"Here's a better question... do you wanna have bad time?" - Sans Profile Rework!

[ShionAH]

Title said enough lil bro, click here

Spoiler: Additions

• Power Nullification (With his Special Attack, he is capable of indefinitely extending his turn by not taking it[2]. Ensuring that the enemy cannot attack, use equipment, talk, use abilities and interact with Sans[2])
• Invulnerability Negation and Empathic Manipulation (As the Judge, Sans is capable of fully controlling and using KARMA[2]. A type of poison effect which whittles the opponents HP down overtime while also preventing their healing in the meantime[2], affecting both their souls[2] and bodies[2] while also ignoring Frisk's Invulnerability Frames[2]. When poisoned by KARMA, the victims to feel guilt and regret as if their sins were crawling[2] and weighing on their backs[2]. Heavily implied to be capable of affecting Flowey, who lacks a SOUL[5])
• Selective Additional Intangibility (Is able to control and manipulate blue attacks[2] far better than his brother[2], which are attacks that can only be evaded if the target remains perfectly still, where even the slightest movement ensures a direct hit)
• Toon Force (Similar to his brother, Sans is capable of making strange and nonsensical things happen just for the sake of a jokes)
  • Air Manipulation (Has a self-sustaining tornado in his room[3])
  • Fire Manipulation (His room is constantly burning, but only from the outside[3])
  • Sound Manipulation (Is able to play the "ba dum tss" noise when he makes puns)
  • Spatial Manipulation (Created an infinitely layered joke book that contains a quantum physic book which contains a joke book which contains a quantum physic book and so on[3])

Agree:
Disagree:

---

 

[Sdjlakjh]

Agree but... can he beat Goku tho?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

W CRT

Power Nullification (With his Special Attack, he is capable of indefinitely extending his turn by not taking it[2]. Ensuring that the enemy cannot attack, use equipment, talk, use abilities and interact with Sans[2])

Agree only if it is put under his Combat Applicable 4th Wall breaking

Invulnerability Negation

Yes, I wanted to propose a CRT to add it myself but forgot

while also preventing their healing in the meantime[2]

No? Where did you take that from, Frisk can perfectly heal while on KARMA

Empathic Manipulation (When poisoned by KARMA, the victims to feel guilt and regret as if their sins were crawling[2] and weighing on their backs[2].)

Feeling guilty does not necessarily imply that it is Sans’ KR which makes it doing so. This is also (likely) a reason why KR is not 100% provable to work on sins — sins crawling on your back and KARMA do not have any direct implications of causation one another.

• Selective Additional Intangibility (Is able to control and manipulate blue attacks[2] far better than his brother[2], which are attacks that can only be evaded if the target remains perfectly still, where even the slightest movement ensures a direct hit)

Redundant, all of his attacks are already intangible

• Toon Force (Similar to his brother, Sans is capable of making strange and nonsensical things happen just for the sake of a jokes)
  • Air Manipulation (Has a self-sustaining tornado in his room[3])
  • Fire Manipulation (His room is constantly burning, but only from the outside[3])
  • Sound Manipulation (Is able to play the "ba dum tss" noise when he makes puns)
  • Spatial Manipulation (Created an infinitely layered joke book that contains a quantum physic book which contains a joke book which contains a quantum physic book and so on[3])

These make sense, take my approval

Agree but... can he beat Goku tho?

Already did (although that version of Goku had no ri-)

 

[ShionAH]

No? Where did you take that from, Frisk can perfectly heal while on KARMA

I opened the game and tried it, when under affects of KR Frisks items that are supposed to give full Hp give way less.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I opened the game and tried it, when under affects of KR Frisks items that are supposed to give full Hp give way less.

Give a proof then, otherwise it is just “trust me bro”. Also, no.

 

[Redite250]

The reason it seems like it heals less is because it keeps dealing damage after the heal, right? That's why people usually wait for Karma to end before healing while fighting Sans

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Feeling guilty does not necessarily imply that it is Sans’ KR which makes it doing so. This is also (likely) a reason why KR is not 100% provable to work on sins — sins crawling on your back and KARMA do not have any direct implications of causation one another.

