Hellsing: Schrodinger revision

[ImmortalDread]

But NEP's argument has no evidence to back it up (even the scan does not refer it).
Pardon me, but you're using Wikipedia as source for the ability is a bad argument and also incognizant. Also, from where is the <literal illusion> coming from?
Read @Random-Helper323 argument for the quantum physics reference, as it actually makes sense why he said it and nothing here refers to NEP.

Also, to make my comment a bit more crystal clear:

---

“Cluster of imaginary numbers” is referring to the fact that the wave function is a complex-valued function.
And the: “neither dead nor alive” is a reference to both Schrödinger's cat and quantum superposition in general.
The nature of imaginary numbers is being roots of the equation x² + b = 0 for b > 0.
Imaginary numbers have no relation whatsoever to NEP, neither the binary terms refer to any existence/nonexistence and -1 being result of not both.

People seem to think imaginary numbers are some kind of mystical made up numbers.
So to elucidate, they're neither fabricated nor mystical, they are just as “real” as Real numbers are (and both are conceptional constructs anyway).

Note: and i is not √-1, the square root function is only defined for positive real numbers.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Random-Helper323]

So far possibly mid-godly is allowed, Abstract Existence seemingly is okay if the being is composed of thoughts, but non-existence is still being questioned.

It's because Schrodinger's nature is so uncertain. The way to describe how he works is that his body is controlled by his perception, but his body is also his true self as Schrodinger's soul was still in that body.

 

[ImmortalDread]

As I said, as long as there is no evidence for this assumption to begin with, you can just forget about it. I deeply explained why it is not.

 

[Robo432343]

Is the nep thing accepted?? What happened I read everything and am so confused

 

[ImmortalDread]

No, it is not.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Okay, let's hammer this whole thing down. What is the evidence for non-existence? I am aware that Alucard vanished, but we need more context, and Dread is raising good points against the imaginary numbers thing, since even the very statement used to support non-existence seemingly implies that he's become part of a quantum equation rather than ceasing to exist.

To nail down the evidence for Abstract Existence, is the fact that his state of existence is shaped by his own perception and what he chooses and thinks, to the point where the world around him no longer decides that. You can't decide he has no head just because you cut it off and smash it to mulch; he decides that he does still have that head, and so he appears again with his head intact, laughing at you. He is composed of his own thoughts.

For the evidence supporting Mid-Godly, the coinage and currency statements I think are rather vague and only work for supporting evidence. The true piece of information suggesting it is the fact that Alucard and Seras assimilate souls by drinking blood. An argument can also be made that the souls in the blood work like souls in bodies in many other fictions like Bleach, where tearing the body apart won't allow you to absorb the soul unless you can remove the soul the way Hollows and Soul Reapers can. Alucard and Seras could have a unique soul manipulation ability that allows them to extract and absorb the soul even though drinking the blood/body would typically not touch the soul. Considering they can extract and absorb souls while seemingly no other vampire can, it is clear they have soul manipulation, and evidence suggests other vampires just don't.

There are issues with applying this to Schrodinger's regeneration, however, due to some things, like there still being some blood left, and Alucard's soul stock still existing and still being attached to Schrodinger, all after Alucard disappeared along with all that blood. That's why it's being treated as a possibly.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Okay, let's hammer this whole thing down. What is the evidence for non-existence? I am aware that Alucard vanished, but we need more context, and Dread is raising good points against the imaginary numbers thing, since even the very statement used to support non-existence seemingly implies that he's become part of a quantum equation rather than ceasing to exist.

To nail down the evidence for Abstract Existence, is the fact that his state of existence is shaped by his own perception and what he chooses and thinks, to the point where the world around him no longer decides that. You can't decide he has no head just because you cut it off and smash it to mulch; he decides that he does still have that head, and so he appears again with his head intact, laughing at you. He is composed of his own thoughts.

Thanks for understanding my points!

 

[Random-Helper323]

Thanks for understanding my points!

I can't claim to fully understand quantum mechanics. But I'm trying to come to a reasonable conclusion, and I'd like to find a solid description for Schrodinger's nature, but as tempting as it is to just list everything that can fit, I'm trying to be cautious.

 

[Antvasima]

So far possibly mid-godly is allowed, Abstract Existence seemingly is okay if the being is composed of thoughts, but non-existence is still being questioned.

It's because Schrodinger's nature is so uncertain. The way to describe how he works is that his body is controlled by his perception, but his body is also his true self as Schrodinger's soul was still in that body.

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

Please tell me here if you reach agreements regarding the remaining topics here.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

Please tell me here if you reach agreements regarding the remaining topics here.

