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Help needed with The Dark Tower revisions
- Thread starter Antvasima
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1) No, for reasons I literally just stated
2) Yes, the hierarchy of the tower itself is High 1-B (Or arguably Low 1-A) but they aren't bound by it. FFS Maturin HOLDS IT UP. Why would he be bound by it
3) Yes, but "Dinensions" in this context includes all higher levels of the tower
2) Yes, the hierarchy of the tower itself is High 1-B (Or arguably Low 1-A) but they aren't bound by it. FFS Maturin HOLDS IT UP. Why would he be bound by it
3) Yes, but "Dinensions" in this context includes all higher levels of the tower
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But Maturin isn't physically High 1-B.
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1. What reasons? That Maturin is a smurf? Either he's weaker than Pennywise (which is very unlikely to be the case) or he's stronger and the void beyond the end of the macroverse doesn't transcend him.ZacharyGrossman273 said:
2. Holding it up doesn't require him being infinitely superior. So what if he holds up the tower? At best you could make an argument for Low 1-A.
3. Why would it refer to the layers of the tower when in the very quote it implies spatial dimensions (even defining it as a void without directions). Which are not what the layers of the tower are nor what they are ever referred to in the books.
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People are talking about it on Discord. People who know the verse
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Carrying the tower on his back isn't literal, it's metaphorical talk for Maturin's status as a beam guardian. Maturin and Pennywise aren't physical beings, nor is Maturin carrying a literal tower on him.
The Tower itself has a Physical and Magical existence through the beams, with the physical manifestation being Old Ones' shenanigans. The Magical existence of course transcends the physical manifestation. The Tower exists on every reality at every level, being the axis of all spacetimes and worlds. Maturin scales above this via being a conceptual beam guardian, and a macroversal who comes from realms where space-time, physics, etc. don't exist conceptually and are irrelevant.
As for the whole Gan thing, he's not just one infinity above Maturin and Penny. He's conceptually above and inaccesible to them, with the entire verse structure being contained within songs originating from him. Everything on all levels comes from him.
The Tower itself has a Physical and Magical existence through the beams, with the physical manifestation being Old Ones' shenanigans. The Magical existence of course transcends the physical manifestation. The Tower exists on every reality at every level, being the axis of all spacetimes and worlds. Maturin scales above this via being a conceptual beam guardian, and a macroversal who comes from realms where space-time, physics, etc. don't exist conceptually and are irrelevant.
As for the whole Gan thing, he's not just one infinity above Maturin and Penny. He's conceptually above and inaccesible to them, with the entire verse structure being contained within songs originating from him. Everything on all levels comes from him.
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proof for those claims would be very appriciated
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Doesent that mean Pennywise should have Conceptual Manipulation
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has anyone asked MrKing to comment here yet ?
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Aeyu and I already stated we are handling this; I have been very ill recently, in conjunction with several other life-happenings, so I'd appreciate the chatter be kept to a minimum from others who are not either Aeyu or Kira.
And for what it's worth, pretty much any conclusions I draw from the series, MrKing implicitly supports, since he and I have yet to have any sort of disagreement on the series after our dozens of extended dialogues on it.
And for what it's worth, pretty much any conclusions I draw from the series, MrKing implicitly supports, since he and I have yet to have any sort of disagreement on the series after our dozens of extended dialogues on it.
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"There are six Beams, as you did say, but there are twelve Guardians, one for each end of each Beam. This for we're still on it- is the Beam of Shardik. Were you to go beyond the Tower, it would become the Beam of Maturin, the great turtle whose shell the world rests."
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Just to point out that the statement on Gan's character page is untrue.
"...It has been stated that an entire universe in one step can be contained within a single atom of a blade of grass in the step above, with this same step having an infinite multiverse which is itself contained within a grain of sand in the next step, and so on"
It never implies in the book that this passage is about levels of the Dark Tower but the size of the universe. Instead, in Insomnia, levels of the Tower are referred to as different planes of reality. As shown below:
The Room on the top of the Dark Tower is described as "above all of endless reality", which also supports the statement that levels of the Tower are about reality.
About reality
Although the word "reality" is mentioned several times in the series, it still doesn't fully explain its definition. But in 11/22/63, which is part of the Dark Tower universe (that Beverly and Richie appear, and the Turtle and It are also mentioned), we learn more about the nature of reality.
