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High-Godly regeneration problem

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Setsuna_tenma

Setsuna_tenma

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so currently the regen page says this for high godly regen

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after erasure from all aspects of existence, such as from history, narrative/plot, or conceptual/information destruction.

The problem is that is just mid-godly regen plus acausality. Erasure from history is just existance erasure being done across time.
 
I strongly agree with that being erased from history is not remotely comparable to being completely eradicated from all aspects of existence, including conceptually and narratively. I do not remember who added the phrase, but it should preferably be removed.
 
Yeah, being able to regenerate from physical erasure across time would also get you this regen which is no different from being erased without +time.
 
Looking at our levels we have the following:
  • Low-Godly: Physical Regen
  • Mid-Godly: Physical, Mental, and Spiritual Regen
  • High-Godly: Metaphysical? (The ability to regenerate after erasure from all aspects of existence, such as from history, narrative/plot, or conceptual/information destruction.)
I think High Godly is whatever existence is deeper than spiritual. Historical doesn't seem to fit the general trend.
 
I do agree that it shouldn't be High Godly, but i don't agree with the OP's "it's just Mid-Godly + acausality", it is not acausality, it's a stronger form of Mid-Godly.

The reason i say it is Mid Godly is because High Godly is more about coming back after getting erased on all aspects of existence whereas Mid Godly is the one that comes back after erasure of body and soul. Getting erased from history is still just getting erased body and soul after all. So it's much closer to Mid Godly than it is to High Godly.
 
I believe Getting erased from the pages of history was what Sera agreed was better than a EE + your home reality is also destroyed because that seemed like Mid-Godly + Type 8 Immortality. And she said Erased from existence and non-existence also makes no sense period.

I'm fine with it getting stronger clarifications such as Conceptual levels of EE.

Also, Mid-Godly is physical, spiritual and mentally erased.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
I do agree that it shouldn't be High Godly, but i don't agree with the OP's "it's just Mid-Godly + acausality", it is not acausality, it's a stronger form of Mid-Godly.

The reason i say it is Mid Godly is because High Godly is more about coming back after getting erased on all aspects of existence whereas Mid Godly is the one that comes back after erasure of body and soul. Getting erased from history is still just getting erased body and soul after all. So it's much closer to Mid Godly than it is to High Godly.
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Sorry to interject, but being erased from history says nothing about soul and mind being erased as well (unless that is the default assumption). As i said, even the default assumption of physical erasure from history will get you this regen. It's only low godly with acausality.

And, since this become staff only, I'm out. Bye.
 
The problem is that being erased from history is just being physically and possibly spiritually (but not necessarily so) erased to a very high degree.
 
Eganergo, you can continue to comment here if you wish.
 
Eganergo said:
but being erased from history says nothing about soul and mind being erased as well.
Click to expand...
If you were never born to begin with, why would your soul even exist? If you never started existing. It should definitely be a default assumption that erasure from history includes body and soul unless stated otherwise imo.
 
The soul recurrently exists independently from one's material existence.
 
Depends on the verse, sometimes the soul or mind exists regardless of history. Sometimes erasing someone from history isn't the same as existence erasure either. Sometimes coming back from history erasure isn't regen at all and just acausality or an ability.

I think history should get an "*" next to it, it depends on a case by case.
 
I think it can be solved with a simple distinction, erased from history=Mid-Godly, possibly High-Godly, conceptually erased High-Godly flat out. Being erased from history would obviously be above baseline Mid-Godly, since you’re gone from the records of however big said verse is, and even some, from their memories.
 
Actually what Ant said is true, souls can exist independent of the character's body. So it might easily even be low godly. So i propose a note like:

Regenerating back from erasure from history requires Low-Godly regeneration unless the level of the erasure is specified.
 
I would assume erasure from history is mid godly tbh, unless it's clarified the soul exists regardless of whether you were born

Also afaik High Godly was amended to be erasure from all levels of reality in the verse, so if the verse has nothing above time mechanically, that's what would be high godly for their case
 
But if one is erased throughout all of time, they would never have existed. Wouldn't that be the same as having been erased on a Type 3 conceptual level?

"3.Aristotelian Concept: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract Aristotelian Concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality."

