Honkai: Star Rail Discussion Thread

[Emirp sumitpo]

So barring GGZ, High 1-C is supposedly getting hammered to just 4-D to maybe 7-D?

 

[PasserbyHonkaiExpert]

Can't believe I didn't see this thread until now. This is what I get for not paying attention to the forum.

Anyway, Honkai isn't actually 11-D by wiki standards. The Durandal VN was quite clear on the nature of the dimensions in the cosmology. According to Schrodinger, who's one of the most reliable sources for cosmology information, the Universe is composed of 3+1 spatial dimensions (the +1 being time), and 7 finite curled dimensions. Spatial dimensions are the only type of dimensions relevant to the setting that would count for tiering.

The other 7 extra dimensions are quite clearly referred to as being curled and finite, which means they're compactified string dimensions. As in, they're the small kind that don't count for any kind of AP tiering. So even the toppest tiers in all of Honkai don't even come close to being 11-dimensional in AP. Meaning no High 1-C.

There's a lot of discussion about this on the Hoyoverse Discord server that I constantly put out but nearly no contributors seem to want to join. There's a lot of CRT content we're planning on putting out, and while it's mostly relevant to Honkai Impact 3rd, it'll still affect HSR by virtue of scaling Welt.

After some discussions, the highest that the verse can theoretically go to (barring the Outer Gods of GGZ), is 7-D.

I'm more or less aware of it as I've seen your previous discussions on the HI3 topic. Tho I didn't see the discussion that said it could theoretically go to 7-D.
Although I'm not sure if the quoted text from Durandal VN is actually refering to the entire universe or is a case of early terminology being inconsistent.

Durandal VN says that "the Sea Of Quanta does not belong to a single universe".
And this same text is brought up in Ch 10 by Einstein where she says that the SoQ is formed from the spill-over of many parallel universes.
Given the background CG calls this parallel universes by "world" what seems to be happening is that back then the term world and universe was used interchangeably which would match with Shakespeare saying that Iron Mask (Shrodinger) talked about "the Multiverse or whatever...".
So when Shrodinger says "that Universe" it's likely instead refering to the world the cast knowns so I'm unsure how it would reflect to the Universe in it's totality.

But assuming it's refering to the entire universe (the one with infinite realities)'s extra dimensions are all curled how would that reflect on things like the Cocoon, the Aeons and even that one toilet who some researchers tried to elevate to a higher dimension?

 

[Solacis]

So barring GGZ, High 1-C is supposedly getting hammered to just 4-D to maybe 7-D?

Likely at least 5-D, but almost definitely no higher than 7-D.

 

[Solacis]

But assuming it's refering to the entire universe (the one with infinite realities)'s extra dimensions are all curled how would that reflect on things like the Cocoon, the Aeons and even that one toilet who some researchers tried to elevate to a higher dimension?

Regardless of what Schrodinger was actually referring to, this would still be the case. The fact that she mentions that the extra 7 dimensions exist in a finite curl, then even if it was only limited to a singular world, the nature of the 7 extra dimensions would still be compactified strings. None of it would allow for dimensional tiering.

The one statement about the Cocoon's higher dimensionality would end up giving it Low 1-C, being infinite in a transfinite sense in comparison to a singular world. Which is consistent with Cocoon Kiana's sensory range being able to encompass the Sea of Quanta, though her skill limits her practical range as has been established from the beginning.

Essentially the leading theory is like this:

Remember that "worlds" are not singular moments in time, but the full encompassing of the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a given civilization. We also know that Many Worlds Theory applies, where every decision creates a branch timeline within each world. So if we take that a world is the composite of all these branch timelines, combined with Schrodinger's statement about "that Universe is infinite in 4 dimensions" (which I've been told is grammatically meant to refer to the world, not the Tree, contrary to later terminology), then a full Leaf World encompassing all of these alternate worlds into a point would be 5-D.

We also know with Einstein's metaphor for the Sea of Quanta that it broadly encompasses all Leaf Worlds, and contains Bubble Worlds within itself. So if we take this as another increment to spatial dimensionality, then the SoQ would be 6-D, which is consistent with Cocoon statements and post-Part 1 Kiana's feats and statements.

