Hollow Knight size revision

[Dragonite007]

So, I guess hope still hinges upon Silksong.

 

[ElAlekaPL]

Yeah that’s true. I kinda wish we could get the verse over the edge to 9-A but that isn’t possible (until Silksong hopefully proves me wrong, but I’ll probably be in my 70s by then)

We have ammulets multipliers for a 9-A TK

Fragile/Unbreakeable Streing increases TK's damage a 50%. If we use the calc that arceus done before, we have 7.05 Megajoules

Fury of the Fallen increases TK's damage a 75%. 8.22 Megajoules

Combining theese ammulets, we have a increases of 170.6%. 12.72 Megajoules...

Crap. Anyway, If they do the calcs, we can use these multipliers to increases the AP, but this only scales to TK for obvious reasons. Also the ammulets that increases the speed could be used as a multiplier

 

[Ghostblock]

Just wondering, is there any way we can calc stuff done by the higher beings, like Unn dreaming the vegetation into Greenpath, The Pale King moving the White Palace to the dream world, or the Shade Lord destroying Godhome?

 

[Axorandom0]

Just wondering, is there any way we can calc stuff done by the higher beings, like Unn dreaming the vegetation into Greenpath, The Pale King moving the White Palace to the dream world, or the Shade Lord destroying Godhome?

I think the best way to measure that is via the creation feats page. Just either measure the size of the vegetation or the white palace and it would likely work as a base for scaling higher beings.

 

[Ghostblock]

I made a (VERY) rough calc for the White Palace using this interactive map, though my methodology might be a little too loose to use. A more in depth method would probably be more accurate but would also probably be way too complicated for me to attempt. Either way calc here.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I made a (VERY) rough calc for the White Palace using this interactive map, though my methodology might be a little too loose to use. A more in depth method would probably be more accurate but would also probably be way too complicated for me to attempt. Either way calc here.

Do we have any way to say creation = AP in hollow knight?

 

[Ghostblock]

Do we have any way to say creation = AP in hollow knight?

All the magic stuff is done by focusing soul, the lore tablet in king's pass mentions how higher beings do magic by focusing their soul, the soul sanctum scholars aimed to achieve a pure focus to do their spells, the godseekers used a mask which focuses their thoughts which was likely used to create godhome, sealing and breaking seals is done through focusing (killing the dreamers and sealing the radiance), the pure vessel creates big explosions by focusing, The Pale King created/is connected to/formed the kingsoul charm which has limitless soul, etc. etc. If everything magical comes down to the user's focus than creation is the result of focusing soul too and it should count for AP.

 

[DavidTPPM]

All the magic stuff is done by focusing soul, the lore tablet in king's pass mentions how higher beings do magic by focusing their soul, the soul sanctum scholars aimed to achieve a pure focus to do their spells, the godseekers used a mask which focuses their thoughts which was likely used to create godhome, sealing and breaking seals is done through focusing (killing the dreamers and sealing the radiance), the pure vessel creates big explosions by focusing, The Pale King created/is connected to/formed the kingsoul charm which has limitless soul, etc. etc. If everything magical comes down to the user's focus than creation is the result of focusing soul too and it should count for AP.

If the calc gets accepted someone should probably make a CRT where they explain this and see if it gets accepted. Because as far as I remember so far nothing on the wiki states this

 

[Arceus0x]

I doubt we could use it to scale anything since we don't know how long it took to move white palace. Also, sinc when did everything require soul? Teleportation required dream essence for The Knight so for all I know PK could've used some essence to teleport the palace. At most I'd give him "possibly 8-B via environmental destruction". Vegetation feat is nothing since it can be done overtime via unknown methods.