Erasing someone from time would erase their concept too as that means they never existed in the first place.

Edit: I did not see this was in Staff Discussions. My apologies.
 
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Please take this post with the many grains of salt it requires as someone who doesn't debate any characters with regen in the godly's and as someone who was wholly absent for the thread that implemented this wording revision.

The problem is that is just mid-godly regen plus acausality. Erasure from history is just existance erasure being done across time.

I don't see how it's acausality. Regenerating from that stuff being gone doesn't really seem to intersect with Acausality. Acausality would have such an ability not work, or have such information not exist to be erased. It seems about as weird as saying that the narrative/plot stuff means they're Acausal in reference to the plot, or that conceptual/informational regen means that they don't have a concept or information.

I strongly agree with that being erased from history is not remotely comparable to being completely eradicated from all aspects of existence, including conceptually and narratively. I do not remember who added the phrase, but it should preferably be removed.

I'm sympathetic towards your view, but I also think that if "history" is the deepest thing that verse has it could be comparable.

Yeah, being able to regenerate from physical erasure across time would also get you this regen which is no different from being erased without +time.

Restating my caveat that I could indeed be very wrong here, but I interpreted the page as being an escalating scale. By this I mean that, for High-Godly to be granted, I'd imagine that it has to be a Mid-Godly level of destruction with history/narrative/plot/conceptual/information erasure added on top.

I think the general arguments provided here and in the rest of the thread ala "What if it's only their physical body that's erased across all of time?" could be applied to the other examples listed here. What if their soul/mind is unaffected by erasure from the narrative/plot, erasure of their concept, or destruction of their information? I could certainly conceive of those situations.

Getting erased from history is still just getting erased body and soul after all. So it's much closer to Mid Godly than it is to High Godly.

I would not be too fussed with considering it stronger Mid Godly, but again, I wasn't part of the original thread that placed those words under High Godly.

Also, Mid-Godly is physical, spiritual and mentally erased.

The page's current definition is unclear on this, and to me read like it was destruction of either the soul or mind.
 
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I strongly disagree about reality equalisation in the manner that you suggest. If a verse does not have a high enough level of reality to allow for High-Godly regeneration, we shouldn't treat it as such any more than we do with multiversal power hierarchies.
 
Conceptual/narrative/plot/informational stuff isn't really a higher level of reality, so it doesn't feel to me like there's reality equalization going on.

I take the spirit of high-godly being along the lines of 'absolutely everything about a character is erased', so if their place in history is the most fundamental information in the verse it should probably count.

Frankly I find it hard to understand why it would necessarily be below narrative/plot erasure. Conceptual/informational stuff sounds to me to be on a similar but more fundamental level, while narrative/plot stuff seems like a more meta way of describing "history" to me.
 
Agnaa said:
Frankly I find it hard to understand why it would necessarily be below narrative/plot erasure. Conceptual/informational stuff sounds to me to be on a similar but more fundamental level,
Click to expand...
Yeah it sounds similar in the sense of "it's fundamental", but when it comes to vs battle threads that kind of information is kinda necessary as it would be rather confusing for some people if we have like 7 types of high godly with them having high inconsistencies in terms of what is required to put people with those down.

Agnaa said:
while narrative/plot stuff seems like a more meta way of describing "history" to me.
Click to expand...
I actually agree with this. I never understood why we treat plot as different or more powerful than history/fate. Considering it's the same thing with the only difference being how you visualize the media.

If i erase a character from history, i changed history, but i also changed the plot of the show from a outsider's standpoint. Similarly if someone changes the plot to erase a character, from a character's point of view that's just changing history. In other words it's viewing the same thing from 2 different points of view, honestly no different from "is the glass half empty or half full?".
 
I agree with Earl regarding that we cannot count erasure from history as Low-Godly for some verses and High-Godly in others. That is a form of verse equalisation.

As far as I understand, the narrative itself is a much higher and fundamental degree of existence than time within the setting, but I am not the best person to ask. Maybe @YuriAkuto and @Ovy7 are willing to help.

I am extremely tired, distracted, and distressed at the moment though, so I cannot think properly right now, and would greatly appreciate some assistance.
 
