High 2-A Requirements

[Agnaa]

This post basically poses two questions. Is perceiving an infinite multiverse as fiction justification for High 2-A, and is being superior to an infinite multiverse justification for High 2-A?

Tiering System says: High Multiverse level+: Characters who are 5-dimensional, and/or can destroy and/or create 5-dimensional space-time constructs of a not insignificant size. Characters who can destroy and/or create an uncountably infinite numbers of universes may potentially also be assigned this tier, as their geometrical 5-D size can be higher than 0.

I've seen quite a handful of High 2-As described as having that rating due to seeing an infinite multiverse as fiction. I'd argue that seeing something as fiction is not a feat of AP, but a feat of haxx. There are some characters here who by their metafictional nature see their reality as fiction, and can plot manip as if it were such, but aren't considered higher-dimensional entities because of this.

Onto the broader topic of profiles that are High 2-A based o being superior to infinite universes. My problem with these is that in order for a series of 4-D universes to collectively be 5-Dimensional, there has to be uncountably infinitely many of them, as opposed to countably infinitely many or countably finitely many.

I'm not familiar with many of the verses talked about here, but I doubt that they specify having an uncountably infinite multiverse; they'd likely just say "infinite".

One solution is that since "superior" isn't defined, if we define "superior" as "having a larger cardinality", then all of those beings would be 5-D for being superior, but the problem with that is that using cardinality, once we hit infinite sets everything is either the same or infinitely larger than anything else. So every 4-D, 5-D, 6-D, etc being would have the exact same AP, but each would be infinitely stronger than the dimension below, but a lot of the verses linked here have 5-D characters beating or being stronger than one another. There would be no above baseline and characters losing/beating others of the same dimensionality would be PIS, which is why I think this is a bad solution.

Note that this isn't an attempt to revise the tiering system. There are still tos of characters who legitimately have High 2-A under the current definition.

tl;dr Since being High 2-A requires uncountably infinite 4-D universes created/destroyed and most verses don't specify that, quite a few characters may need to be downgraded to 2-A.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

???

 

[RapidMotorcycle19]

???

 

[Wokistan]

Ur dragon's high 2A comes from scaling to the eldrazi, which are 5 dimensional in their true form. Not what you described. It's late where I am and I'm tired so I'm not sticking around, but that one has different reasons than what you make it seem like is the sole reason for that tier. Several Digimon at high 2A with 2A low all are similar.

 

[TheSandman31]

Well, God doesnt just "see" evrything as fiction, everything was literally described as nothing but a random idea floating in Gods divine imagination

 

[Jinsye]

Seeing 4-dimensions as fiction basically means you transcend them in the way we transcend drawings on a piece of paper, which basically means 1 dimension higher. So High 2-A

 

[Ultima_Reality]

What exactly are you suggesting

 

[Jinsye]

What exactly are you suggesting

I think basically all chars that get their higher-dimensional stats for percieving lower-dimensions as fiction be downgraded.

Plus all the chars that get High 2-A via being infinitely superior to infinite dimensions get downgraded too.

 

[Endless_Astrograph_Sorcerer]

This seems like it ties into a general issue with 'sees reality as fiction' statements being troublesome. There's a diff between vaguely seeing reality as fiction and seeing reality as spatially flat for example. I'm not going to comment on any specific profiles in OP as I haven't done more than skim them. Outside of that, if a couple statements about seeing reality as fiction were the difference between a profile reading 2-A vs High 2-A, that would be questionable in absence of other context. As far as directly identifying an uncountably infinite multiversal feat in fiction via statement or cosmology, one thing that's occurred to me would be looking for evidence of each universe creating an infinite number of diverging timelines, somehow?

 

[Agnaa]

@Matthew Schroeder @RapidMotorcycle19 Finite 4-D universes would be size 0 in 5 dimensions. Countably infinite 4-D universes would be size 0 in 5 dimensions. Uncountably infinite 5-D universes would be size > 0 in 5 dimensions. Only the latter of those three is described as High 2-A per the current definition. (EDIT: To clarify, this means that even countably infinite universes isn't enough to go up a dimension, you need to explicitly have uncountably infinite)

@Wokistan Ur dragon scales to the unbound eldrazi titans? I missed that since the profile didn't explicitly state that, mb. I'll edit him out of the post.

@TheSandman31 But should that count as being 1 dimension above "everything"? I'm not quite sure if 1 dimension above is a good stopping point for characters like that. i.e. why are they not considered as having the same number of dimensions but still being more powerful than everything in that verse?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This is definitely a no-no, then.

