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- Thread starter
- #41
Wait a minute. VC your own mother- wouldn't you-
nvm.
Anyway someone close this
nvm.
Anyway someone close this
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Heroes Grand Priest vs Darkrai
- Thread starter Zenkaibattery1
- Start date
- Status
Rose_of_Ragnarok
He/Him- 1,407
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Lmao, putting characters from verses that Cal hate against characters from his favorite verses is a big mistake lol
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It's not like you can 'trust' Darkrai's profile either, it's a composite profile using various wildly different Darkrai, meaning you can't even discern his fighting style, intellect, etc. To add further, every Darkrai has displayed a unique method of using Dark Void.
Games Darkrai = Dark Void from below
Anime Darkrai = Dark Void spheres that induce sleep, can be fired as a barrage
PMD Darkrai = Invisible sleep hax, puts opponent to sleep w/o visual basis
I wouldn't be sure on PokePark Dark Void, but point is that Darkrais tend to vary greatly in how they utilise Dark Void and approach battle. They also vary in alignment (good/neutral/evil) and intelligence (Movie Darkrai was generally intelligent but not particularly cunning, PMD Darkrai was highly intelligent, cunning and underhanded and so on).
It also doesn't help that pretty much every medium of Pokemon to memory (The games, the anime, I think the manga, etc) tends to show that Pokemon only learn or use up to four moves at a time. It isn't just some game mechanic, it's their 'fighting style'. So what moves would Darkrai even have access to?
Basically, we're forced to treat Darkrai like he's a composite of every Darkrai that can use every Darkrai move and every Darkrai ability against this singular character, due to how vaguely established 'species' pages are.
We're using his highest stats, all of his moves, all of his abilities, all his powers, all his intelligences, etc into a composite against a non-composite all due to how vague a species profile is.
Overall, it's not fair to claim DBH profiles shouldn't be 'trusted' when we are literally using the most powerful, skilled and intelligent Darkrai across the entire Pokemon franchise.
Games Darkrai = Dark Void from below
Anime Darkrai = Dark Void spheres that induce sleep, can be fired as a barrage
PMD Darkrai = Invisible sleep hax, puts opponent to sleep w/o visual basis
I wouldn't be sure on PokePark Dark Void, but point is that Darkrais tend to vary greatly in how they utilise Dark Void and approach battle. They also vary in alignment (good/neutral/evil) and intelligence (Movie Darkrai was generally intelligent but not particularly cunning, PMD Darkrai was highly intelligent, cunning and underhanded and so on).
It also doesn't help that pretty much every medium of Pokemon to memory (The games, the anime, I think the manga, etc) tends to show that Pokemon only learn or use up to four moves at a time. It isn't just some game mechanic, it's their 'fighting style'. So what moves would Darkrai even have access to?
Basically, we're forced to treat Darkrai like he's a composite of every Darkrai that can use every Darkrai move and every Darkrai ability against this singular character, due to how vaguely established 'species' pages are.
We're using his highest stats, all of his moves, all of his abilities, all his powers, all his intelligences, etc into a composite against a non-composite all due to how vague a species profile is.
Overall, it's not fair to claim DBH profiles shouldn't be 'trusted' when we are literally using the most powerful, skilled and intelligent Darkrai across the entire Pokemon franchise.
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GP for practically everyone's reasons above.
Rose_of_Ragnarok
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GP FRA if I forgot to vote and also only if this isn't a stomp.
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Few things. Not voting yet, but some of the above arguments are very skeptical.
>Sleep hax resistance.
Even if GP has this (Cal contests this but whatev), just how good is the resistance? You know, instead of just saying "meh its strong resistance, it'll work" ? Dialga and Palkia both needed barriers to defend against DV, so his sleep hax is already > both of the former.
>4 move limit.
Big no. We don't just restrict Pokemon to 4 moves here, that is how its always been done and how it is done now. It IS a game mechanic when we have been blatantly shown Pokemon can use more than 4 moves before. So Darkrai has more than 4 of his moves here with him.
