all things, making him stronger than the Valar.

Fingolfin fought Morgoth (And it should be noted he fought Morgoth when he was the greatest of all things), making him "At least 4-A, likely 3-B"

Feanor had the most power of all elves, making him "At least 4-A, likely 3-B"

And if the Silmirals are stronger than him, they must be "At least 4-A, likely 3-B"

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we need Azathoth's input here. He knows the most about LOTR among the staff.

 

[MasterOfArda]

I just don't want to bother him with constant messages.

 

[Antvasima]

I will do it then.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The Silmarils are...kind of a tough situation, honestly.

 

[MasterOfArda]

A question.

Is the scaling I mentioned for Morgoth (Feanor to Fingolfin to Morgoth to Valar), the one that would scale Feanor and Fingolfin to "At least 4-A, likely 3-B" valid?

Thanks.

 

[MasterOfArda]

I just realized that Feanor and Fingolfin's pages don't follow the standard format.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth

Well, I would appreciate if you could make an effort with this, and LOTR in general, as you seem to be the only staff member who understands the franchise well.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Can I fix the format errors on the pages?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that should probably be harmless.

 

[MasterOfArda]

I fixed the gallery, though I think it might be better to remove it all together.

 

[Antvasima]

What gallery?

 

[MasterOfArda]

Feanor and Fingolfin's pages had a gallery, but instead of an image there was a link to one. I fixed that, but I think it would be better to remove them all together.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to do so then.

 

[MasterOfArda]

I have removed them.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Do you have an opinion on this?

 

[Antvasima]

No, not particularly. I have not had the energy to focus properly on this issue, but if the issue has been resolved, should I close this thread?

 

[MasterOfArda]

The issue has not been resolved.

The gallery is not the issue.

I understand that, if you don't have enough energy, you can't focus on this, however, without Azathoth I do not know who can make a call.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you can ask Azathoth (again), The Everlasting, and Dark649 to see if they are interested.

 

[MasterOfArda]

I asked Azathoth, though he doesn't seem to be interested.

I will ask everlasting.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Can we fix the Valar's striking strength?

 

[Antvasima]

What do you wish to change and why?

 

[Antvasima]

(You will also need to make a list of all the exact page titles for all of the profiles that you want changed. Othervise my automatic unlocking script cannot handle them.)

 

[VoidReaper]

There are some flaws in the logic behind some of these statements;

"Well, since she attained her power from the light of the Two Trees, and the Silmirals gain their power from the light of the Two Trees"


This is flawed because the two trees are the source power, the Silmarils are simply made by some essence of their material. Loosely speaking its like saying all things that source their power from electricity are equal with no difference in power between a desk fan and the Hadron collider.

"Well, Feanor created the Silmirals so logically, he should scale."

i concur with Kaltias, this possition is untennable. someone being able to craft with a material is not =/= that materials powers or properties.

" greatest of all things at the time, so he shold scale to Valar."

Well that does not bode well for scaling of Valar because if I recall Morgoth was effectively a giant with a large mace at the time, like a giant version of Sauron from the movies. A single elf managed to wound him several times before h finally landed a killing blow, its a typical david and goliath scenario.


If I recall physical destruction was mentioned although I have not read it for a while.


In conclusion Tolkiens works are fairly ambigious on how the Silmarils function in terms of power, evil burns from their touch, its not clear if wearing them actually affords you power but eating them seemed to make Carcaroth larger and more ferocious due to his pain, if it made him mystically more powerful it is not stated.

Ungoliant grew in power from drinking dry the Trees themselves, and it is unclear how she scales even at base before her amp. So scaling from her is frought with errors and scaling from Morgoth is as well since all his best feats come from before he weakened himself by bleeding his energy into his creations.


Finally, be careful as I said in the other thread about assuming meaning from some words like "greatest". This does not necesserily mean Morgoth was still more powerful physically or magically in a fight than others, Tulkus has always kicked his kiester if I recall in combat and other Valar and even lesser beings, Maiar and below have threatened him and his creations. Didnt a mere human (Turin?) slay one of his dragons? And even more, is destined to slay Morgoth hmiself in the end times.

Greatest could mean many things beyond combat prowess, he no doubt is the greatest due to the fact hes effectively embodied Arda with his power and forevor transformed the creation of the other Valar.