 

[Ghostblock]

Lemm describes the white palace as having vanished and the bugs of Hallownest considered the King to be missing so at the very least it probably wasn't something that took days to do because someone would've noticed the palace in the act of disappearing. You're right that Unn making Greenpath doesn't have any kind of known timeframe so its probably useless.
I should probably correct myself to say that MOST of the magic is done with soul, with the exception of essence related stuff, but it seems to me at least to be more reasonable that the King used soul to move the palace because of:
A. The higher beings achieving great feats through focusing their soul lore tablet.
B. The soul totems throughout the White Palace which the King wouldn't need if he didn't use soul, including ones likely made by him (the Hollow Knight totems in the path of pain).
C. Focusing being how the Hollow Knight put the Radiance inside itself, and the Radiance is in the Dream World like the White Palace.
D. The Pale King and White Lady making the Kingsoul (described as "our once-fractured soul") which wouldn't be useful to them if their magic didn't use soul (though it is given as a gift to the knight, it likely was created before the fall of hallownest because that's when the king vanished).
E. The reason the knight can use dream essence to teleport is because they have the Dream Nail, a tool from the moth tribe that the Pale King didn't have.
F. The godseekers using masks that helps focus which is implied to be how they made Godhome, a similar kind of feat to moving the White Palace.
That said, ultimately Hollow Knight loves being super vague about what higher beings are and how they do things so its kinda up to interpretation how most of this higher being magic works.

Edit: Thinking about it, dream ghosts who are made entirely of Essence give off soul when hit, so even if the Pale King used Essence that'd probably still qualify as using Soul in a roundabout way anyway

 

[Arceus0x]

I guess it makes sense but the issue is that making the palace vanish into the dream world is more so BFR. It is basically incalculable and untierable

 

[Ghostblock]

I dunno about that because there are differences between the dream white palace and the original one - for starters the room where the white palace was located in Ancient Basin is way smaller than the dream palace's size, secondly there's all the buzzsaws and spikes and such which probably weren't there when the palace was used as an actual palace, and finally there are still parts of the palace in the real world in the form of the ruined archway - the same archway that is perfectly intact in the dream world. These discrepancies seem to suggest that the dream world palace is in some way different to the original palace, whether due to it being magically expanded, or the result of the pale king completely recreating the palace, both of which should qualify to some degree.

 

[Arceus0x]

I dunno about that because there are differences between the dream white palace and the original one - for starters the room where the white palace was located in Ancient Basin is way smaller than the dream palace's size, secondly there's all the buzzsaws and spikes and such which probably weren't there when the palace was used as an actual palace, and finally there are still parts of the palace in the real world in the form of the ruined archway - the same archway that is perfectly intact in the dream world. These discrepancies seem to suggest that the dream world palace is in some way different to the original palace, whether due to it being magically expanded, or the result of the pale king completely recreating the palace, both of which should qualify to some degree.

doubt it. It being modified doesn't change much at all. The room was smaller but you aren't accountig the fact that there's depth to that room, meaning that the only thing we see is just the area where the entrance and part of the palace was, while the rest would expand inward.
About the modifications, remember that this is all a dream place. Dream areas change according to the dream of the one who own the place. Bretta's dream has a bajillion super powerful Zotes and her as the queen. White defender has parts of the palace. Then there's the whole thing with Godhome and Nightmare Grimm.
Basically the world in the dream changes with the person's dream. Thus, the king could've wanted the place to be defended and thus the buzzsaws appeared. Also we deadass don't know about whether or not there were buzzsaws in his original palace. Maybe it was some f-ed up training course for the vessels. Idk. Either way we don't know how it all happened and it is too vague to scale.

 

[Ghostblock]

doubt it. It being modified doesn't change much at all. The room was smaller but you aren't accountig the fact that there's depth to that room, meaning that the only thing we see is just the area where the entrance and part of the palace was, while the rest would expand inward.
About the modifications, remember that this is all a dream place. Dream areas change according to the dream of the one who own the place. Bretta's dream has a bajillion super powerful Zotes and her as the queen. White defender has parts of the palace. Then there's the whole thing with Godhome and Nightmare Grimm.
Basically the world in the dream changes with the person's dream. Thus, the king could've wanted the place to be defended and thus the buzzsaws appeared. Also we deadass don't know about whether or not there were buzzsaws in his original palace. Maybe it was some f-ed up training course for the vessels. Idk. Either way we don't know how it all happened and it is too vague to scale.