Meh actually I take this back. Frisk on Genocide would objectively never feel guilty themselves. They literally hunted for the majority of monsters and killed them all, felt no guilty after killing innocents or even Toriel with Papyrus. I fully agree with Empathic Manipulation now. Also, it is not via KARMA as no-hit person gets the same text.
Although this would make his SI not that insane as it is glorified rn, so the justification should change, but it would work the same in matchups (aka it would now be Empathic Manip + SI instead of just SI)

 

[ShionAH]

Give a proof then, otherwise it is just “trust me bro”.

You can try it yourself tf, go to bad time simulator

Also, no.

I opened the game and tried it, when under affects of KR Frisks items that are supposed to give full Hp give way less.

Read mf

The reason it seems like it heals less is because it keeps dealing damage after the heal, right? That's why people usually wait for Karma to end before healing while fighting Sans

iirc they just dont give full health when you are poisoned

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You can try it yourself tf, go to bad time simulator

Bro this is the same as “watch the show he did it”. There is a reason we link justifications to scans.

Anyways I sent the clip, the guy healed 40 from the Legendary Hero as he is supposed to

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Love how the quotes are in comic sans lol

Anyway, it's definitely a great improvements, love the SI expansion especially, though I must say:

• I don't think the "Likely" from the Time Stop should be removed, none of the evidence really changed. Papyrus' statement is pretty vague (IS SANS PRANKING YOU ACROSS TIME AND SPACE?) and honestly indicates Time Travel than Time Stop, not that Papyrus is all that reliable.
• I think his Fourth Wall Awareness (Combat-Applicable) including stuff like attacking in the menu and stretching the battle box are good additions, though the winking at the player and UT Demo stuff definitely seems like fluff. Plus, I do believe that we treat the "dirty hacker" ending as non-canon.
• KARMA already negates Invulnerability by virtue of being Durability Negation, so that doesn't work Plus if we treated it as Invulnerability Negation, sans likely loses his dura neg which is a no-go (Gonna need video proof of KARMA negating Healing).

That's about it.

 

[Redite250]

iirc they just dont give full health when you are poisoned

Found a clip of someone using Instant Noodles while under Karma, it healed him to full health but it dropped down due to the lingering poison effect.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Love how the quotes are in comic sans lol

Anyway, it's definitely a great improvements, love the SI expansion especially, though I must say:

• I don't think the "Likely" from the Time Stop should be removed, none of the evidence really changed. Papyrus' statement is pretty vague (IS SANS PRANKING YOU ACROSS TIME AND SPACE?) and honestly indicates Time Travel than Time Stop, not that Papyrus is all that reliable.

It just makes Time Stop consistent enough to make it straight up I think

• KARMA already negates Invulnerability by virtue of being Durability Negation, so that doesn't work Plus if we treated it as Invulnerability Negation, sans likely loses his dura neg which is a no-go (Gonna need video proof of KARMA negating Healing).

He negates SOUL temporary invulnerability Frisk has, not physical one

Found a clip of someone using Instant Noodles while under Karma, it healed him to full health but it dropped down due to the lingering poison effect.

Yeah, if someone heals 40 HPs they would regain 40 health, it’s just that full HP will be reduced by the amount of KARMA that did not pass yet. It does not really negate healing

 

[ShionAH]

though the winking at the player and UT Demo stuff definitely seems like fluff.

Fluff? Wdym, its just to show that he knows the fourth wall

Plus, I do believe that we treat the "dirty hacker" ending as non-canon.

where did that come from tho

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

It just makes Time Stop consistent enough to make it straight up I think

It was already accepted with the Papyrus statement, it's still a really vague ability and its showings aren't really all that concrete either, I believe it should be kept as a "Likely."

He negates SOUL temporary invulnerability Frisk has, not physical one

I don't think that changes anything? His SOUL dura neg would dura neg SOUL invulnerability?

 

[ShionAH]

It was already accepted with the Papyrus statement, it's still a really vague ability and its showings aren't really all that concrete either, I believe it should be kept as a "Likely."

