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Hollow Knight/ The Knight Potential Massive Buff

If every dream is an endless universe (which they are described to be). And there are thousands to possibly more bugs. Including the dead ones as well (Dead bugs confirm have dreams as well). And radiance has all that in her power. Yea. Multiversal is where it should land. Not just 3-A
 
Went here on a tip from a friend. Greeting, thread. So, a few inconsistencies and errors, and also my opinion:

1. It is not officially known by what standards characters growth in Hollow Knight is determined. But I noticed that Buttersamuri said that the growth of "Knight" is 7 meters in the form of God of Gods. Moreover, it is not shown completely, which once again refutes this conclusion.

2. It cannot be said that Radiance is imprisoned precisely in the world of dreams, specifically it is imprisoned in the mind of Hollow Knight.

 
1. 7 meters? I don't recall saying something like that. Most remember that would be that big is how high Zote could teleport. And I'm pretty sure it's actually larger. Knight I calced to be a little over 10 inches.

2. Well you fight the radiance in Hollow Knights Dream. Or Dream world. And she also is said to have control over most all Dream worlds
 
I don't think a Start game / End game sort of formula regarding tiers work on a profile like The Knight's since even without any of the game's upgrades (Charms, mask fragments, nail upgrade, ETC.), The Knight can still beat The Radiance with a broken nail and charmless, presumably at least. It only works with RPG characters like Joker since in RPG games the character usually level up their statistics through out the game. I don't know, it's rather odd IMO.

I'm also a bit iffy on the whole Multiversal tiering since the logic revolving around Dreams in Hollow Knight are rather difficult to depict, so the fact that they are 'eternal' doesn't seem too helpful (I mean, a game about small bugs being 2-B alone is a stretch).

However, the Hgh 8-C feats don't seem too bad in my opinion and may be pretty legit.
 
I'd like to add this

The very moment the Knight arrives inside the dream realm, before the final fight starts, you'll see something that seems to be a sun in the background. That "sun", later transforms into the Radiance.

Radiance1
Radiance2
Whether or not it is a valid feat, is not up to me, however.
Radiance3
 
I always put this feat into consideration but it's likely just the Radiance's light manipulation making it seem like she's the sun. If the sun had remained throughout the battle, some sort of 4-C to High 4-C tiering could be applied since her death completely destroys the Dream they fight in but that doesn't seem to be the case.
 
Maybe you could consider her "as bright as the sun"? But that would be somewhat speculative. At least we do have a comparison to go by, though.
 
We can't think about it like "oh they are Bugs and that makes them being multiversal iffy." Cause what they are frankly has no bearing in this situation. Infinite is still infinite. A Dream having no end and is infinite would be universal. And to defeat radiance who had control over all Bugs dreams. Which we know even after a bug dies, their dreams live on, that's definitely a massive amount. There are hundreds to thousands of bugs in the game that we see. And then the already dead ones who dream to (we know this as we can even enter a dead Bugs Dream), and potentially a much more massive amount consider all bugsz
 
There's also the fact that the Radiance's apparent size doesn't change at all when it jumps from the background into the foreground.
 
The bug thing was just a nitpick, disregard that. But I still don't think scaling AP to the Dream World still doesn't work. I'm actually unsure about the Godhome feat now.
 
Why though? Doesn't seem like a good enough reason just because you don't think. Especially since there is another supporting feat where The knight collpases abd destroys The Nightmare Realm. Not just beat someone who has the power of them. But straight up caused the destruction of it. That supporting feat plus no real antifeats should really help
 
They're said to be eternal. But that could mean they're everlasting in age instead of being infinite in length.
 
EMagoIorSouI said:
They're said to be eternal. But that could mean they're everlasting in age instead of being infinite in length.
Click to expand...
No. They are described as infinite by the Dream moth creature. (I forget his name ATM)
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
What's the reasoning again the dreams are infinite?
Click to expand...
The Dream moth creature describes them to be infinite. Eternal is another description it's given at a different point in the game. But that's talking about how after bugs die; their dreams live on. Which is why you can enter a dead Bugs dream
 
Yea. The Seer. She describes them to be infinite. And other game dialogue refers to it also as eternal. It also makes sense when you look at the Dream world. As you can fit entire castles and kingdoms in it, and still shows no actual sign of it ending.

And making a Radiance profile should probably happen too yea. But this threads more so to upgrade our tiny friend
 
Going over the things for The Knights page

So. One important note is Damage taken in dreams do translate physically. How do we know? There are statements by the god like characters who say that Dream death leads to physical death. Aka. It takes effect in the real world.

But most importantly. We see it happen. If you enter a Dream while having the Flower on you from the Flower side mission. If you take damage in the Dream, the Flower in the real world is destroyed. Aka. Your physical body actually felt it. As did the Flower. It effects the real world.

So that should prove Dream world feats scale since they have actual physical effects on The knight

Next. The Scale on the universal-multiversal stuff.