Now take into account that the Tree is almost universally treated as being qualitatively superior to the Sea of Quanta, being the origin of all concepts and being above all conventional laws of physics. That would make the Imaginary Tree 7-D.

Thus:

Individual World-lines = Finite 4-D

All World-lines = Infinite 4-D

Leaf World encompassing all World-lines = 5-D

Sea of Quanta = 6-D

Imaginary Tree = 7-D

 

[Aether2734]

Are "worlds" Here reffering to different space time?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Regardless of what Schrodinger was actually referring to, this would still be the case. The fact that she mentions that the extra 7 dimensions exist in a finite curl, then even if it was only limited to a singular world, the nature of the 7 extra dimensions would still be compactified strings. None of it would allow for dimensional tiering.

The one statement about the Cocoon's higher dimensionality would end up giving it Low 1-C, being infinite in a transfinite sense in comparison to a singular world. Which is consistent with Cocoon Kiana's sensory range being able to encompass the Sea of Quanta, though her skill limits her practical range as has been established from the beginning.

Essentially the leading theory is like this:

Remember that "worlds" are not singular moments in time, but the full encompassing of the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a given civilization. We also know that Many Worlds Theory applies, where every decision creates a branch timeline within each world. So if we take that a world is the composite of all these branch timelines, combined with Schrodinger's statement about "that Universe is infinite in 4 dimensions" (which I've been told is grammatically meant to refer to the world, not the Tree, contrary to later terminology), then a full Leaf World encompassing all of these alternate worlds into a point would be 5-D.

We also know with Einstein's metaphor for the Sea of Quanta that it broadly encompasses all Leaf Worlds, and contains Bubble Worlds within itself. So if we take this as another increment to spatial dimensionality, then the SoQ would be 6-D, which is consistent with Cocoon statements and post-Part 1 Kiana's feats and statements.

Now take into account that the Tree is almost universally treated as being qualitatively superior to the Sea of Quanta, being the origin of all concepts and being above all conventional laws of physics. That would make the Imaginary Tree 7-D.

Thus:

So characters like Jing Yuan who scales to characters who can destroy leaves would Low 2-C based off of this? While Kiana with the cocoon would be Low 1-C, and then the Aeons and the Will of Honkai all become 1-C?

 

[Solacis]

Are "worlds" Here reffering to different space time?

Different leaf worlds, yes

 

[Solacis]

So characters like Jing Yuan who scales to characters who can destroy leaves would Low 2-C based off of this? While Kiana with the cocoon would be Low 1-C, and then the Aeons and the Will of Honkai all become 1-C?

None of the Aeons actually scale to the whole Tree, so no on that front. None of them have feats on that level.

Will of Honkai is < Cocoon, so also no on that.

Only GGZ characters so far are provably on the same scale as the Tree, so only they're 1-C.

GGZ Outer Gods may become 1-A, but that's a very long discussion we don't have nearly enough GGZ knowledgeables to even start.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Only GGZ characters so far are provably on the same scale as the Tree, so only they're 1-C.

GGZ Outer Gods may become 1-A, but that's a very long discussion we don't have nearly enough GGZ knowledgeables to even start.

I see

Will of Honkai is < Cocoon, so also no on that.

Oof. So what will it get hammered to?

What about the Jing Yuan and cocoon stuff?

 

[Solacis]

Oof. So what will it get hammered to?

Will of Honkai? Pretty much just = to current Kiana. As in, works by getting the Cocoon to go autopilot.

What about the Jing Yuan and cocoon stuff?

Jing Yuan only really scales to Lord Ravagers due to Welt's general statement about Arbiter-Generals vs Lord Ravagers. Also individual world-lines aren't Low 2-C anyway, since they're explicitly finite in 3-D according to HSR and would be finite in 4-D if it weren't for the connection to the Tree, as we know from Bubble Worlds (which are basically just slightly smaller world-lines).