Sure, there's depth to the room, but at the very least the ceiling for the room is way less high than the palace, and the top of the palace would be reaching all the way to the upper levels of the City of Tears - we know this isn't the case because his palace was described as being far below the city and the king was known to be reclusive.
Its technically possible that the saws were there in the first place but at the very least someone who visited the palace, be it the Dung Defender or White Lady, would probably have mentioned the palace being like that, and it'd probably make navigation impossible for the regular retainers. At the very least I'm not convinced about it being a training method for the vessel because why the vessel would need to be good at parkour to seal the radiance is beyond me.

Also the palace possibly being able to fit doesn't change the fact that the palace in the physical world left behind broken gates, with it being described as "remnants" by Lemm and called "ruins" in the Wanderer's Journal, so it could be seen as the physical palace being destroyed and a new palace created in the dream world, which could be used as a destruction feat for the Pale King instead of a creation one.

As for the fact that its a dream, while yes regular bugs like Bretta or False Knight etc can have dreams, there's still a difference between having a dream and moving a physical building into a dream, then modifying that building to become larger. Further, the White Palace isn't in the King's dream, its in the dream of a Kingsmold, who have no mind to dream with in the first place, so the palace changing can't be the result of the Pale King dreaming it as different. (The Broken Vessel also has a dream despite vessels supposedly having no mind, but the Broken Vessel also reaches out for the Knight as it dies, implying that it does have a mind and isn't a perfect vessel).
Also Bretta's dream comes from a statue which for all we know could be a magic statue idk.

Higher beings in general have a different relationship to dreams than regular bugs, like the Radiance dying for real if killed in Godhome or the Grimm Troupe disappearing if the ritual is completed (implied that the previous Grimm has been destroyed by the hunter's journal entries about burning the father to feed the child), or more relevantly the Pale King being dead in the dream palace. Regular bugs, on the other hand, are separate from their dream selves and can be killed multiple times in dreams (like White Defender or Grey Prince Zote) or their dream self can be alive after their physical self dies (like most dream bosses, dream ghosts etc), so there's definitely a difference between their interactions with dreams and higher beings' interactions with dreams. As a result, dismissing feats done involving the dream world by higher beings seems a little hasty imo.

Finally, its important to remember that the dream world is still a real place, not 'just a dream', as its described as a "plane beyond the physical world" in the manual. The dream world was even capable of being split in two, creating dream and nightmare, though how that happened is totally unexplained (but likely involved the nightmare heart, a higher being once again affecting the dream world on a large scale). The dream world contains many beings like the dreamers and radiance which can effect the physical world, and many living creatures in Hallownest originated from dreams, like the mosskin and the moths. The moths in particular are described as able to "shape dreams" in the Dreamshield charm description, which if any regular bug dreaming does the same then this wouldn't have been worth mentioning as an ability. Otherwise, you could possibly argue that ANY dream in hollow knight counts as a creation feat, since having a dream is creating a real place in a different plane.

Sorry for the long, rambly post. In the end though you are right that this stuff is all super vague and not well elaborated, but at the very least I think its worth considering.

 

[Arceus0x]

I made an ultra-lowball calc for the Knight's slash and got subsonic https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...s_fast_-_barebones_no_further_context_version

 

[DavidTPPM]

I made an ultra-lowball calc for the Knight's slash and got subsonic https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...s_fast_-_barebones_no_further_context_version

W
But this should probably first be closed and applied, then a new thread for speed upgrades should be made

 

[Arceus0x]

Sure, there's depth to the room, but at the very least the ceiling for the room is way less high than the palace, and the top of the palace would be reaching all the way to the upper levels of the City of Tears - we know this isn't the case because his palace was described as being far below the city and the king was known to be reclusive.

first off you'd need to prove it'd reach so far. Second, the ceiling we see is that small, not the one beyond our line of depth.