We're trying. It would have been nice if we could have waited for a few months after the previous thread. Still, better to get this done than regret that forever.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, and thank you for helping out.

 

[LordGinSama]

Alright well it seems like we've come to an conclusion, everything in the "accepted" section has been accepted so if anyone wants to close this I can get the edits applied.

 

[Deceived3596]

I've been asked to apply some additions, what has been accepted?

 

[Crabwhale]

Hello, sorry for the late appearance.

For starters, I would like to point out something that seems to have been missed in the previous conversation: every single vampire we see in the series that isn't Alucard or Seras is artificial (aside from the Major, and even then he's weird because he didn't accept the call of the blood like Alucard did, and the priest, but I'll get to that in a moment).

Now this is relevant because we know that artificial vampires are specifically engineered to only produce ghouls, even when they infect virgins of the opposite gender. This, in turn, tells us that the mechanism of blood sucking and turning they possess is fundamentally different to that of Alucard.

As for the priest himself, I don't think he's a con against Alucard's way of consuming souls as he consumes blood being the norm. Alucard's regen prior to Schrodinger works by substituting one of the millions of schmucks he's eaten over his long ass life, which he stores internally and can release with Level 0. The priest isn't storing shit internally; all his ghouls are external, so it makes sense that when he gets blown through the chest, they don't take the fall for him.

Hell, Level 0 splurging out all his ghouls is specifically why Alucard is at his most vulnerable, even though he's at his strongest.

 

[Crabwhale]

As for my stance, I agree with what the OP is suggesting.

 

[Crabwhale]

It would have been nice if we could have waited for a few months after the previous thread. Still, better to get this done than regret that forever.

My good sir, I'm saying this out of no genuine malice nor desire to be smarmy or smug: take a break.

I noticed this tendency of yours in the previous thread as well as this one, and I'll say it's a very unhealthy thing. This is a HOBBY. It is fundamentally meant to be FUN. If it is actively causing you distress, you're probably doing it wrong.

Now mind you, I'm probably not the best person to advise this. I've had my fair share of chimp moments on this site that have left me fuming. That being said, inordinate rage grants experience, and experience tells me you probably don't wanna be grinding it out if the whole undertaking just ******* sucks for you. A friendly suggestion, is all.

 

[LordGinSama]

I've been asked to apply some additions, what has been accepted?

NEP type 3 was seemingly accepted while type 2 and 1 were rejected. Schrodinger fits the bill for paradoxical nonexistentence.

 

[Dereck03]

I'm still skeptical about NEP 3 but if possible rating is used then sure, it may work.

 

[ImmortalDread]

How is NEP 3 accepted…? I don't remember suggesting this at all. We actually said this all belongs to his AE type 1.

 

[Dereck03]

How is NEP 3 accepted…? I don't remember suggesting this at all. We actually said this all belongs to his AE type 1.

Wasn't you guys discussed and came accepted it? I disagreed entirely with it previously tho.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Wasn't you guys discussed and came accepted it? I disagreed entirely with it previously tho.

I never suggested any NEP. No, I actually disagreed with it. I said this is AE type 1. I already explained what is imaginary number to begin with.

 

[Dereck03]

I never suggested any NEP. No, I actually disagreed with it. I said this is AE type 1. I already explained what is imaginary number to begin with.

I already debunked imaginary numbers as NEP, the remaining discussions is using Schrodinger stuff.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I already debunked imaginary numbers as NEP, the remaining discussions is using Schrodinger stuff.

As long as they are using external sources (from Wikipedia) to upgrade NEP 3, I am against it. It should be mentioned in the plot.

 

[Dereck03]

If he has already absorbed Schrodinger and it's already part of it's being then I could see the NEP... But I want scans or any proof that shows him using the schrodinger as NEP application.

Hellsing ends directly after Alucard learns how to control Schrodinger's power's, but he's already been shown to have access to Schrodinger's abilities granted by his existence.

Your description has nothing to do with what the scan present.... Alucard just said that he's killing his own lives and he's everywhere and nowhere....

I was expecting something like this description and it's not at all.... I disagree, there's nothing that proof NEP 3 here.

@Dread

 

[ImmortalDread]

Which I disagree with (Sorry, I am mistaken with other person). The scan suggests nothing for NEP 3 at all. There is no context to begin with. Him killing his own one million times till he is “everywhere and nowhere” does not make him NEP 3.

 

[Dereck03]

Exactly, that's why it was strange to me that it was still suggested, I thought you guys had come to some kind of conclusion since I wasn't watching this thread.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Exactly, that's why it was strange to me that it was still suggested, I thought you guys had come to some kind of conclusion since I wasn't watching this thread.