Currently Jing Yuan's actual feats only go so far as 4-C via tanking Phantylia smacking the cast with a star, being able to harm Phantylia, and then destroying her body after getting her guard down. So no real difference in general tier to the Astral Express crew. Jing Yuan, Dan IL and Welt would be stronger than the current Trailblazer and March, but the differences aren't notable enough for a tier jump.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Currently Jing Yuan's actual feats only go so far as 4-C via tanking Phantylia throwing smacking the cast with a star, being able to harm Phantylia, and then destroying her body after getting her guard down. So no real difference in general tier to the Astral Express crew. Jing Yuan, Dan IL and Welt would be stronger than the current Trailblazer and March, but the differences aren't notable enough for a tier jump.

Ah I see. Thanks.

Thank god for no weird tier jumps

 

[Solacis]

Thank god for no weird tier jumps

About that...

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

About that...

What's happening

 

[Solacis]

What's happening

Well, it's a Honkai 3rd thing, but we're re-looking the scaling logic we've been using to hopefully reconcile the feats and statements in the game more consistently, what with Welt being involved in HSR. Taking a bit more of a standard RPG powerscaling approach like I used to do with the Persona series.

So now, earlier tiers in Honkai 3rd are back to 6-A due to how many calc'ed feats are on that level, with some of the stronger people going up to High 6-A. End-game top tiers that are demonstrably far above other characters can have more absurd tier jumps since it's not as inconsistent as it would be otherwise. The discussions haven't ended yet, but we might reach a middle ground between Tier 6 Honkai and Tier 4 Honkai, though the latter would probably only include characters on the level of Stigma-Awakened Durandal, HoFS Kiana, Post-ER Mei, Elysia and Kevin.

This reconciles why Welt would be as strong as he is in HSR, without having a weird disconnect between the two games.

 

[Aether2734]

Jing Yuan only really scales to Lord Ravagers due to Welt's general statement about Arbiter-Generals vs Lord Ravagers. Also individual world-lines aren't Low 2-C anyway, since they're explicitly finite in 3-D according to HSR and would be finite in 4-D if it weren't for the connection to the Tree, as we know from Bubble Worlds (which are basically just slightly smaller world-lines).

Currently Jing Yuan's actual feats only go so far as 4-C via tanking Phantylia smacking the cast with a star, being able to harm Phantylia, and then destroying her body after getting her guard down. So no real difference in general tier to the Astral Express crew. Jing Yuan, Dan IL and Welt would be stronger than the current Trailblazer and March, but the differences aren't notable enough for a tier jump.

Doesn't lord ravagers have any galaxy buster statements iirc
Why doesn't put lord ravagers like phantylia in 3-C at least? Or did i miss something

 

[PasserbyHonkaiExpert]

Regardless of what Schrodinger was actually referring to, this would still be the case. The fact that she mentions that the extra 7 dimensions exist in a finite curl, then even if it was only limited to a singular world, the nature of the 7 extra dimensions would still be compactified strings. None of it would allow for dimensional tiering.

I see. Makes sense.

The one statement about the Cocoon's higher dimensionality would end up giving it Low 1-C, being infinite in a transfinite sense in comparison to a singular world. Which is consistent with Cocoon Kiana's sensory range being able to encompass the Sea of Quanta, though her skill limits her practical range as has been established from the beginning.

I think you're misremembering the statement. Einstein said that even if they exhaust totality of Honkai on Earth it would still only make them wander around the lowest transfinite cardinal and far from the Imaginary Tree (not the Cocoon) that's also infinite in scale in the transfinite sense.

When talking about the Cocoon's dimensionality I was more so thinking about this line that happens shortly after:
Tesla: "Maybe, it's because of the sheer number of dimensions between us that made this [embrace] so erroneous-"

Essentially the leading theory is like this:

Remember that "worlds" are not singular moments in time, but the full encompassing of the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a given civilization. We also know that Many Worlds Theory applies, where every decision creates a branch timeline within each world. So if we take that a world is the composite of all these branch timelines, combined with Schrodinger's statement about "that Universe is infinite in 4 dimensions" (which I've been told is grammatically meant to refer to the world, not the Tree, contrary to later terminology), then a full Leaf World encompassing all of these alternate worlds into a point would be 5-D.