>Overall, it's not fair to claim DBH profiles shouldn't be 'trusted' when we are literally using the most powerful, skilled and intelligent Darkrai across the entire Pokemon franchise
The "its not fair" argument isn't gonna fly here. DB isnt Pokemon and doesn't work the same way as it. We allow this for Darkrai because Pokemon's canonically composite. You can continually disagree with this all you want, its meaningless unless you get a CRT through and until you do, stop complaining about it. And you've been told this on several CRTs with this topic anyway.
>Sleep hax resistance.
Even if GP has this (Cal contests this but whatev), just how good is the resistance? You know, instead of just saying "meh its strong resistance, it'll work" ? Dialga and Palkia both needed barriers to defend against DV, so his sleep hax is already > both of the former.
>4 move limit.
Big no. We don't just restrict Pokemon to 4 moves here, that is how its always been done and how it is done now. It IS a game mechanic when we have been blatantly shown Pokemon can use more than 4 moves before. So Darkrai has more than 4 of his moves here with him.
>Overall, it's not fair to claim DBH profiles shouldn't be 'trusted' when we are literally using the most powerful, skilled and intelligent Darkrai across the entire Pokemon franchise
The "its not fair" argument isn't gonna fly here. DB isnt Pokemon and doesn't work the same way as it. We allow this for Darkrai because Pokemon's canonically composite. You can continually disagree with this all you want, its meaningless unless you get a CRT through and until you do, stop complaining about it. And you've been told this on several CRTs with this topic anyway.
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Big no. We don't just restrict Pokemon to 4 moves here, that is how its always been done and how it is done now. It IS a game mechanic when we have been blatantly shown Pokemon can use more than 4 moves before. So Darkrai has more than 4 of his moves here with him.
Outside of the OS anime, where is the 4-move rule contradicted? I don't really read the manga, so does it happen there?
The "its not fair" argument isn't gonna fly here. DB isnt Pokemon and doesn't work the same way as it.
They are similar enough.
We allow this for Darkrai because Pokemon's canonically composite.
All of these Darkrai are completely different personalities that use their abilities differently and approach battles in different manners.
Movie Darkrai is good, prioritising protecting a city over its own life.
Anime Darkrai is generally wild or tamed, the only Darkrai in the anime with battle experience is Tobias' Darkrai, so we would have to factor that Darkrai being far less effective alone.
PokePark Darkrai wants to merge two universes together.
PMD Darkrai is more than willing to use its hax to force others to commit suicide and destroy spacetime, with the most advanced applications of its abilities.
All of the major Darkrai have different powers, abilities, personalities and so on. 'composite' Darkrai can't even logically exist due to how varying they are. None of these function based on game mechanics, they function based on their own personal approaches to combat and morality.
and until you do, stop complaining about it. And you've been told this on several CRTs with this topic anyway.
I don't know why you are bringing this up. Cal claimed the DBH profiles can't be trusted, so I pointed out that Darkrai's profile being composite makes it overly vague. How does this Darkrai fight? How does it think, morally? Has it been trained? What is its general opinion and stance on dealing with external entities?
Seriously, this argument is silly. Are you going to tell me that Origins Mewtwo and Anime Mewtwo are the exact same, despite their ridiculous gap in intellect and philosophy?
This is why species profiles never work, not for sapient lifeforms. Each Darkrai is its own character with its own life and opinions, and you try to force them into one Darkrai despite their contradictory and opposing views and styles.
So, yeah. I have every right to point out that composite Darkrai is overly vague when another person tries to claim Grand Priest's profile is 'untrustworthy'.
We KNOW what GP can do. We KNOW how he thinks and acts and we KNOW how he fights in DBH. We don't know a thing about this mysterious composite Darkrai. You can claim he will go for sleep hax, but which variant of his sleep hax will he use? If it's the spheres, GP dodges easily. If it's the grounded void, GP can fly above it but if it's the invisible sleep hax that PMD Darkrai has, or the illusion hax that PMD Darkrai has then maybe it wins.
