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Hollow Knight size problem

Yeah, your right about that, but going by your scaling, the knight should only be a few centimeters tall, which currently is clearly not the case, because the wiki itself scales him to 10 inches. So that holds less weight, theres also more evidence, such as droplets, in the city of tears, even though droplets can be small, by your scaling, they should be massive, since hornet is stated by the creators to throw her needle 30 yards, and in shorter distances she clearly can be scaled to the needle/thread
 
I disagree with any change to size tbh. Nothing has been provided that implies they're larger than normal insects, whereas some sparse evidence can be provided to prove the contrary. Current size is fine imo.
 
Whycantinamemyself said:
Yeah, your right about that, but going by your scaling, the knight should only be a few centimeters tall, which currently is clearly not the case, because the wiki itself scales him to 10 inches. So that holds less weight, theres also more evidence, such as droplets, in the city of tears, even though droplets can be small, by your scaling, they should be massive, since hornet is stated by the creators to throw her needle 30 yards, and in shorter distances she clearly can be scaled to the needle/thread
Click to expand...
Wrong. We currently consider him 11 mm (or 1.1 centimeters) tall
 
Then i guess they shall stay the same hopefully silksong will provide more evidence, any other statements? i concede to keeping them the same, though the dream feats should most certainly be looked into somwhat
 
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And another quick thing, from the thread about a massive ap buff, I heard someone said that buttersamuri calced a 10 inch knight, was this accepted? or was there another calc that brought him down to 11cm? Im confused
 
We consider him 1.1 cm tall. Butters was so awful at making calculations that he got forbidden from doing it, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that one was wrong too.
 
ok, so do we have more to debate, i could go on but it would be pointless since i agreed with you that we should keep their sizes for now, maybe nee evidence shall crop up in silksong, its possible.
 
Sorry for the break I took, was busy doing some stuff. I'm a bit lost since I'm not used to this forum, but has any conclusion been reached?
 
we have been arguing about it, the main consensus is about the vegetation being too big, so i’ve conceded to keeping them the same, you can try and bring up new points if you want to
 
I wouldn't say there's a consensus quite yet, but this thread has definitely lost steam.
 
Yeah, I'm reading this. Without going into the specifics right now, I disagree with Bambu's conclusion of there having no indication of the bugs of Hollow Knight having normal size. I still think they are normal-sized, and the vegetation bit is one that... I don't know, it just does not sound like compelling evidence. One of the very few clues we have, of course, but even that can be excused as a style or simply as design option, quite easily even. I've seen Armor's comment as well about the two options, and I must disagree about plants being normal-sized and the bugs being small avoiding any logical issues. Both options have issues. But as I see it, the bugs being normal-sized with overgrown plants can be more easily explained as a stylistic option (Which I support - there is a lot of evidence that HK is a heavily stylized world that, even if it is indeed a small world, is incredibly hard to compare to anything in the real world), while the other makes some specific contradictions that makes it hard to give any solid estimations.

Also, there's a piece of evidence posted here about Hornet's reach that is interesting, but admittedly very tangential. I personally consider it valid but barely so. Very debatable. I'd argue that the bugs are normal-sized and that Hornet's reach indeed is of dozens of yards, but it is a topic that it is hard to comment about with my meager english skills lol, idk how to express what I think about this in proper words.
 
Your points make perfect sense to me- I'm still of the opinion they're small, but I can accept a change if the majority agrees. Though the problem is, who'd be as tall as an average human? The Knight? Hornet? Elderbug?
 
Probably the infected bugs you encounter in either Forgotten Crossroads or the ones from City Of Tears
 
"Yeah, I'm reading this. Without going into the specifics right now, I disagree with Bambu's conclusion of there having no indication of the bugs of Hollow Knight having normal size. I still think they are normal-sized, and the vegetation bit is one that... I don't know, it just does not sound like compelling evidence."

No evidence has been provided that the bugs are any larger than normal bugs.
 