According to the Green Card Man, reality itself is bigger than the universe.
Every time travel and each choice of daily life will create a new timeline. All these timelines are stacked in the same reality, existed at the same time, like strings on a guitar, known as reality-strings. This is the reason why Al can go back in time and buy the same meat over and over.
This confirms that reality in Dark Tower is not only bigger than the universe but it comprises all divergent timelines (which constantly multiply) of the universe. Since every universe contains infinite universes, and every universe is contained within a bigger universe, as mentioned in The Gunslinger, which shall make the reality itself qualify as Low 1-A structure. This is only one level of the Tower as there are many planes of reality.
How many levels are there in the Tower?
We don't know the exact answer. But we do know Crimson king lives in one of higher levels of the Tower. These higher levels are completely unreachable for Short-Timers and Long-Timers. There are unimaginable levels between Crimson king's level and Long-Timer level (where Ralph was in).
In Black House, all the worlds are described as strung side by side in multiple dimensions throughout infinity, and the world Crimson king is in is up high there, which implies he is in higher level of the Tower.
And there's a similar description in The Talisma. Worlds are described as "the stripes coming ceaselessly up and out of a turning barber pole", which implies levels of the Tower may be endless.
To summarize, in King's works, reality itself comprises all divergent timeline of the universe, as every universe contains infinite universes and is contained within a bigger universe, which shall qualify as Low 1-A.
The Tower itself comprises presumably uncountable levels, to say the least, which are different planes of reality. The Room on the top of the the Tower is described as "above all of endless reality". I believe this should make the Dark Tower qualify as 1-A.
"...It has been stated that an entire universe in one step can be contained within a single atom of a blade of grass in the step above, with this same step having an infinite multiverse which is itself contained within a grain of sand in the next step, and so on"
It never implies in the book that this passage is about levels of the Dark Tower but the size of the universe. Instead, in Insomnia, levels of the Tower are referred to as different planes of reality. As shown below:
The Room on the top of the Dark Tower is described as "above all of endless reality", which also supports the statement that levels of the Tower are about reality.
About reality
Although the word "reality" is mentioned several times in the series, it still doesn't fully explain its definition. But in 11/22/63, which is part of the Dark Tower universe (that Beverly and Richie appear, and the Turtle and It are also mentioned), we learn more about the nature of reality.
According to the Green Card Man, reality itself is bigger than the universe.
Every time travel and each choice of daily life will create a new timeline. All these timelines are stacked in the same reality, existed at the same time, like strings on a guitar, known as reality-strings. This is the reason why Al can go back in time and buy the same meat over and over.
This confirms that reality in Dark Tower is not only bigger than the universe but it comprises all divergent timelines (which constantly multiply) of the universe. Since every universe contains infinite universes, and every universe is contained within a bigger universe, as mentioned in The Gunslinger, which shall make the reality itself qualify as Low 1-A structure. This is only one level of the Tower as there are many planes of reality.
How many levels are there in the Tower?
We don't know the exact answer. But we do know Crimson king lives in one of higher levels of the Tower. These higher levels are completely unreachable for Short-Timers and Long-Timers. There are unimaginable levels between Crimson king's level and Long-Timer level (where Ralph was in).
In Black House, all the worlds are described as strung side by side in multiple dimensions throughout infinity, and the world Crimson king is in is up high there, which implies he is in higher level of the Tower.
And there's a similar description in The Talisma. Worlds are described as "the stripes coming ceaselessly up and out of a turning barber pole", which implies levels of the Tower may be endless.
To summarize, in King's works, reality itself comprises all divergent timeline of the universe, as every universe contains infinite universes and is contained within a bigger universe, which shall qualify as Low 1-A.
The Tower itself comprises presumably uncountable levels, to say the least, which are different planes of reality. The Room on the top of the the Tower is described as "above all of endless reality". I believe this should make the Dark Tower qualify as 1-A.
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This passage shown in Gan's character page has already qualified as High 1-B. But this passage is about the size of the universe, not reality itself which is bigger and comprises the universe.