Issue is, none of the other Darkrai have this type of hax or its applications. ONLY PMD Darkrai has, or would, use this variant of its hax and we have no idea how the others would utilise it. So nobody here can even claim that this is Darkrai's first move.
Outside of the OS anime, where is the 4-move rule contradicted? I don't really read the manga, so does it happen there?
The "its not fair" argument isn't gonna fly here. DB isnt Pokemon and doesn't work the same way as it.
They are similar enough.
We allow this for Darkrai because Pokemon's canonically composite.
All of these Darkrai are completely different personalities that use their abilities differently and approach battles in different manners.
Movie Darkrai is good, prioritising protecting a city over its own life.
Anime Darkrai is generally wild or tamed, the only Darkrai in the anime with battle experience is Tobias' Darkrai, so we would have to factor that Darkrai being far less effective alone.
PokePark Darkrai wants to merge two universes together.
PMD Darkrai is more than willing to use its hax to force others to commit suicide and destroy spacetime, with the most advanced applications of its abilities.
All of the major Darkrai have different powers, abilities, personalities and so on. 'composite' Darkrai can't even logically exist due to how varying they are. None of these function based on game mechanics, they function based on their own personal approaches to combat and morality.
and until you do, stop complaining about it. And you've been told this on several CRTs with this topic anyway.
I don't know why you are bringing this up. Cal claimed the DBH profiles can't be trusted, so I pointed out that Darkrai's profile being composite makes it overly vague. How does this Darkrai fight? How does it think, morally? Has it been trained? What is its general opinion and stance on dealing with external entities?
Seriously, this argument is silly. Are you going to tell me that Origins Mewtwo and Anime Mewtwo are the exact same, despite their ridiculous gap in intellect and philosophy?
This is why species profiles never work, not for sapient lifeforms. Each Darkrai is its own character with its own life and opinions, and you try to force them into one Darkrai despite their contradictory and opposing views and styles.
So, yeah. I have every right to point out that composite Darkrai is overly vague when another person tries to claim Grand Priest's profile is 'untrustworthy'.
We KNOW what GP can do. We KNOW how he thinks and acts and we KNOW how he fights in DBH. We don't know a thing about this mysterious composite Darkrai. You can claim he will go for sleep hax, but which variant of his sleep hax will he use? If it's the spheres, GP dodges easily. If it's the grounded void, GP can fly above it but if it's the invisible sleep hax that PMD Darkrai has, or the illusion hax that PMD Darkrai has then maybe it wins.
Issue is, none of the other Darkrai have this type of hax or its applications. ONLY PMD Darkrai has, or would, use this variant of its hax and we have no idea how the others would utilise it. So nobody here can even claim that this is Darkrai's first move.
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Just gonna point out that Darkrai was able to put both Palkia and Dialga to sleep who are both 4D and also has Type 3 Self-Sustenance
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Okay well, gonna be real with my thoughts here.
All the comments here with multiple kudos supporting DBZ or opposing Pokémon is just ridiculous. DBZ profiles are quite messy even if said resistances are supposedly canon, cause they're still rather vague. Plus there's the NLF. I also HATE arguments trying to take advantage of limitations by game mechanics, cause we've established already to not argue based on implementing such except perhaps for TMs or HMs, which need to be specified, anyways.
If we are talking possible composite DBZ profiles being used here, then those comments might make more sense.
All the comments here with multiple kudos supporting DBZ or opposing Pokémon is just ridiculous. DBZ profiles are quite messy even if said resistances are supposedly canon, cause they're still rather vague. Plus there's the NLF. I also HATE arguments trying to take advantage of limitations by game mechanics, cause we've established already to not argue based on implementing such except perhaps for TMs or HMs, which need to be specified, anyways.
If we are talking possible composite DBZ profiles being used here, then those comments might make more sense.
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Yes, it may give sleep hax resistance. Most of the legendaries and gods in Pokemon don't have resistance to it.
I'm personally not seeing a good enough argument for GP resisting sleep hax, although the possibility exists.
I think GP wins due to his autonomous reflexes, senses and vastly superior skill, though. He has plenty of powers and abilities that enable him to attack Darkrai from a range, and I have reason to believe GP is a much higher AP due to DBH's 2-B scaling chain versus Darkrai being erased against Dialga and Palkia's clash.