Tbh the Grillby scene is pretty straight forward, everything stops expect for them

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

where did that come from tho

Basically, it's just an error handling message and is something that can only be found through modifying the games source code in an out-of-verse action, which is definitely not a feature that the game intended.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Tbh the Grillby scene is pretty straight forward, everything stops expect for them

Ehh, it can easily be interpreted as just a visual cue to emphasize that Sans was discussing something important, the dramatic spotlight certainly doesn't help its case.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I don't think that changes anything? His SOUL dura neg would dura neg SOUL invulnerability?

Ignoring durability is not same as ignoring invulnerability

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Tbh the Grillby scene is pretty straight forward, everything stops expect for them

Then should Photoshop Flowey have Time Stop too?

 

[thetechmaster36]

Ignoring durability is not same as ignoring invulnerability

Yes it is, the Invulnerability page even mentions that getting around it requires the use of Durability Negation.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Yes it is, the Invulnerability page even mentions that getting around it requires the use of Durability Negation.

Frisk’s Invulnerability sound does not even play during Sans battle, which is not the case with Mettaton’s durability negation.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Actually, I just remembered that sans doesn't even remove the Invulnerability, Cloudy Glasses and Torn Notebook make you take less damage from sans.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Frisk’s Invulnerability sound does not even play during Sans battle, which is not the case with Mettaton’s durability negation.

Cool, except that has nothing to do with what I said. Negating durability is the same as negating Invulnerability, as outlined by the Invulnerability page itself.

On that note though, I disagree with the implementation of Invulnerability Negation, since this seems more like something that would go under Sans' fourth-wall breaking. Only he is capable of bypassing Frisk's i-frames (which is more like intangibility frames, because the attacks simply phase through the SOUL instead of disappearing on contact and not doing anything); nobody else is, so I think that's just another application of him breaking the rules of Undertale's system rather than Invulnerability Negation.

Additionally, I also disagree with this:

Likely Class M with Magic (Superior to Flowey's vines, due to them still having magical properties and Sans being implied to have defeated him many times)

What correlation does Sans defeating Flowey several times have to him and his magic being superior to Flowey's vines in LS? Does Sans have the power to restrain Flowey's vines or something? Do we know whether or not he is even capable of such a thing?

Sans supposedly kicking Flowey's ass a bunch doesn't necessarily mean he has superior Lifting Strength. It's just that: he's capable of kicking Flowey's ass a bunch of times. Nothing that demonstrates more Lifting Strength than Flowey.

The rest of the changes, though, I'm okay with.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Actually, I just remembered that sans doesn't even remove the Invulnerability, Cloudy Glasses and Torn Notebook make you take less damage from sans.

Irrelevant cuz INV is set to 0 and their INV boost mechanics is reworked for the fight:

Spoiler: Yappery

Invulnerability is set to 0 during the fight against Sans thanks to his KARMA ability. The Cloudy Glasses' and Torn Notebook's INV-boosting utility is still present, but it is reworked for the fight:[3]

• If only the Torn Notebook is equipped, damage is ignored once every five frames, and KR has a 50% chance to take longer to damage the protagonist.
• If only the Cloudy Glasses are equipped, damage is ignored once every four frames, and KR has a 67% chance to take longer to damage the protagonist.
• If both the Torn Notebook and Cloudy Glasses are equipped, damage is ignored once every three frames, and KR always takes longer to damage the protagonist.

Cool, except that has nothing to do with what I said. Negating durability is the same as negating Invulnerability, as outlined by the Invulnerability page itself.

On that note though, I disagree with the implementation of Invulnerability Negation, since this seems more like something that would go under Sans' fourth-wall breaking. Only he is capable of bypassing Frisk's i-frames (which is more like intangibility frames, because the attacks simply phase through the SOUL instead of disappearing on contact and not doing anything); nobody else is, so I think that's just another application of him breaking the rules of Undertale's system rather than Invulnerability Negation.

None of this attacks my points. Frisk’s SOUL is Invulnerable after monsters’ hits, even after MTT’s durability negating attacks, but against Sans this thing does not work. Also INV is straight up set to 0 against Sans as I sent above.

What correlation does Sans defeating Flowey several times have to him and his magic being superior to Flowey's vines in LS? Does Sans have the power to restrain Flowey's vines or something? Do we know whether or not he is even capable of such a thing?