I don't think a world is composite of all branch timelines? Atleast it doesn't match Nagamitsu's server explanation on how at any point in time on the Imaginary Tree parallel worlds can be created, destroyed or merged given that the branches are a representation of [Time]. It would mean that leaves are being created within leaves (which is not impossible as someone did it in Star Rail but said leaf fits inside a cave and is specifically refered to as a mini-stellar system).
It also would make the Imaginary Tree a poor visual metaphor if a leaf contained the branch(ing) of time instead of the leaf being attached to the end of the branch (aka the Present).
Star Rail's item description for the Leaf Of Imaginary Tree item also says "1 leaf, 1 world" so it wouldn't contain parallel worlds.

None of the Aeons actually scale to the whole Tree, so no on that front. None of them have feats on that level.

This is true.
There are however feats that depending on how they are interpreted would still scale them to its dimensions.

How do you interpret Fuli recreating the universe using memories as a blueprint? Is it just the worlds since the CN Aeon post says that Fuli will "bring back all worlds after their destruction" or the material plane since the memokeeper in the Express talks about how the death of the tangible will lead to the inevitable death of the intangible ence why they collect memories? (Of course it's a creation feat not a destruction one so harder to say if/how it scales)

How do take Welt's statement that they don't need to worry about Xipe creating a storm that would capsize the Galaxia (Imaginary Tree) due to their Primum Mobile? Just refering to it's worlds or the structure itself?

It's the same problem with Lord Ravagers scaling.
They tell us that they are capable of incinerating Stellar Systems (Leaf) and that Zephyro completely destroyed one.
But we don't know if it's refering to it's contents (Stars, Galaxies, etc....) or the space-time itself.
We also don't get a notice of how long it takes to do so, if it's in a instant or if overtime.

This is my biggest annoyance. Feels like every top tier profile will need AP: X possibly Y.

 

[Solacis]

I think you're misremembering the statement (...)

When talking about the Cocoon's dimensionality (...)

I don't think a world is composite of all branch (...)

Star Rail's item description (...)

That essentially all says the same thing. All the Honkai/Imaginary Energy connected to the Imaginary Ending that is pinned by Earth would wander around the lowest infinite cardinal; which is all just a fancy way of saying Earth has infinite Honkai energy from a 3-dimensional being's perspective. The mention of "the sheer number of dimensions between us" has no real bearing on anything because we know outright that these dimensions are still compactified strings. While certainly far-removed from 4-D space, it's not inherently transcendental in the usual sense of dimensional tiering. Honkai has made it quite clear that it, as a series, does not follow the common conventions of dimensional theory found in most fictional verses.

Now with that said, with infinite energy and the context of cosmology, a singular worldline (world branch? world slice? I need a better name) would be 4-D, but not in the powerscaling sense because that implies the 4 dimensions being infinite extensions even before we account for Many Worlds. Rather, said worldlines would each be finite 4-D, which in tiering contexts is basically just Tier Unknown, because it's an arbitrary and unquantifiable subset of the actual infinite 4-D space that encompasses all worldlines, and the possibly 5-D space that composites this into a singular point (Leaf World).

Though on a side note, the more I think on it, the composition into a single point thing and the encompassing thing may well just be the same thing and Leaf Worlds are just 4-D, which honestly feels more streamlined

This is the reason why I separate the composition of a Leaf World into smaller subsets of "worldlines", referring to the physical world that HSR is most likely to also use, "world"/"leaf world", referring to the actual dimensional structure that treats the sum of all these Many Worlds as a single point in space-time; because it's the most easily-processed way to break down how they most likely work in a powerscaling sense.

This is consistent with how, according to our Hoyostans rep and resident GGZ knowledgeable AvengerShows, GGZ also differentiates "worlds" and "space-times" in more recent chapters.

This is true.
There are however feats that depending on how they are interpreted would still scale them to its dimensions.

How do you interpret Fuli recreating the universe using memories as a blueprint? Is it just the worlds since the CN Aeon post says that Fuli will "bring back all worlds after their destruction" or the material plane since the memokeeper in the Express talks about how the death of the tangible will lead to the inevitable death of the intangible ence why they collect memories? (Of course it's a creation feat not a destruction one so harder to say if/how it scales)

How do take Welt's statement that they don't need to worry about Xipe creating a storm that would capsize the Galaxia (Imaginary Tree) due to their Primum Mobile? Just refering to it's worlds or the structure itself?