Will answer how plot should be higher than history later; but regarding "history erasure" I think it would depend if all your actions were nulled in the process .
 
WHYNAUT said:
But if one is erased throughout all of time, they would never have existed. Wouldn't that be the same as having been erased on a Type 3 conceptual level?

"3.Aristotelian Concept: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract Aristotelian Concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality."

Erasing someone from time would erase their concept too as that means they never existed in the first place.

Edit: I did not see this was in Staff Discussions. My apologies.
Click to expand...
So what about this?
 
WHYNAUT said:
But if one is erased throughout all of time, they would never have existed. Wouldn't that be the same as having been erased on a Type 3 conceptual level?

"3.Aristotelian Concept: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract Aristotelian Concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality."

Erasing someone from time would erase their concept too as that means they never existed in the first place.

Edit: I did not see this was in Staff Discussions. My apologies.
Click to expand...
I mean using this description doesn't that mean that any regular erasure will do the job? It doesn't even require erasure from history, as long as you EE the only object (the person), that means all objects of said concept are destroyed meaning the concept is destroyed too.

So im not sure how i feel about saying that any EE ever is conceptual EE. It just doesn't cut it.
 
@Setsuna_tenma

So did you read my reasoning or...? One accomplishes the other. That's literally what happens if we go by the conceptual manipulation page's explanation.

@Firephoenixearl

Well I am not entirely sure, since the page doesn't elaborate further on that.

But if someone is simply erased in the present, they still existed and people would still be able to recognize and remember them. They will have left a mark on existence even if they themselves no longer exist.

On the other hand if they were destroyed at a conceptual level, no trace would remain of them. The very idea of them is gone and there should be no marks on existence of them.

Being erased from time accomplishes the same effect as the latter.
 
I do understand your point, the issue is the way the page worded it means that any EE is conceptual if used on an individual because it destroys the only object of said concept. So i am more criticizing the wording on the page rather than your argument.

And what you mentioned is "no trace is left of them". The line between conceptual and "erased from memories" can be hard to tell sometimes but still there. What you mentioned is just the side effect of being erased from history, which is that all memories get erased too.
 
WHYNAUT said:
On the other hand if they were destroyed at a conceptual level, no trace would remain of them. The very idea of them is gone and there should be no marks on existence of them.

Being erased from time accomplishes the same effect as the latter.
Click to expand...
Depends on the phylosophy you use, like Plato's concepts are unbound by time and reality, so the person being erased from existance wouldn't affect them
 
@Firephoenixearl

I see.

Not just memories, all of their actions would be erased too and as a consequence any impact they may have had on existence.

@Overlord775

This is true, but the default is Type 3. There's very few verses where the concepts of individuals are explicitly Type 2.
 
WHYNAUT said:
Not just memories, all of their actions would be erased too and as a consequence any impact they may have had on existence.
Click to expand...
Obviously, that is basic time paradoxing people. Getting erased from history obviously would mean that, but having never made an impact doesn't have any relation to the concept.
 
Well if the writer is trying to be a bit more faithful to concepts being a fundamental part of reality it should. If the very concept of something doesn't exist, why should it have any effect on reality?

If the concept of colours doesn't exist, then there's no logical reason for paint to exist.

The same goes for the concept of a person being erased.
 
You got the wrong idea.

Erasure of the concept does mean everything they did is also yeeted. However the opposite is not necessarily true.
 
Wait let me get an example of something I believe is no different from other forms baseline High-Godly regeneration.

Gorgons in Destiny can retroactively erase people across the Vault of Glass (A realm ruled by the Vex) and this erasure even extends outside of the Vault of Glass. Memories and anything that points towards a person's existence are gone after this. Now Guardians normally die permanently from this erasure, which isn't surprising since their regeneration is only Low-Godly. But Sungsingers, a specific kind of Guardian, can regenerate from even this.

To list what Gorgons erase:

  • Body
  • Mind
  • Soul
  • Information
  • Essence

And as a result of all these things being erased a person's concept should be gone too (note that I am not claiming the erasure itself erases their concept).

And yet Sungsingers can still regenerate. How can this be anything other than High-Godly?
 
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