"If you fell outward to the limit of the universe, would you find a board fence and signs reading DEAD END? No. You might find something hard and rounded, as the chick must see the egg from the inside. And if you should peck through the shell (or find a door), what great and torrential light might shine through your opening at the end of space? Might you look through and discover our entire universe is but part of one atom on a blade of grass? Might you be forced to think that by burning a twig you incinerate an eternity of eternities? That existence rises not to one infinite but to an infinity of them?
Perhaps you saw what place our universe plays in the scheme of things - as no more than an atom in a blade of grass. Could it be that everything we can perceive, from the microscopic virus to the distant Horsehead Nebula, is contained in one blade of grass that may have existed for only a single season in an alien time-flow? What if that blade should be cut off by a scythe? When it begins to die, would the rot seep into our universe and our own lives, turning everthing yellow and brown and desiccated? Perhaps it's already begun to happen. We say the world has moved on; maybe we really mean that it has begun to dry up.
Think how small such a concept of things make us, gunslinger! If a God watches over it all, does He actually mete out justice for such a race of gnats? Does His eye see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a speck of hydrogen floating disconnected in the depth of space? And if He does see... what must the nature of such a God be? Where does He live? How is it possible to live beyond infinity?
Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes - not worlds by universes - encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, a chain never to be completed.
Size, gunslinger... size."
"If you fell outward to the limit of the universe, would you find a board fence and signs reading DEAD END? No. You might find something hard and rounded, as the chick must see the egg from the inside. And if you should peck through the shell (or find a door), what great and torrential light might shine through your opening at the end of space? Might you look through and discover our entire universe is but part of one atom on a blade of grass? Might you be forced to think that by burning a twig you incinerate an eternity of eternities? That existence rises not to one infinite but to an infinity of them?
Perhaps you saw what place our universe plays in the scheme of things - as no more than an atom in a blade of grass. Could it be that everything we can perceive, from the microscopic virus to the distant Horsehead Nebula, is contained in one blade of grass that may have existed for only a single season in an alien time-flow? What if that blade should be cut off by a scythe? When it begins to die, would the rot seep into our universe and our own lives, turning everthing yellow and brown and desiccated? Perhaps it's already begun to happen. We say the world has moved on; maybe we really mean that it has begun to dry up.
Think how small such a concept of things make us, gunslinger! If a God watches over it all, does He actually mete out justice for such a race of gnats? Does His eye see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a speck of hydrogen floating disconnected in the depth of space? And if He does see... what must the nature of such a God be? Where does He live? How is it possible to live beyond infinity?
Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes - not worlds by universes - encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, a chain never to be completed.
Size, gunslinger... size."
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I think what he's trying to say is that it's actually a single layer in the Dark Tower containing what we currently accept as the High 1-B universe-atom regress. What's more, there are endless layers above this one, which are Low 1-A. The top-most part of the tower is beyond all of this and would therefore be 1-A and the Macroverse that exists beyond this would also be 1-A.Antvasima said:
Gan would be High 1-A via seeing all of this, even the very hierarchy established of 2 levels of 1-A here as fiction, sorta like why he was rated as Tier 0 prior instead of just 1-A.
Of course, as for whether what he's claiming is valid or not, that remains to be seen.
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- Thread starter
- #192
Even if that is an accurate interpretation, which I am not at all sure that it is, Gan would definitely not be High 1-A for a single degree of reality-fiction interaction above an 1-A structure, just a slightly higher degree of 1-A.
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Well yeah but from what I know, Gan views even this two-layer hierarchy as fiction instead of just viewing the lower layer on its own. Which makes him qualitatively superior to the framework of a 1-A hierarchy (albeit a finite one) and I thought that made him qualify for High 1-A (sorta like the Overvoid or the Fireman).
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- Thread starter
- #197
Kami Tenchi transcends 1-A characters in the same manner as far as I am aware, but is still just a higher degree of 1-A.
To even reach 1-A+, it is required to have gone through infinite levels of such qualitative hierarchical differences.
To even reach 1-A+, it is required to have gone through infinite levels of such qualitative hierarchical differences.
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I vaguely remember AogiriKira mentioning once that there was enough to suggest that Gan could still be tier 0 in the new system, though again, I'm not at all involved enough with the verse to say what it was. And I believe she's asleep at the moment. I'll see if I can get her back on the thread.
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