Seeing space-time structures as fiction means you perceive them not in the same way you see a drawing on a paper, but in the same way you perceive a story in a book: As a non-physical abstraction which has no Length, Width or Height to be said to be related to dimensions

If anything, seeing realities and similar structures as fiction should be higher than simply being of a higher-dimensional in relation to a universe / multiverse

 

[Agnaa]

Seeing 4-dimensions as fiction basically means you transcend them in the way we transcend drawings on a piece of paper, which basically means 1 dimension higher. So High 2-A

I don't think that statement's an inherently true fact, even though it does make for a useful comparison. We can conceive of characters which are higher dimensional but don't perceive lower dimensions as fiction, and we can conceive of characters which perceive the universe they're in as fiction but aren't higher dimensional.

Since it isn't necessarily true, I don't think we should hold it as necessarily true for putting characters up tiers.

 

[Agnaa]

This is definitely a no-no, then.

Seeing space-time structures as fiction means you perceive them not in the same way you see a drawing on a paper, but in the same way you perceive a story in a book: As a non-physical abstraction which has no Length, Width or Height to be said to be related to dimensions

If anything, seeing realities and similar structures as fiction should be higher than simply being of a higher-dimensional in relation to a universe / multiverse

While we agree that perceiving something as fiction makes you superior to it, as it's witnessed as a non-physical abstraction, that's exactly why I think it doesn't make you dimensionally-superior to characters you perceive as fiction, it makes you superior in a different way than dimensions. Perhaps through a combination of hax and being superior to all characters in that dimension that don't perceive baseline characters in that dimension as fiction.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It is still a feat of Transcendence which fits into our Tiering System, even if it is higher and on a completely different level than simply having an additional dimension in relation to lower beings

 

[Agnaa]

The problem is that not all transcendence is equal, and so I'd hesitate to say that dimensional and fiction-reality transcendence is the same thing. Even if those characters are transcendent over most 2-A beings, they'd still be below High 2-A as they haven't actually shown a 5-dimensional feat.

I think it's okay for some characters to be transcendent over others in the tier, like YHVH is over most of 2-A right now.

I'm open to changing my mind on this, but right now I'm not convinced that seeing a reality as fiction should count as a dimensional-transcendence (uncountably infinite), rather than just a standard countably-infinite one.

Slightly related, but treating dimensional transcendence and reality-fiction transcendence the same seems like it would run into trouble once you reach High 1-B+

 

[Antvasima]

We are most likely not going to change our standards for this, but you can ask Azathoth and DarkLK to comment here if you wish.

 

[Agnaa]

Like I said, I'm not asking to change the standards, but it seems like the standards as outlined on the tiering system page aren't being properly applied. People are confusing countably infinite for uncountably infinite. I don't think that High 2-A can be justified for being superior to an infinite 4-D multiverse given how the guidelines are written.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am too tired and busy to be able to spend much time on this.

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

Edit:

This seems like it ties into a general issue with 'sees reality as fiction' statements being troublesome. There's a diff between vaguely seeing reality as fiction and seeing reality as spatially flat for example. I'm not going to comment on any specific profiles in OP as I haven't done more than skim them. Outside of that, if a couple statements about seeing reality as fiction were the difference between a profile reading 2-A vs High 2-A, that would be questionable in absence of other context. As far as directly identifying an uncountably infinite multiversal feat in fiction via statement or cosmology, one thing that's occurred to me would be looking for evidence of each universe creating an infinite number of diverging timelines, somehow?

The problem with using infinite diverging timelines in each universe to try to get uncountable infinity, is that isn't how infinities work. Countable infinity x countable infinity isn't uncountable infinity, it's still countable infinity.

I'm not sure if this is accurate, but I think of it as the difference between the infinity being continuous and being discrete. Countable infinities take steps of a finite size between each of their numbers, like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... onto infinity. While uncountable infinities are every single real number over a certain range, like every number between 1 and 2.

If you can go along and count the universes, it's countably infinite. If you go along and count the universes, but always miss some when counting, it's uncountably infinite.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the issue of being of a higher order of reality due to perceiving a multiverse as fiction, is DarkLK's and Azathoth's area, whereas countable and uncountable infinities is DontTalkDT's. Perhaps you could ask them to comment here?

 

[Agnaa]

Shouldn't some Medaka Box characters, along with SCP-2786 be a higher order of reality due to perceiving the realities they're in as fiction then? I assumed that they weren't since they haven't shown feats on that scale, but that characters such as Annoying Dog were considered a higher order of reality due to creating one which they see as fiction.

I have already asked DarkLK to look, but I assumed that Azathoth would still be busy with RL stuff. I'll ask DontTalkDT as well, thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the Medaka Box character Ajimu Najimi regularly breaks the 4th wall, but that is not the same thing as genuinely transcending an entire continuum, as is common in the Umineko franchise.

 

[Agnaa]

I was under the impression that Ajimu transcended their reality?

Ajimu calls everyone ink on paper, everything that happens was said to be just her imagination and calls the world a manga.

It also seemed like other Medaka Box characters had similar feats/statements.