I'm personally not seeing a good enough argument for GP resisting sleep hax, although the possibility exists.
I think GP wins due to his autonomous reflexes, senses and vastly superior skill, though. He has plenty of powers and abilities that enable him to attack Darkrai from a range, and I have reason to believe GP is a much higher AP due to DBH's 2-B scaling chain versus Darkrai being erased against Dialga and Palkia's clash.
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I can be fine with that last paragraph being the presented and accepted argument, even if I don't necessarily side with it.
Rose_of_Ragnarok
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I think you meant DBH, not DBZ.Dragopentling said:
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DBZ profiles are quite messy even if said resistances are supposedly canon, cause they're still rather vague.
I feel you could say this for almost every profile, regarding resistances and their explanations.
I also HATE arguments trying to take advantage of limitations by game mechanics, cause we've established already to not argue based on implementing such except perhaps for TMs or HMs,
I'm not taking advantage of it, I'm pointing out that it's the case in multiple mediums outside of the games and it's difficult to discern which moves Darkrai would be using. Even if you claimed it could use every single move in its learnset, it's difficult to say which moves it would use IC.
I'm basically saying, composite Darkrai makes it difficult due to the number of moves and abilities that different Darkrai have utilised over canons, and a limited set of moves used by one pokemon is pretty common in the franchise. Even the anime adheres to this by limiting Pikachu to four moves at a time.
So it's like, yeah they might logically have access to all these moves but it seems that pokemon generally stick to only a few, up to several, moves that they prefer at a time. So which moves would this Darkrai be using besides Dark Void?
If we are talking possible composite DBZ profiles being used here, then those comments might make more sense.
No, I'm just criticising Cal's claim that GP's profile should be considered untrustworthy, when Darkrai's profile is already composite and vague to argue due to its varying characters across universes, battle strategy, etc.
We can easily say what GP will do, but the best I can muster up for Darkrai is: It will probably use one of the several variations of Dark Void as a first move but the question of which variant is a hard unknown.
There is no 'character' or 'strategy' that a composite Darkrai would have. It's not the composite of a character, it's the composite of an entire SPECIES.
I feel you could say this for almost every profile, regarding resistances and their explanations.
I also HATE arguments trying to take advantage of limitations by game mechanics, cause we've established already to not argue based on implementing such except perhaps for TMs or HMs,
I'm not taking advantage of it, I'm pointing out that it's the case in multiple mediums outside of the games and it's difficult to discern which moves Darkrai would be using. Even if you claimed it could use every single move in its learnset, it's difficult to say which moves it would use IC.
I'm basically saying, composite Darkrai makes it difficult due to the number of moves and abilities that different Darkrai have utilised over canons, and a limited set of moves used by one pokemon is pretty common in the franchise. Even the anime adheres to this by limiting Pikachu to four moves at a time.
So it's like, yeah they might logically have access to all these moves but it seems that pokemon generally stick to only a few, up to several, moves that they prefer at a time. So which moves would this Darkrai be using besides Dark Void?
If we are talking possible composite DBZ profiles being used here, then those comments might make more sense.
No, I'm just criticising Cal's claim that GP's profile should be considered untrustworthy, when Darkrai's profile is already composite and vague to argue due to its varying characters across universes, battle strategy, etc.
We can easily say what GP will do, but the best I can muster up for Darkrai is: It will probably use one of the several variations of Dark Void as a first move but the question of which variant is a hard unknown.
There is no 'character' or 'strategy' that a composite Darkrai would have. It's not the composite of a character, it's the composite of an entire SPECIES.
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Dialga and Palkia's resistance is already 4-D on its own, and sleep hax is cut from the same cloth as mind hax IIRC. A single member of the CT > all 3 of the Lake Trio, whos mind hax is also 4-D.
Darkrai's sleep hax >>>> 2 of the CT who are each >>>>> all of the lake trio, who are individually 4-D. If GP's resistance isn't above this, sleep hax is working. So, again, how good is GP's resistance?
