Help needed with The Dark Tower revisions

[Twellas]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3693818

here it is

 

[Antvasima]

So should we make Maturin, Pennywise, and the Crimson King Low 1-A, and Gan 1-A then? Or is something else more appropriate?

 

[Planck69]

For the mean time, I think that could work until Aogiri makes her CRT.

 

[Twellas]

low 1-A has literally no basis tho

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What should we tier them as, and what justifications should we use then?

Also, can somebody ask Ultima Reality and DontTalkDT to comment here please? You can tell them that I would appreciate their help.

 

[Planck69]

At least High 1-B for Maturin via holding the entire Dark Tower on his shell. Pennywise would just scale to Maturin. Gan would be 1-A with his current justifications albeit adjusted to remove the Tier 0 connotations.

I'm on it.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

No, Maturin and Pennywise should stay 1-A, because the macro verse is beyond dimensionality

"There are no directions in the Macroverse to speak of: Richie, no! Go back! It's the edge of everything up here! The deadlights! souns like what you turn on when you drivinn you hearse at midnie, senhorr . . . and where is you, honeychile? smile, so I can see where you is!"

Gan should probably get downgraded to 1-A, however

 

[Twellas]

again, existing in a dimension that is beyond dimensionality is not a 1-A feat.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Yeah, IT lives in a "outland beyond all lands" that is "beyond the end of the marcoverse". It's still nothing more than an "existing within" feat

...

 

[Twellas]

exactly

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I'm not saying I agree with you.

Transcending something absolutely qualifies for a tier.

 

[Planck69]

No, Maturin and Pennywise should stay 1-A, because the macro verse is beyond dimensionality
"There are no directions in the Macroverse to speak of: Richie, no! Go back! It's the edge of everything up here! The deadlights! souns like what you turn on when you drivinn you hearse at midnie, senhorr . . . and where is you, honeychile? smile, so I can see where you is!"

Gan should probably get downgraded to 1-A, however

Could you give the scan for it being superior to the hierarchy of the Dark Tower? Because we'd need that for it to be 1-A. Otherwise Maturin just has some form of Beyond Dimensional Existence and maybe Irrelevant speed.

 

[Twellas]

jeez man, how many times do i have to say this? the realm in which IT resides is the thing that transcends the high 1-B structure, not IT itself, existing in a 1-A realm is not a 1-A feat by itself.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Now the mind of the writer's wife was with It, in It, beyond the end of the macroverse; in the darkness beyond the Turtle; in the outlands beyond all lands. She was in Its eye; she was in Its mind. She was in the deadlights.


The deadlights blatantly transcend the macroverse.

 

[Twellas]

I'm genuinely tired of repeating myself, whatever you say mate

 

[Planck69]

Nah, he's right. After all, I'm Low 2-C via existing in a 4-D space-time continuum.

......See what's wrong with this Zach?

 

[Antvasima]

So High 1-B Maturin (and maybe Crimson King), Unknown Pennywise, and 1-A Gan? Would that be appropriate?

 

[Planck69]

So High 1-B Maturin (and maybe Crimson King), Unknown Pennywise, and 1-A Gan? Would that be appropriate?

Based on what's currently on the profiles;

Maturin: High 1-B (Carries the entirety of the tower on his back)

Pennywise: Low 1-A (Exists in a void beyond that in which Maturin resides)

Gan: 1-A (Sees the entire setting as fiction)

The wording can be changed but basically this.

 

[Planck69]

Crimson King should probably be given an Unknown rating since we're not sure enough where he stands in comparison to the other cosmic entities.

 

[Overlord775]

Meturin is stronger than Pennywise, so he scales above him

 

[Planck69]

Meturin is stronger than Pennywise, so he scales above him

Then what the heck is that on his profile? Eh, both of them can be High 1-B, I suppose.

 

[Ercosore]

So High 1-B/Low 1-A for Maturin and Pennywise, and Baseline 1-A for Gan. Correct?

 

[Planck69]

So High 1-B/Low 1-A for Maturin and Pennywise, and Baseline 1-A for Gan. Correct?

Just High 1-B for Maturin and Pennywise since Low 1-A was based on Pennywise transcending him.

Gan is just 1-A, you are correct here.

 

[Overlord775]

Uh, what do you mean ?

"Outerverse level (Exists outside of the Dark Tower in a void which lacks physicality/direction, and predates both the concept of time and the multiverse's existence as a whole. Carries the entire multiversal structure of the Dark Tower upon his back, and is confirmed to have existed prior to its creation. Explicitly more powerful than the likes of Pennywise)"

 

[Twellas]

So High 1-B Maturin (and maybe Crimson King), Unknown Pennywise, and 1-A Gan? Would that be appropriate?