Well, I'm not currently sure about right verdict. But in my opinion, let's try to use that 30 yards statement with calculation, to calculate the sizes. 30 yards is pretty big size after all.
 
Oleggator said:
Well, I'm not currently sure about right verdict. But in my opinion, let's try to use that 30 yards statement with calculation, to calculate the sizes. 30 yards is pretty big size after all.
Click to expand...
If you use her throwing range in-game, Hornet ends up being several meters tall, which is silly. If you don't... then we don't know how far she can throw it in relation to herself, so it's useless.
 
Hmmmmm. From one side it's actually silly and there's no logical approvement of them being big. From the other side their small size is based on in-game things assumptions which also wasn't totally approved by game/game developers.
I think I would go here to majority of people in thinking which way is better, cause both ways can possibly fit.
 
I mean, if it dies the default conclusion is keeping it as it is.
 
Okay, now I got some time to discuss this. I'll try to post all my points in a single comment (sorry for the text and for the errors, my english is kind of bad and I tend to ramble a lot)

Answering to Bambu, "No evidence has been provided that the bugs are any larger than normal bugs."
I'd say that there is no solid evidence to both sides. What there is from any of them is very debatable.

About Hornet several-yard throwing, I dislike the idea of pixel-scaling it directly. Even if the world is indeed very small, which I don't doubt, in most Metroidvanias (Arguably in most games) the distances are often very compacted, with stages being implied being way larger (and threedimensional, even in a 2D game) than what they would be if taken at face value from the character's height, their supposed walking or anything. Again, I won't say that there is proof of that in Hollow Knight, and I lack specific examples in mind right now, but in most games I see, the world and stages are implied being way larger and shortened by gameplay convention. That might mean that Hornet really does throw her needle several yards but the size is compacted. That being said, there is a very fair point here that she often throws her needle offscreen. Even in lore perspective, her needle reached the roof of the City of Tears in a cutscene if I'm not mistaken, and in the Quinn comic she did reach really high heights with her needle, although offscreen.

As I see it from reading this, the two points being discussed here, from both sides are:

a) The bugs are small. That is supported by the vegetation looking like really overgrown, otherwise small plants, with some enemies reflecting that, like the Mosskin. Their weapons are called nails and needles, they are called bugs.
b) The bugs are normal-sized. This is supported by a very tangential statement from the author, the very stylistic choice from the authors for most of the universe that makes most comparisons with our world hard if not impossible (I'll detail that in a bit).

To be completely honest, I mostly doubt the small size of the universe purely because most points I saw being made can be summed up as stylistic choice, and for good reason. I dislike using that argument because it is easy to go to logical fallacies by going to extremes, but in this game, it is a sensible option. Why? I'll iterate my points:
  1. The bugs of Hollow Knight, aside from a general theme (they have chitin and general characteristics of bugs, their buildings having bug-like structures and materials...) and some specific examples, do not look like, behave or exemplify actual bugs. The Last Stag used as a point of reference isn't even a stag beetle if I'm not mistaken, and most bugs have serious size inconsistencies if we attempt to scale them to their real life counterparts (I just remembered now that the lumaflies are treated as actual flies compared to the bugs, and that the oomas may, or may not be, flying jellyfish, so...). They aren't any different from any kind of bug-people that I have ever seen.
  2. Their nails aren't even nails, at least not any that I have ever seen, and their size are way, waaaaay too small to be used as actual reference if we do attempt to scale them from bugs. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but most nails I have seen in real life are way larger than many bug species shown in Hollow Knight, and even the smallest ones would be treated as a very big greatnail.
  3. Not exactly a point, but going along with 1, it becomes very hard to quantify and arbitrarily choose anything in Hollow Knight to use as a size reference because, as I said, the bugs there often do not reflect their real-life counterparts or have size differences that are impossible to relate in real life. It makes the choice too arbitrary.
I think there are points to make, but these already makes me dislike the option of scaling them to actual bugs. Seeing as HK is a heavily stylized game, I find it more beliveable that they are normal-sized and that the world is heavily stylized around bugs and their ambiance. To be more precise: We don't know the size of bugs in Hollow Knight and there is no solid or official evidence to any of the supposed sizes. Until there is, it is fairer to assume normal size as we do with any fictional universes.