I would like to see the original scan of this Fuli feat for more context, but with just what you've given me, it's a hard "maybe".

I would also like to see the translation for Xipe's thing, because from what I remember of that quote, all Welt actually said was that it's not in Xipe's nature to cause problems for the universe because doing so would be antithetical to her Primum Mobile.

Ultimately, Aeons are not a defined tier. We know that as far as Aeons go, Lan is kinda mid in terms of actual power, whereas HooH is known to have fused its essence with the Imaginary Tree and can influence events on the largest scale observed so far. It's a case-by-case basis, and it's honestly unlikely we'll ever get proper scaling between them all.

It's the same problem with Lord Ravagers scaling.
They tell us that they are capable of incinerating Stellar Systems (Leaf) and that Zephyro completely destroyed one.
But we don't know if it's refering to it's contents (Stars, Galaxies, etc....) or the space-time itself.
We also don't get a notice of how long it takes to do so, if it's in a instant or if overtime.

This is where the differences between "worldlines" and "leaf worlds" come into play. Context matters here. Yes, Zephyro has destroyed multiple worlds before, but if we look at what he specifically did to do so, it's quite obvious it's only referring to the finite 3-dimensional aspect of worlds and not the fundamental structure of their space-time.

If you refer to the List of Archenemies document in the Seat of Divine Foresight, Zephyro has been recorded to have destroyed worlds by causing the nearby star to go supernova, or creating a worldwide vortex that irreversibly damages the planetary ecosystem. This is consistent with Phantylia's feat of casually summoning and dropping a star, and the feats of another currently-unknown Lord Ravager who has devoured entire chains of stars near-instantly; all being casual star-level feats.

As things currently stand, there's not one hint of affecting anything on the 4th dimension. If it affected the actual "time" of the world, we can say it's a "leaf world" feat. If it doesn't, it's generally Tier 4 at best and an arbitrary Unknown at worst.

This is my biggest annoyance. Feels like every top tier profile will need AP: X possibly Y.

Welcome to actually putting thought into powerscaling. You probably won't enjoy your stay.

 

[Solacis]

On a side note, @Giannysmag should edit the tags on this thread.

The tags should be "Honkai Impact 3rd" and "Honkai: Star Rail" exactly, since there's no "Honkai" page.

 

[Solacis]

Oh they did it. Based and pogchamp.

 

[PasserbyHonkaiExpert]

Now with that said, with infinite energy and the context of cosmology, a singular worldline (world branch? world slice? I need a better name) .

I think Wordline is fine if I'm understanding correctly what you are using it to refer to.

I would like to see the original scan of this Fuli feat for more context, but with just what you've given me, it's a hard "maybe".

(It's just the Data Bank Fuli part but with a added line at the end saying it will bring back all "界" to life using memories as a blueprint after everything ceases to exist.)
Although I just noticed however that here says 界 instead of 世界 so it might also mean "realm" instead.

Here's just the Memokeeper explanation of how Fuli is collecting memories to bring back all that ceased to exist and how many worlds are gone even without the Legion being involved.
I interpret the first line "the disappearance of the tangible will inevitably lead to the death of the intangible" as simply "as everything dies the memories of them will also follow" but I also saw people interpret it as refering to the planes themselves (since the material plane was mentioned in the Nanook Aeon entry).

I would also like to see the translation for Xipe's thing, because from what I remember of that quote, all Welt actually said was that it's not in Xipe's nature to cause problems for the universe because doing so would be antithetical to her Primum Mobile.

Because it's missing in EN just like Welt stating that Stellarons cause stars to collapse.

EN (Official) - Welt: At least one rule is certain: Aeons can only operate according to their Primum Mobile. For example, we won't ever have to worry about the Harmony stirring up a storm.
Alt TL - Welt: Fortunately, at least one rule is certain: The Aeons can only act according to their Primum Mobile. We will never have to worry about the [Harmony] stirring up a storm that would capsize the Galaxia.