Its technically possible that the saws were there in the first place but at the very least someone who visited the palace, be it the Dung Defender or White Lady, would probably have mentioned the palace being like that

no need for that

, and it'd probably make navigation impossible for the regular retainers.

they chill in the lower parts of the palace is fine

At the very least I'm not convinced about it being a training method for the vessel because why the vessel would need to be good at parkour to seal the radiance is beyond me.

physical training, it was mostly just a joke doe

Also the palace possibly being able to fit doesn't change the fact that the palace in the physical world left behind broken gates, with it being described as "remnants" by Lemm and called "ruins" in the Wanderer's Journal, so it could be seen as the physical palace being destroyed and a new palace created in the dream world, which could be used as a destruction feat for the Pale King instead of a creation one.

it vanished, you said it yourself. Just because parts of it didn't vanish doesn't mean that it was fully destroyed. There was no reason to destroy it either.

As for the fact that its a dream, while yes regular bugs like Bretta or False Knight etc can have dreams, there's still a difference between having a dream and moving a physical building into a dream, then modifying that building to become larger. Further, the White Palace isn't in the King's dream, its in the dream of a Kingsmold, who have no mind to dream with in the first place, so the palace changing can't be the result of the Pale King dreaming it as different.

It could've been sealed up in a kingsmold kinda like the radience was sealed up in THK. Either was this just makes it even more vague on the method.

(The Broken Vessel also has a dream despite vessels supposedly having no mind, but the Broken Vessel also reaches out for the Knight as it dies, implying that it does have a mind and isn't a perfect vessel).
Also Bretta's dream comes from a statue which for all we know could be a magic statue idk.

that's vague and based on nothing. It is a statue which represented her dreams and thus we entered it. arguing that it's magic is like arguing in the 12th century.

Higher beings in general have a different relationship to dreams than regular bugs, like the Radiance dying for real if killed in Godhome or the Grimm Troupe disappearing if the ritual is completed (implied that the previous Grimm has been destroyed by the hunter's journal entries about burning the father to feed the child), or more relevantly the Pale King being dead in the dream palace. Regular bugs, on the other hand, are separate from their dream selves and can be killed multiple times in dreams (like White Defender or Grey Prince Zote) or their dream self can be alive after their physical self dies (like most dream bosses, dream ghosts etc), so there's definitely a difference between their interactions with dreams and higher beings' interactions with dreams. As a result, dismissing feats done involving the dream world by higher beings seems a little hasty imo.

and I think we don't know nearly enough to argue for dream palaces being legitimate feats. Also the knight who is a higher being also doesn't die in palaces and returns to his body normally. I don't see how any of this changes things.

Finally, its important to remember that the dream world is still a real place, not 'just a dream', as its described as a "plane beyond the physical world" in the manual. The dream world was even capable of being split in two, creating dream and nightmare, though how that happened is totally unexplained (but likely involved the nightmare heart, a higher being once again affecting the dream world on a large scale). The dream world contains many beings like the dreamers and radiance which can effect the physical world, and many living creatures in Hallownest originated from dreams, like the mosskin and the moths. The moths in particular are described as able to "shape dreams" in the Dreamshield charm description, which if any regular bug dreaming does the same then this wouldn't have been worth mentioning as an ability. Otherwise, you could possibly argue that ANY dream in hollow knight counts as a creation feat, since having a dream is creating a real place in a different plane.

I think I can see that.

I think it'd be fine to add "possibly __ with creation" to dream users.
The whole thing with NKG and others affecting the dreamworld is a different story altogether though.

 

[Arceus0x]

But I will say that scaling the AP of others to the creation feats would be wrong. We don't really know how PK's soul would operate and whether it is smaller or bigger than The Knight's. He is a mysterious being revered like a god. For all we know he can teleport the building with his soul and just that, not knowing any spells or anything.
Additionally having higher sould wouldn't even make your AP scale since Soul Master has more soul than you and yet scales to you.