Darkrai's sleep hax >>>> 2 of the CT who are each >>>>> all of the lake trio, who are individually 4-D. If GP's resistance isn't above this, sleep hax is working. So, again, how good is GP's resistance?
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Ultra Instinct works when a character is sleeping yes, but not when they're forced to sleep. Same case with mindhax. Even then, Darkrai's passive ability Bad Dreams causes the opponent to have violent nightmares which would certainly override UI.
Also worth mentioning that Darkrai has the time tripper ability which passively gives it a x2 speed amp. If they both need to get off a single hit to win, it's in Darkrai's favour to do so.
Also worth mentioning that Darkrai has the time tripper ability which passively gives it a x2 speed amp. If they both need to get off a single hit to win, it's in Darkrai's favour to do so.
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"Passive Probability Manipulation (The Grand Priests Miracle CI is constantly at the highest rating, making it so all his attacks have the highest probability of landing on his opponent and that his opponents abilities will always fail to land on him),"GyroNutz said:
Dark Void doesn't have 100% accuracy, so I'm pretty sure the Grand Priest can dodge all of them and strike Darkrai.
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Again, the game mechanics littered in that example is insane.
I'll take back the vague statement I made before because my deliciousness made me talk without speaking, but that statement is as true as it gets.
I'll take back the vague statement I made before because my deliciousness made me talk without speaking, but that statement is as true as it gets.
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Explain how one is even remotely the same as the other.
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They absolutely dont Dragomer. Plus, Dark Void in the anime can split into dozens of projectiles and considering Dialga and Palkia actively needed barriers to stop it, rather than just dodge it, that backs us up more that the "Accuracy" point
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I assume you refer to the probability manipulation I just brought up?
In regards to that, I don't have as much experience with DBH and its mechanics as I would prefer, but the language in its explanation seems to indicate it's specific to the Grand Priest so it should have some specific application to him, rather than pure game mechanics (I'd guess the closest comparison on Darkrai's side would be its Bad Dreams ability).
Even ignoring that, GP is a master of Ultra Instinct, so we can expect him to dodge and deflect any attack that Darkrai uses on him. He has non-physical interaction as well, so I assume he can deflect Dark Void spheres.
The issue is when Dark Void procs, would a singular touch cause him to go to sleep, or does it need to 'expand' or 'explode' first?
Regardless, he's probably going to opt for dodging and attacking if he can help it.
As for Time Tripper, GP has Statistics Reduction and Teleportation as well as a degree of Power Null (can negate flight). Combined with Ultra Instinct, skill and experience and I don't think it's far-fetched for him to keep his wits as he fights someone twice his speed.
Out of curiosity, would resistance to Mind Manipulation function for Sleep Manipulation? I imagine there is a distinction, but some overlap may help GP here.
In regards to that, I don't have as much experience with DBH and its mechanics as I would prefer, but the language in its explanation seems to indicate it's specific to the Grand Priest so it should have some specific application to him, rather than pure game mechanics (I'd guess the closest comparison on Darkrai's side would be its Bad Dreams ability).
Even ignoring that, GP is a master of Ultra Instinct, so we can expect him to dodge and deflect any attack that Darkrai uses on him. He has non-physical interaction as well, so I assume he can deflect Dark Void spheres.
The issue is when Dark Void procs, would a singular touch cause him to go to sleep, or does it need to 'expand' or 'explode' first?
Regardless, he's probably going to opt for dodging and attacking if he can help it.
As for Time Tripper, GP has Statistics Reduction and Teleportation as well as a degree of Power Null (can negate flight). Combined with Ultra Instinct, skill and experience and I don't think it's far-fetched for him to keep his wits as he fights someone twice his speed.
Out of curiosity, would resistance to Mind Manipulation function for Sleep Manipulation? I imagine there is a distinction, but some overlap may help GP here.