I recognize that my arguments aren't strong, and I agree. I don't even think that it is particularly likely that they are normal-sized. But I do think that it isn't any less likely than them being small, and for the fairness of the thing, I'd rather consider them normal.

EDIT: Reinforcing my point about size discrepancies, I could make a GIGANTIC list of size ones, but there's that ought suffice... If we take them at face values, dung beetles are only slightly smaller, and way larger in other proportions, than a mantis. Take the Dung Defender and compare him to the Mantis Lords.
 
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EliminatorVenom said:
The bugs of Hollow Knight, aside from a general theme (they have chitin and general characteristics of bugs, their buildings having bug-like structures and materials...) and some specific examples, do not look like, behave or exemplify actual bugs. The Last Stag used as a point of reference isn't even a stag beetle if I'm not mistaken, and most bugs have serious size inconsistencies if we attempt to scale them to their real life counterparts (I just remembered now that the lumaflies are treated as actual flies compared to the bugs, and that the oomas may, or may not be, flying jellyfish, so...). They aren't any different from any kind of bug-people that I have ever seen.
Click to expand...
Plenty appear similar to bugs, though still stilized to a degree. Marmu, for example, is very similar to the bug that inspired it IRL, and plenty of non-infected bug enemies just act like animals, which they are.
EliminatorVenom said:
Their nails aren't even nails, at least not any that I have ever seen, and their size are way, waaaaay too small to be used as actual reference if we do attempt to scale them from bugs. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but most nails I have seen in real life are way larger than many bug species shown in Hollow Knight, and even the smallest ones would be treated as a very big greatnail.
Click to expand...
The nails are probably not real nails, that wasn't the crux of my argument,
EliminatorVenom said:
Not exactly a point, but going along with 1, it becomes very hard to quantify and arbitrarily choose anything in Hollow Knight to use as a size reference because, as I said, the bugs there often do not reflect their real-life counterparts or have size differences that are impossible to relate in real life. It makes the choice too arbitrary.
Click to expand...
You see, the problem is still there if we consider them as tall as people. After all, if we use the common enemy, then basically every NPC, and Hornet, is a giant, and so are the corpses that compose half the backgrounds and the destructible objects in Hallownest (and vastly outnumber these enemies), which feels off. But singe every NPC is so unique, it's impossible to find one to scale from there too. At least, if we consider them small, it is possible to get an actual exact size from some characters, even if it's inconsistent.
EliminatorVenom said:
I think there are points to make, but these already makes me dislike the option of scaling them to actual bugs. Seeing as HK is a heavily stylized game, I find it more beliveable that they are normal-sized and that the world is heavily stylized around bugs and their ambiance. To be more precise: We don't know the size of bugs in Hollow Knight and there is no solid or official evidence to any of the supposed sizes. Until there is, it is fairer to assume normal size as we do with any fictional universes.
Click to expand...
I don't agree with the stylized part excusing things- I would totally agree it does if there was any actual evidence against it, but there just isn't.

Of course you could say that the jumps feeling very floaty and even large, clumsy bosses being able to leap in the air with incredible ease, the improbable levels of architecture from even primitive societies, the constantly huge and oversized vegetation (and mushrooms) and the fact that they're, well, bugs are all stylistic choices, or ones made for the sake of gameplay, and I'm perfectly aware that it's a real possibility... but it is evidence, and it is countered by nothing, unless you wanna count the Hornet statement (which is from kickstarter, and might have been made before the lore was finalized, nevermind that it could just be an accuracy feat for her)
EliminatorVenom said:
EDIT: Reinforcing my point about size discrepancies, I could make a GIGANTIC list of size ones, but there's that ought suffice... If we take them at face values, dung beetles are only slightly smaller, and way larger in other proportions, than a mantis. Take the Dung Defender and compare him to the Mantis Lords.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I got nothin' here, but using Marmu, who's basically the most realistic looking character out there, could be a good idea.
 