Dreams have on more than one occasion have been referred to as Eternal, Endless, and Infinite. They show no actual end to them, even when they hold entire kingdoms in them, and like the Godseek showed. Even holding its own real inside this realm. So it's very heavily saying Dreams are essentially their own universe. And every single bug, including dead ones, all have dreams.

The Radiance has power over all Dreams and the knight can tank hits and beats the radiance. And Godseek fights a stronger version of the radiance.


Plus. The Godseeks themselves, someone The Knight is stronger than, are able to create their own Dream realms and created the Godseek shown here.

"At some point, they merged within the mind of a single Godseeker. This individual can focus their thoughts into a complex dream world: Godhome. This feat is possible through their mask, which can be passed along other Godseekers. They also built a temporary tuning device in order to find the resonance of other powerful beings in distant lands."


As well. Knightmare King Grimm is powered by the heart which holds the Knightmare realm together. Which is an equal to the Dream realm. The Knight takes hit from this Grimm, destroyed the Knightmare realm, and survived the resulting destruction. So more supporting feats.

Those are he big things. Here's the smaller stuff and what should get edited


Range for Base and Godseek

Should be increased to several dozen meters as he was able to absorb all of the infection which had spread around the entire kingdom. Even at his size, that's still several dozen meters. Since The knight is a little above 10 inches, that definitely reaches past into the meters.


Powers and abilities


Base form

Stat Amp via the infection

Possibly power absorption of some kind (cause he could absorb all of the infection everywhere)

Resistance to Mind Manipulation, Disease Manipulation, and Willpower Manipulation cause resisting the infections bad effects


Godseek form

Everything he already has +

Dimension crossing, size manipulation


AP/Durability wise We should have a key BTW for Normal and Godseek. As Godseek does get stronger and also can cross dimensional plains (went from the Dream world to the living world), and should be vastly stronger than Base Knight.


Base Knight

Attack Potency Multiversal (Was capable of defeating The Radiance who has powers over most all dream worlds which have been described as both infinite and eternal, Killed Knightmare King Grimm who was powered by The Knightmare realm which is the equal to The Dream Realm, Caused the destruction of the Nightmare Realm)

Durability Multiversal (Took hits from Nightmare King Grimm, who was powered by the heart that holds the knightmare realm together, survived the destruction of the Nightmare Realm, Took hits from The Radiance)


Godseek

Attack Potency At least Multiversal (Far stronger than his base form, destroyed the Godseek realm)

Durability At least Multiversal (far tougher than his base form)


This is currently where I believe he should land with the idea Dreams are universes
 
I never do anything here so I'm not sure if I'm allowed to contribute to these threads, but I didn't see anything disallowing me from it after a quick glance at the discussion rules, so whatever. I'm really only gonna discuss one aspect of this anyway.

>The Knight collapsed the Nightmare Realm

No it didn't. The entire point of the Grimm Troupe's ritual is for the current Nightmare King (in this instance, Grimm) to be slain after the Grimmchild collects the Nightmare Flames, allowing the Nightmare King to be reborn through the Grimmchild. It's a cyclical process that essentially allows the Nightmare Heart to live forever. Why would this kind of cyclical process suddenly result in the Nightmare Realm being collapsed this time? It's clearly indicated in-game that Hallownest is one of many kingdoms Grimm has used for the ritual, so would the Nightmare Realm's collapse not have happened all the previous times that the Nightmare King was killed to complete the ritual? There wouldn't even be a Nightmare Heart at that point, which means there would be no Nightmare Realm and no Grimm Troupe. It would have been over after the first ritual, and the one you're taking part in is clearly not the first.

Brumm even implies that the Nightmare King is a slave to the Nightmare Heart, which as has been said here is what sustains the Nightmare Realm. His Dream Nail dialogue in the Howling Cliffs reads as follows:

"Master... are even you a slave? If so, let our chains be broken together!"

The White Lady's dialogue when you speak to her with the Grimmchild equipped after finishing the ritual would suggest this too:

"Success then for the scarlet heart, and irony, to use my spawn to grow its own."

Not only does this disprove Nightmare King Grimm being stronger than the Nightmare Heart, but if the Nightmare Heart is what motivates this cycle to be continued, why would the end of its own ritual result in it being destroyed? It makes absolutely no sense to argue such. I'm not interested in getting super technical with the stuff surrounding The Radiance in this thread, but arguing that the end of the Grimm Troupe's ritual supports a potential multiversal buff is blatantly disregarding the source material.
 
Well. We do think there should be two keys

One for base

One for Godseek (since they get a knew form and likely a lot more powerful)
 
Buttersamuri said:
Well. We do think there should be two keys
One for base

One for Godseek (since they get a knew form and likely a lot more powerful)
Click to expand...
yeah that much stuff lots of CRT on Hollow knight Universe.
 
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