Why isn’t it in the OP btw anyways. Also Class M was already removed for reasons here.

 

[ShionAH]

The reason it was removed was because TK was only soul based, but that statement lacks proof and is actually proven wrong since its kinda implied Sans moved a drink to the roof of Grillbys with it

 

[thetechmaster36]

Frisk’s SOUL is Invulnerable after monsters’ hits, even after MTT’s durability negating attacks, but against Sans this thing does not work.

So then. . .why is this not just Sans breaking the rules of Undertale's system like I already said before? If even Mettaton's HP-halving attack triggers the i-frames, but Sans' doesn't, then that's basically what I already stated.

Also Class M was already removed for reasons here.

Shion's gotta remove it then, because if it was agreed to be removed in that thread, then it shouldn't be on the proposed profile change.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

The reason it was removed was because TK was only soul based, but that statement lacks proof and is actually proven wrong since its kinda implied Sans moved a drink to the roof of Grillbys with it

Actually about that, couldn't sans just have teleported the glass to the roof? That would be way easier than using telekinesis.

 

[ShionAH]

Actually about that, couldn't sans just have teleported the glass to the roof? That would be way easier than using telekinesis.

He needs his blue eye to teleport stuff

Shion's gotta remove it then, because if it was agreed to be removed in that thread, then it shouldn't be on the proposed profile change.

Why tf not, I have better arguments for it.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

He needs his blue eye to teleport stuff

And what indicates he didn't use it?

 

[ShionAH]

And what indicates he didn't use it?

What indictaes he did? point is tk only working on souls has no proof to back it up, with this feat even being able to be interepated to debunk the claim

 

[thetechmaster36]

If you have arguments, then put them in the OP or post them below my message.

And if you're going to bring up the fact that Sans was apparently able to beat Flowey's ass multiple times before, that's not proof of anything because we don't know how any of those fights could've gone. In fact, why would we assume that Sans possesses similar or superior Lifting Strength to Flowey's vines? Do we have a reason to assume that besides "he beat Flowey's ass a lot"?

The assumption that Sans' magic is superior in LS to Flowey's vines is completely unfounded, and unless you bring some definitive proof of this being the case, I wholeheartedly disagree.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

What indictaes he did? point is tk only working on souls has no proof to back it up, with this feat even being able to be interepated to debunk the claim

It would take less effort and it's something sans is known to regularly use? And nothing indicates its telekinesis, especially since we know it works by manipulating the SOUL?

 

[ShionAH]

Alr, no need to be overlydramatic. Not like any of your blue name opinions matter lol

Sans beating floweys ass many many times may imply Sans mgic is superior which is my claim.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

8-B sans is real fr

Anyway about this,

directly acknowledges them as "the entity"

When does this happen?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Cracks Fingers

Disagree with a lot of stuff here, but will need to give a proper answer tomorrow, pretty tired rn.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Sans beating floweys ass many many times may imply Sans mgic is superior which is my claim.

Which, again, I ask. . .why?

I'll reiterate, we don't know how exactly the fights between Sans and Flowey went. The assumption that Sans' magic is superior to Flowey's based on off-screen fights that we're never given the details of - not by Sans, or by Flowey - is circumstantial. It has no proof or backing, nor do we hear it from either of the two combatants about what happened. All we know is that Flowey was apparently beaten by Sans several times, and that's that.

I get the angle you're coming from, but I don't see anything that substantiates the claim you're making. For all we know, Sans could've just KARMA'd the hell out of Flowey, all while avoiding his attacks. But to say that my interpretation of that is correct would be hypocritical, so I won't choose to put that forward.

I apologize if I came off as direct or confrontational, I'm just a bit blunt in what I say.

 

[ShionAH]

Anyway about this,

When does this happen?

Its the anomly I miss worded it, sorry

 

[Homie890]

semms good.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Its the anomly I miss worded it, sorry

Ah.

The Anomaly is most likely just Flowey, sans just mistakenly thought it was Frisk. Really nothing to do with the Player.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ah.

The Anomaly is most likely just Flowey, sans just mistakenly thought it was Frisk. Really nothing to do with the Player.

Tbh there is evidence of Sans knowing the Player, just that's way better than this.