"Plenty appear similar to bugs, though still stilized to a degree. Marmu, for example, is very similar to the bug that inspired it IRL, and plenty of non-infected bug enemies just act like animals, which they are."

Oh yeah, there are several bugs in HK that look like the part. Mindless bugs, such as the infected or simply the low intelligence ones, such as tiktiks, do behave like bugs. I wouldn't use the infected ones as examples (they still use weapons and their circumstances are... different) but I know what you mean.

"The nails are probably not real nails, that wasn't the crux of my argument,"

I know, but it was mentioned.

"You see, the problem is still there if we consider them as tall as people. After all, if we use the common enemy, then basically every NPC, and Hornet, is a giant, and so are the corpses that compose half the backgrounds and the destructible objects in Hallownest (and vastly outnumber these enemies), which feels off. But singe every NPC is so unique, it's impossible to find one to scale from there too. At least, if we consider them small, it is possible to get an actual exact size from some characters, even if it's inconsistent."

Here's the thing, as you said: Every single NPC is unique. I don't feel off considering most of them being gigantic because, by each one being unique, that possibility is real. I get the feeling of it feeling weird, but I do think it is natural, considering the theme. And my point is that it is impossible to get actual, exact sizes. Any bug that is identical to their real life counterparts, which there are, I can guarantee to you that has inconsistent size. That is how wonky size in HK is if we attempted to apply realism. As I mentioned, we could even attempt to scale the lumaflies (that are treated as actual flies) and oomas (Which apparently may be jellyfishes) and get, again wildly different sizes.

"I don't agree with the stylized part excusing things- I would totally agree it does if there was any actual evidence against it, but there just isn't."

And there isn't any in favor too. Some inferences, of course, but not particularly strong ones.

"Of course you could say that the jumps feeling very floaty and even large, clumsy bosses being able to leap in the air with incredible ease, the improbable levels of architecture from even primitive societies, the constantly huge and oversized vegetation (and mushrooms) and the fact that they're, well, bugs are all stylistic choices, or ones made for the sake of gameplay, and I'm perfectly aware that it's a real possibility... but it is evidence, and it is countered by nothing, unless you wanna count the Hornet statement (which is from kickstarter, and might have been made before the lore was finalized, nevermind that it could just be an accuracy feat for her)"

Both of the first ones are a staple from many Metroidvanias and platformers, Mario and Super Metroid in particular had even floatier jumps than the ones I saw in Hollow Knight, size never was a problem for any of them, the societies of Hallownest aren't exactly what I'd call "primitive" to be honest, and even if they were, again, in fiction it is normal for that kind of thing to happen, especially in more original works (Paper Mario in particular I remember Shy Guys having comically efficient primitive technology that in no way should work even slightly in real life)

Most of my inclinations to the average size of beings is more out of there having no solid evidence to any. I could attempt to justify more the average size, focusing on the lumaflies for example, but I too don't feel strongly about the average size. I'd rather just wait some more conclusive evidence, maybe from Silksong.
 
EliminatorVenom said:
Both of the first ones are a staple from many Metroidvanias and platformers, Mario and Super Metroid in particular had even floatier jumps than the ones I saw in Hollow Knight, size never was a problem for any of them, the societies of Hallownest aren't exactly what I'd call "primitive" to be honest, and even if they were, again, in fiction it is normal for that kind of thing to happen, especially in more original works (Paper Mario in particular I remember Shy Guys having comically efficient primitive technology that in no way should work even slightly in real life)
Click to expand...
Once again, I'm the first to admit it's very flimsy evidence, but it's still evidence that has more weight than "it's just a stylistic thing" can cancel out when there are absolutely no arguments for the opposite.
 