Ultimately, Aeons are not a defined tier. We know that as far as Aeons go, Lan is kinda mid in terms of actual power, whereas HooH is known to have fused its essence with the Imaginary Tree and can influence events on the largest scale observed so far. It's a case-by-case basis, and it's honestly unlikely we'll ever get proper scaling between them all.

Most likely.

This is where the differences between "worldlines" and "leaf worlds" come into play. Context matters here. Yes, Zephyro has destroyed multiple worlds before, but if we look at what he specifically did to do so, it's quite obvious it's only referring to the finite 3-dimensional aspect of worlds and not the fundamental structure of their space-time.

You don't need to look at it that deeply. 9/10 cases when people use world in Star Rail they are refering to a planet, with "stellar system" being what they most of the times use to refer to leafs.
Only in specific contexts do they use world to refer to leafs.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

This is a side note but if the main cast isn't tier 3 and above during and after the Xianzhou arc this calc of Phantylia's attack may have some value when its evaluated

Also another Sub rel Seele calc as a bonus

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Yanqing got beaten up again lol (by Trailblazer, or Kafka behind the scenes if you refuse to meet her).

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

I got mommy Kafka ; )

I am now satisfied, I don't have interest on the 1.3 banners of Imbibitor Lunae and Fu Xuan, so I am just keep saving my jades by now

 

[Myguy]

Saving my jades for my glorius king imbibitor lunae dan heng

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

So is the Ravager scaling thing still Tier 1 or is it more Tier 2 ?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So does Kafka got a very good new abilities/haxes?
Also is she top tier in gameplay?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

So does Kafka got a very good new abilities/haxes?
Also is she top tier in gameplay?

Only played the trial for her, but she's pretty neat.

 

[Solacis]

So is the Ravager scaling thing still Tier 1 or is it more Tier 2 ?

Ravagers would only scale to their own feats, which are all sub-Tier 3 for now.

The only characters feasibly (tho arguably) Tier 3 and above are Cocoon Kiana, Sa, Aeons, and GGZ characters.

Tho we may or may not have smurf hax even for lower tiers. That's still up in the air.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Also is she top tier in gameplay?

Well, she's instant S Tier and turn Jing Yuan into Mid Yuan LMFAO: https://www.prydwen.gg/star-rail/tier-list/

kafka S tier in nutshell be like:

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

I got chills man.
Also, just a question. Does this mean that IPC statement about "Each Stellaron Hunter having power to destroy a planet" means by manipulating it to the end of the world scenario like Fallout?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Ig? Because I don't think we've seen any of them straight up annihilate a whole planet or something like that. And manipulations and causing disruptions are kinda their thing.

I'm guessing the cat is Elio and the Robot is Sam. I'm definitely pulling for the robot guy on god

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

Robot dude reveal is the hightlight of this trailer definitely.

 

[Solacis]

Otto's profile is 90% done. Just need to link the scans and add references.

Speaking of references, if anyone's free to help me add them to the existing profiles, that'd be great. Supposedly they're mandatory now.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

I got chills man.
Also, just a question. Does this mean that IPC statement about "Each Stellaron Hunter having power to destroy a planet" means by manipulating it to the end of the world scenario like Fallout?

How the rebellion started.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Otto's profile is 90% done. Just need to link the scans and add references.

Speaking of references, if anyone's free to help me add them to the existing profiles, that'd be great. Supposedly they're mandatory now.

Speaking of that, do we have any of HSR pages yet?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Speaking of that, do we have any of HSR pages yet?

No. We were waiting for the current Xianzhou arc to end iirc, and we're still deciding tiers.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

No. We were waiting for the current Xianzhou arc to end iirc, and we're still deciding tiers.

Isn't the Xianzhou arc on hold temporarily for the Harmony cult planet arc? I saw it on a news article.

 

[Solacis]

Otto's profile should be done by tomorrow. Fu Hua's page will likely be just as difficult, but at least I like Hua.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Isn't the Xianzhou arc on hold temporarily for the Harmony cult planet arc? I saw it on a news article.

Seems so. I do feel we probably have enough info to make profiles. But considering HI3 is getting revised apparently and the two kind of cross scale due to Yang, we should probably wait.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Ngl Kafka seems cool asf.