Based on what's currently on the profiles;
Maturin: High 1-B (Carries the entirety of the tower on his back)

Pennywise: Low 1-A (Exists in a void beyond that in which Maturin resides)

Gan: 1-A (Sees the entire setting as fiction)

The wording can be changed but basically this.

Except Maturin is stated by IT itself to be stronger than Pennywise, so...

 

[Planck69]

Uh, what do you mean ?
"Outerverse level (Exists outside of the Dark Tower in a void which lacks physicality/direction, and predates both the concept of time and the multiverse's existence as a whole. Carries the entire multiversal structure of the Dark Tower upon his back, and is confirmed to have existed prior to its creation. Explicitly more powerful than the likes of Pennywise)"

Yeah, Pennywise was Low 1-A in my prior statement because I had mistakenly assumed that he was more powerful than Maturin. He isn't and thus both of them are High 1-B.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Nah, he's right. After all, I'm Low 2-C via existing in a 4-D space-time continuum.

......See what's wrong with this Zach?

...

I did not say exist IN a 1-A realm I said transcend one

Read what I wrote

 

[Overlord775]

Why exactly can't they just both be Low 1-A ?

 

[Planck69]

...

I did not say exist IN a 1-A realm I said transcend one

Read what I wrote

Yet nothing you posted implied transcendental superiority to the tower as a result of existing in that realm. And we don't even have any proof that the realm itself is 1-A, just that it lacks dimensions (which is not even remotely enough to qualify for Low 1-A much less 1-A outright).

 

[Twellas]

Because there is absolutely no proof of them transcending the Dark Tower to any degree

 

[Twellas]

Maturin holding it on its back is merely an higher degree of high 1-B

 

[Planck69]

Why exactly can't they just both be Low 1-A ?

Maturin's best feat is supporting the Dark Tower on his back, which would just be a higher degree of High 1-B. The void being dimensionless means nothing in itself when the Dark Tower doen't even use a specifically dimensional hierarchy (which might have been proof for 1-A).

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Did you even read this quote

"Now the mind of the writer's wife was with It, in It, beyond the end of the macroverse; in the darkness beyond the Turtle; in the outlands beyond all lands. She was in Its eye; she was in Its mind. She was in the deadlights."

 

[Planck69]

Did you even read this quote
"Now the mind of the writer's wife was with It, in It, beyond the end of the macroverse; in the darkness beyond the Turtle; in the outlands beyond all lands. She was in Its eye; she was in Its mind. She was in the deadlights."

Even if what is being said above was transcendence, the only thing that it could even remotely prove is Pennywise being above Maturin. Which is being heavily contested on the thread as we speak.

Again, it could (and very likely is) imply that Pennywise simply exists in an even remoter realm than the Void in which Maturin floats.

And one statement with a vague "beyond X" in it isn't enough to bump a character to 1-A at all. The Great Old Ones are described as dimensionless in a verse where that almost always refers to a completely provably 1-A realm or being. Yet even they only qualify for Varies.

 

[Ercosore]

How can Pennywise be both " Explicitly weaker than Maturin" and "be a void beyond Maturin" at the same time?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Maturin IS above pennywise, but you can have higher levels of power than your own dimensional existence, so the same could apply to beyond dimensional stuff.

 

[Twellas]

Maturin IS above pennywise, but you can have higher levels of power than your own dimensional existence, so the same could apply to beyond dimensional stuff.

nnnnnot really. If a guy transcends you then he's automatically stronger than you, otherwise he wouldn't transcend you, period. This further solidifies the fact that "beyond" merely means farther, especially given that "outland beyond all lands" comment

 

[Twellas]

you can't be stronger than a guy who transcends you to the degree you are claiming because in that case the transcendence would be meaningless and not related to power

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

"If a guy transcends you then he's automatically stronger than you"

Wrong. There are physically 3-D beings with infinite dimensional powers in fiction. A 5-D being would transcend them, but lose to them in a fight.

 

[Planck69]

Maturin IS above pennywise, but you can have higher levels of power than your own dimensional existence, so the same could apply to beyond dimensional stuff.

Deep breath

1. By this admission, Maturin is above Pennywise despite the latter existing in a void beyond the former. That directly contradicts this void at the end of the macroverse transcending aything.

2. The Dark Tower is a hierarchy of multiverses where an infinite multiverse in one layer could be contained in a blade of grass on the upper one. Why would a lack of dimensionality prove that the void renders the very hierarchy itself meaningless (which is what is needed to even remotely contend for 1-A).

3. I shouldn't need to tell you and probably don't but; Being unbound by dimensions does not automatically qualify a character for 1-A.