I disagree, as if I applied that as an evidence, I could write off random Metroidvanias I find as them having very small size for the very reasons. Floaty jumps, unlikely technology and size being no impediment to agility are all characteristics of Metroidvanias. Not of small size. In fact, few bugs in real life can actually jump; some can jump really high, of course, but most can't.

If that is used as an argument, even if a secondary one, I should apply it to any and all fictional universes that have the same characteristics.

But in any case, it's not like there is much to add. I have no problem with a decision being made or of small size being used. But if the small size does stay, I will request that the Last Stag calculation isn't used (Very arbitrary and just looked it up to confirm, it isn't even a stag beetle), and potentially make a speed revision. Bugs should be way faster than below average. I'd argue Supersonic combat speed and reactions (Subsonic on the very, veeery least), but I don't think anyone would agree with me.
 
EliminatorVenom said:
I disagree, as if I applied that as an evidence, I could write off random Metroidvanias I find as them having very small size for the very reasons. Floaty jumps, unlikely technology and size being no impediment to agility are all characteristics of Metroidvanias. Not of small size. In fact, few bugs in real life can actually jump; some can jump really high, of course, but most can't.
Click to expand...
Well, those Metroidvanias have humans as protagonists, don't they? If everyone in Super Metroid was a funny bug I'm sure we'd consider her small too, unless something concrete opposed that. Of course these are all game mechanics, but sometimes games choose to justify their mechanics through story and context, and I believe this to be the case.

And yeah, I know, but these bugs have human-like legs, so they'd all probably be able to jump if they were that size.
EliminatorVenom said:
But in any case, it's not like there is much to add. I have no problem with a decision being made or of small size being ued. But if the small size does stay, I will request that the Last Stag calculation isn't used (Very arbitrary and just looked it up to confirm, it isn't even a stag beetle), and potentially make a speed revision. Bugs should be way faster than below average. I'd argue Supersonic combat speed and reactions (Subsonic on the very, veeery least), but I don't think anyone would agree with me.
Click to expand...
I agree. Personally, I'd use Marmu for the reasons I've explained already. Though, do you have any speed feats? Otherwise, the only speed rating I can see is something in the range of "Athletic Human combat speed" due to most insects having reflexes at least comparable to ours.
 
I really do agree with having a larger size, and if we can't use the stag, why use Marmu? its obvious he is based off a caterpillar, but with the current evidence there is no proof that he is, or the same size as that caterpillar, that's like saying "oh this character looks like John! they must be the same size?" scaling a heavily stylized game to real life assuming that the things in the game are supposed to be real life size, is ambitious at best.
 
It's simply because Marmu isn't stylized at all, unlike everyone else. So it's more acceptable to say that this fairly realistic-looking bug is the one of average size while all other bugs aren't to scale with their real-life counterparts due to the stylization and being bipedal or just different.
 
I really think that just because they look similar does not mean they should scale, just because Marmu is "less stylized" does NOT mean he should scale, we need more evidence then "oh he looks a lot like a bug in real life, lets just assume they are automatically the same size" again I do not think they should scale unless there is concrete evidence that they should scale, also your marmu link is broken.
 
"Well, those Metroidvanias have humans as protagonists, don't they? If everyone in Super Metroid was a funny bug I'm sure we'd consider her small too, unless something concrete opposed that."

One of my points is how most bugs of Hollow Knight really are more similar to bug-people than people. With some exceptions, they are bugs in name only.

And oh boy, do I have speed feats stored.
Many of these feats may be something of a design choice, like how they do in manga, but I personally consider them valid.

EDIT: Some enemies fire actual laser beams and beams of light, but it is impossible to react to them, so it should only scale to attack speed.
 