 

[Ghostblock]

Funnily enough, the palace reaching up to the City of Tears has already been shown by mossbag of all people. And technically if the Knight dies in the White Palace they actually die, since you game over if you die there in Steel Soul (same with against the Radiance).
You are right that its probably all too vague to use though.
I guess "possibly X with creation" for dream users is the most justifiable result, yeah.
Though one last thought regarding the palace is that if it was moved into the dream world by the king, could it perhaps be used as a lifting strength feat for the king? Not sure if it would count or not since we can only theorise about the exact method used to move it

 

[Arceus0x]

Though one last thought regarding the palace is that if it was moved into the dream world by the king, could it perhaps be used as a lifting strength feat for the king? Not sure if it would count or not since we can only theorise about the exact method used to move it

no. You get LS when you have something that can fully lift something. Gravity manip, air manip, physical strength, telekinesis. Teleporting/creating sth is not an LS feat.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Either way calc here.

Will try and get this evaluated.

 

[Arceus0x]

Hello fellas. Idk why but today Fandom decided to screw me over and banned my account for 3 months randomly. I was editing my blog. I copied my text and tried to save it but forgot that screenshots overwrite my copypastes and now I've lost my entire calc blog.
Here is the pixel scaling

Here is the video


I would appreciate if someone could make a speed calc using this stuff.
Electricity moves over 5 frames, but have an end assuming it moved over 1 frame.
Results in my calc were mach 44 higher end and a mach 8.95 lowball.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Hello fellas. Idk why but today Fandom decided to screw me over and banned my account for 3 months randomly. I was editing my blog. I copied my text and tried to save it but forgot that screenshots overwrite my copypastes and now I've lost my entire calc blog.
Here is the pixel scaling

Here is the video


I would appreciate if someone could make a speed calc using this stuff.
Electricity moves over 5 frames, but have an end assuming it moved over 1 frame.
Results in my calc were mach 44 higher end and a mach 8.95 lowball.

I can write it down in a blog later today or tomorrow.

 

[Arceus0x]

I can write it down in a blog later today or tomorrow.

Thank you

 

[DavidTPPM]

Hello fellas. Idk why but today Fandom decided to screw me over and banned my account for 3 months randomly. I was editing my blog. I copied my text and tried to save it but forgot that screenshots overwrite my copypastes and now I've lost my entire calc blog.
Here is the pixel scaling

Here is the video


I would appreciate if someone could make a speed calc using this stuff.
Electricity moves over 5 frames, but have an end assuming it moved over 1 frame.
Results in my calc were mach 44 higher end and a mach 8.95 lowball.

Could you send me a screen shot of the Hunters Journal about charged lumaflys? It notes they create actual electrical discharge which should be on the calc blog as evidence.
I only play HK on switch so I can't exactly screenshot it myself

 

[DavidTPPM]

Oh and BTW since this was accepted and the grace passed a while ago this thread should be closed and the updated size should probably be put on the verse page as a note so it doesn't get lost.

 

[Arceus0x]

Could you send me a screen shot of the Hunters Journal about charged lumaflys? It notes they create actual electrical discharge which should be on the calc blog as evidence.
I only play HK on switch so I can't exactly screenshot it myself

 

[Arceus0x]

Also credit me in the calc you made pretty please

 

[Arceus0x]

Oh and BTW since this was accepted and the grace passed a while ago this thread should be closed and the updated size should probably be put on the verse page as a note so it doesn't get lost.

you don't have to make my blog anymore bro. I got unbanned.

 

[Arceus0x]

The Knight slashes even faster

vsbattles.fandom.com

Here it is

 

[Arceus0x]

I've made an HK discussion thread

Hollow Knight General Discussion thread - Hallownest awakens

vsbattles.com

we can now talk there about revisions and such

 

[ShakeResounding]

Snip

Got a CGM to comment on your calc. Take a look.