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Dialga and Palkia are much larger than Darkrai and, I don't think, have the reflexes or instincts of Ultra Instinct.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
I'm ASSUMING there is no such thing as being faster or slower when you are infinite speed and fighting someone with infinite speed, if this is the case then Dialga and Palkia are at a definite disadvantage when dodging Darkrai due to their giant bodies making it easier to strike them.
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Ultra Instinct doesn't make you a gosh darned Touhou expert. Goku was hit by Jiren quite a few times. And at that point Goku mastered it.
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Jiren and Goku both demonstrated Danmaku though and unlike Touhou, there was no gap in their attack, it was litteraly just a wall of attacks, Palkia and Dialga never demonstrated to be even agile on Pikachu's level so saying that you need some ultra high tier dodge to avoid it just because they used barriers against it is dumb.
Also Dark Void is litteraly one of the least accurate Pokemon move, it's less accurate than a tackle.
Also Dark Void is litteraly one of the least accurate Pokemon move, it's less accurate than a tackle.
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IIRC Jiren only hit Goku by overpowering him, then attacking his vulnerable body. Regardless, that's why I keep bringing up the experience and skill of the Grand Priest himself. Ultra Instinct doesn't magically give you new powers, so GP's UI is at an obvious massive advantage over Goku's usage due to all of his abilities.
We also know that effectiveness scales, considering Whis and Vados contest on who would win in a fight by the time of the anime.
The point is, the Grand Priest would at least need to be overpowered or stunned for Darkrai to land a Dark Void, based on Goku vs Jiren in the anime and it's going to be far harder than Goku, due to all of GP's abilities.
We also know that effectiveness scales, considering Whis and Vados contest on who would win in a fight by the time of the anime.
The point is, the Grand Priest would at least need to be overpowered or stunned for Darkrai to land a Dark Void, based on Goku vs Jiren in the anime and it's going to be far harder than Goku, due to all of GP's abilities.
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Would GP info analysis do anything here?
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Again, "accuracy" in the way your using it is pure game mechanics and is never treated that way outside the games.
>Not as igile as a Pikachu
You must've missed Dialga and Palkia's fight in the movie. They show pretty damn good dodging. Even then, infinite speed.
>Not as igile as a Pikachu
You must've missed Dialga and Palkia's fight in the movie. They show pretty damn good dodging. Even then, infinite speed.
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GP already wins due to passive Probability manipulation, but Cal is contesting the usage of game mechanics for GP's ability. Info Analysis wouldn't really convince Cal even further due to also being game mechanics, pretty sure.
Although, realistically speaking I think he's in the minority in contesting GP's passive probability and we are using these profiles for the VS thread, so we can't just ignore its existence.
Although, realistically speaking I think he's in the minority in contesting GP's passive probability and we are using these profiles for the VS thread, so we can't just ignore its existence.
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Aren't most game files riddled with probably manipulation via something inherently a game mechanic? So what's the problem with this character having it?
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You're implying I don't have problems with any of those characters having it. Pretty sure Kirby/Link has it as well and I need to nuke it.
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And yet game mechanics that were never treated as anything are accepted on their profile while other stuff isn't, you can't go 'i don't trust the profiles' and then not put Pokemon under the same standard.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
I'v seen it and meh, they aren't portrayed as all that agile, their dodging stuff is closer to what Freezer did to Vegeta's barrage of attack rather than what you would do in a game of Touhou.
Speed Equalized mean that's pointless.
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It's worth noting that we had over 7 votes for GP 12 hours ago, so it's another 12 hours before grace unless those votes can be adequately negated.
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Is there a difference between a character sleeping and being forced to sleep? It yields the same result.
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Ummmm, sry, I guess??? I'll just call it DB if it really bothers you.Rose of Ragnarok said:
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Retracting my vote.
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It's not game mechanics if it's in the anime. But accuracy hardly ever comes up in the anime, if at all. I remember tons of instances in the anime where Pokemon use moves like Zap Cannon, Focus Blast, Guillotine, Horn Drill etc and hit their target first try without breaking a sweat. All of these moves have notoriously low accuracies in the game.Dragomer said:
Rose_of_Ragnarok
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Nah, it's fine. Don't worry about it.Dragopentling said:
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