2786 explicitly considers the reality they're in as indistinguishable from movies/video games which they've also resided in.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that these were seen as them legitimately seeing that reality as fiction, but since they hadn't demonstrated the AP to destroy that reality, it was only applicable as hax.

 

[Antvasima]

As far as I remember, Najimi simply stated that she knew that she was in a manga. She did not demonstrate the ability to absolutely control it like an author, as the Umineko characters can.

 

[DontTalkDT]

As others said, the difference between the likes of Ajimu and those that we rank as higher due to "seeing" reality as fiction is the degree of control.

What is meant with "seeing" in the latter case is "to have a relationship with reality resembling the relationship a normal human has with fiction".

So just metafictional awareness doesn't cut it.


In regards to characters being High 2-A due to being superior to infinite multiverses: If this is legitimate depends on what superior means. Just being more powerful than a 2-A character shouldn't justify that.

On the other hand being superior, in a fashion that qualitatively can be said to have a similar power gap between next and prior level as a dimension more, can qualify. The prime example for that would be the before aforementioned reality-fiction difference, but other kinds of higher planes of existence are common as well (Like for example if the multiverse is an apple on an tree of a higher plane).

Of course none of this is a strict mathematical equivalence or anything. It's just granting a reasonable amount of leeway on what can qualify, because it would be impracticle to obstinately disregard the power of any fictions, just because they don't meet our vocabulary.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the input.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Seeing reality as fiction in a metafictional manner can possibly rank you as Higher-Dimensional, however, it all depends on the context. The ending of the manga Devilman Lady has the character be ascended to a Higher-Dimension, which turns out to be our world, and she finds her own manga in a store.

Ajimu does not fit any requirement, though.

 

[Agnaa]

Ahh, if there's some degree of leeway on "superior" to meet our vocabulary, then I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough on the pages listed to tell if they have a good enough example of "superior", so I'll trust those who made the revisions and assume they're right.

If no-one else has anything this thread is probably good to be closed then. Thanks for the input everyone.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

how would characters like the player(minecraft) relate to this, end game statements litiraly state that their real self dreams the timelines where the game takes plaxe


or in doki doki, where the player sees both monika and the game as spatialy flat

 

[Agnaa]

I believe the player (minecraft) already takes this into account, for its 2-C possibly 2-B key, for dreaming and creating 3-1000+ infinite space-time continuums. This isn't 2-A or High 2-A due to only dreaming a finite number of these continuums.

I don't think "the player" as an ingame force in DDLC is ever stated as seeing the game as spatially flat.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

For the first,"Well, God doesnt just "see" evrything as fiction, everything was literally described as nothing but a random idea floating in Gods divine imagination"

This aplies here too, every reality he percieves during the game is a dream or an idea, he is stated to create realities with his immagination, and is described to having a life in reality (heavly hinted to be a real life person like us)


for the second, I am pretty sure that both the game being a dating sim is directly noted, and the fact that the actual player is playing in the real world is the whole point of monikas love of him. Plus the player was beyond being affected by all of the games and monikas actions (the acatual one, the avatar was affected)

 

[Agnaa]

Yes but the number of things that he perceives as fiction is a finite number of infinite spacetime continuums, putting the player from minecraft at 2-C possibly 2-B.

Actually, given the leeway for superior for perceiving something as a dream, perhaps the player should be considered infinitely transcendent, and thus given a rating of 2-A, but nothing above that.

Yes, Monika does imply realization that she's 2D, but there's a difference between the real life human you sitting in front of a computer screen, and what avatar the game provides for you. "The Player" as a canon entity within DDLC with no dialogue is superior to Monika and Natsuki, but does not have any statements of perceiving the DDLC reality as fiction, nor of transcending/dreaming/creating it. So we can only treat it as an entity above Monika.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That was what i was thinking, a possible 2-A upgrade will be done.


I am pretty sure she talks about the world "you" are in. will look it up

 

[Agnaa]

Monika does refer to the real world, but I think giving an upgrade based on fourth-wall breaking statements is way too vague. We don't have confirmation or any statement that the player holds any power above "slightly better than Monika", so we can't give the player that power.

EDIT: This contrasts with the player from minecraft who has the explicit statement of having dreamed up a certain number of realities, so we give that avatar that level of power.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

fair enough

 

[Antvasima]

Since the question has been answered, is there anything left to do here, or should we close this thread?

 

[Agnaa]

Only weird High 2-A thing left is The Player from SCP Containment Breach who's possibly High 2-A for a feat below YHVH.

DontTalk said while destroying an infinite collection of infinite multiverses wouldn't justify High 2-A, he's fine with the "Possibly High 2-A" with that, but a High 2-A thread with The Player has been derailed over it.

If we're fine with leaving the player at that, the thread's good to close.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am not familiar with the character, but it is probably best if you start an SCP revision thread for that instead, so I suppose that I will close this one.