Considering otherwise we'd be assuming an even more stylized bug looks like a human despite there not being a true "average" size for bugs in this game, I think this is way better.
 
EliminatorVenom said:
"Well, those Metroidvanias have humans as protagonists, don't they? If everyone in Super Metroid was a funny bug I'm sure we'd consider her small too, unless something concrete opposed that."

One of my points is how most bugs of Hollow Knight really are more similar to bug-people than people. With some exceptions, they are bugs in name only.
Click to expand...
I mean, those exceptions are there, aren't they? Some bugs are literally just bugs. Of course most are evolved past that, but lore kind of addresses that too. Even without that, though, the bug people are comparable in size to actual, fairly realistic bugs.
EliminatorVenom said:
And oh boy, do I have speed feats stored.
Many of these feats may be something of a design choice, like how they do in manga, but I personally consider them valid.
Click to expand...
I'm unsure how shockwave, blur or FTE stuff translates to small size, but it's definitely worth looking into.
 
Eh, fair's fair. I still think it would be better to treat them as average sized, but I don't have any big problems with the contrary being considered. Until there is more evidence, for me at least, this can be closed.

But the speed feats really should be looked into. If we assume that their biology is more of bugs than of people (Which I don't agree for the evolved ones, they behave way too human for that), the FTE stuff may be way smaller since it heavily depends on the eye of the observer. Our eyes cannot process things below 0,25 seconds on average (I mean, we can, but only after the thing has already happened), bugs may not be able in higher (or lower, idk) intervals of time.

The supersonic stuff though I'm almost pretty sure. I know there's the whole mechanism behind it, but bullets are supersonic still. And it is not like they do it out of the blue, the Knight Crystal Heart for example looks a lot like a sonic boom. If accepted, it would double as a durability feat, as the Knight can survive hitting stuff at supersonic speeds and taking no damage, although he does shudder as if it pained him.

EDIT: Another thing, the Mothwing cloak does make the Knight blur a bit when dashing, but eh.
 
EliminatorVenom said:
Eh, fair's fair. I still think it would be better to treat them as average sized, but I don't have any big problems with the contrary being considered. Until there is more evidence, for me at least, this can be closed.

But the speed feats really should be looked into. If we assume that their biology is more of bugs than of people (Which I don't agree for the evolved ones, they behave way too human for that), the FTE stuff may be way smaller since it heavily depends on the eye of the observer. Our eyes cannot process things below 0,25 seconds on average (I mean, we can, but only after the thing has already happened), bugs may not be able in higher (or lower, idk) intervals of time.
Click to expand...
Certain bugs can actually "see faster" than us, for example flies have way better reactions than we do. But we should just use human reaction times, considering The Knight can fight three Mantis Lord at once despite them being FTE to the camera... wouldn't make sense if it was its perception speed (nevermind that it'd all be worthless if it was since the knight isn't a real bug)
EliminatorVenom said:
The supersonic stuff though I'm almost pretty sure. I know there's the whole mechanism behind it, but bullets are supersonic still. And it is not like they do it out of the blue, the Knight Crystal Heart for example looks a lot like a sonic boom. If accepted, it would double as a durability feat, as the Knight can survive hitting stuff at supersonic speeds and taking no damage, although he does shudder as if it pained him.
Click to expand...
I think they'd be better, actually, since bugs would be reacting to them in less time.
EliminatorVenom said:
EDIT: Another thing, the Mothwing cloak does make the Knight blur a bit when dashing, but eh.
Click to expand...
That one's too vague I feel, HK is hand-drawn and blurring stuff to exaggerate motion is a pretty common technique.
 
Any AP feats tho? if we keep them small size it would be cool if they at least got a cool AP upgrade to like 9-A or 8-C(considering dream feats and stuff) but anyways, yeh this can be closed
 
Wait, we should try and settle on a decision, if we should stay with our current size scaling from the Stag (which is probably wrong) or use Marmu, or someone else entirely.
 
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