@LordGinSama No one actually agreed with. This should be removed.

 

[LordGinSama]

Yall are confused, type 3 NEP doesn't come from "everywhere and nowhere." I'll address this more when I get home.

 

[LordGinSama]

Back anyway I'll address Type 3 NEP which is a paradoxical form of non-existence. Type 3 is as follows.



Paradoxical Nonexistence: Characters still exist, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked. Equivalently, characters qualify which don't exist, but behave as if they do in some aspect other than their interaction with attacks and abilities. To qualify for this type, a character needs to be stated to be immune to manipulations of the aspects they are nonexistent in due to their nonexistence. An example of that would be a character who is able to think, and hence has a mind, but is stated to be immune to regular mind manipulation as said mind is paradoxically nonexistent in nature. The character doesn't necessarily behave exclusively nonexistent in regard to attacks, but that is the only requirement necessary to gain this type. In terms of binary, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0, this would be part 0 and part 1 simultaneously.





That's Schrodinger's main thing, he's a literal walking paradox who can choose to exist or not to exist. Dread and Derek got confused as they believe Type 3 NEP comes from "everywhere and nowhere." when in reality they're both only paying attention to Schrodinger's Type 1 AE which is seperate from Schrodinger's NEP Type 3. It's the same scan, the problem is that both Dread and Derek are only paying attention to the statement of "everywhere and nowhere." as opposed to the statement made on the right hand side. "He's a cherishe cat who jumps around in a world where the probability of existence is equivocal."




The proof is right in front of your face as I've listed in the OP, with all due respect the both of you saying "no proof or scans" is the result of you hyperfocsuing on one aspect while ignoring the others.

 

[LordGinSama]

How is NEP 3 accepted…? I don't remember suggesting this at all. We actually said this all belongs to his AE type 1.

What? No we absolutely didn't. We said Schrodinger gets AE type 1 for the reason that he's composed of his own thoughts, amongst being literal "self observation."



Type 3 NEP comes from Schrodinger being in a state of existence where the probability of existence itself isn't equivocal.

 

[LordGinSama]

Which I disagree with (Sorry, I am mistaken with other person). The scan suggests nothing for NEP 3 at all. There is no context to begin with. Him killing his own one million times till he is “everywhere and nowhere” does not make him NEP 3.

Your confused beyond belief Dread. Him killing his own souls has nothing to do with NEP, the souls scan was used in reference to his soul destruction.



Type 3 is based on something entirely different, you're the one who made the mistake of thinking "killing his souls." or the imaginary numbers thing being the justification for Schrodinger's Type 3 NEP. That comes from this scan which I've placed in the OP.

 

[LordGinSama]

The TLDR is that he exists within a state where he's neither truly existent nor truly non existent. He's essentially in a state of living in both simultaneously, which is what type 3 NEP is.

 

[ImmortalDread]

In my all honestly, I have never seen this scan brought in any argument exchange when we were arguing for NEP 3. And I assume @Dereck03 share the same view point since he shared me all relevant posts regarding it in this thread. I apologize for overlooking it, but I am hearing it for the first time.

Either, let's go to the scan. Nothing suggests either for NEP 3 at all.

That's Schrodinger's main thing, he's a literal walking paradox who can choose to exist or not to exist.

In your scan, it never states like that.

All your scan refers to is Schrödinger's cat is a thought experiment in quantum mechanics that was proposed by the physicist Erwin Schrödinger in 1935. It involves a scenario in which a cat is placed in a sealed box with a device that has a 50% chance of releasing a lethal poison. According to the principles of quantum mechanics, until the box is opened, and the contents are observed, the cat is both alive and dead, existing in a state of superposition. The thought experiment is used to illustrate the concept of quantum superposition, as well as the idea that observation and measurement can affect the outcome of events.

The phrase “Cheshire cat” refers to a fictional character from Lewis Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. The Cheshire cat is known for its enigmatic smile and its ability to disappear and reappear at will.

In the context of the sentence you provided, it seems to be suggesting that the person in question is like Schrödinger's cat in that they are able to exist in multiple states simultaneously, and also like the Cheshire cat in that they are able to jump around and be present in various places at different times. It is not entirely clear what is meant by the phrase “a world where the probability of existence is equivocal,” but it may be recommending that the person's existence is uncertain or difficult to define.

 

[LordGinSama]

I've posted in here earlier before but it's fine and understandable that you didn't see, obviously not gonna hold that against ya.


Dread, Schrodinger isn't related to the IRL Schrodinger's cat equation. Your assuming Schrodinger is based off of the actual thing, while it takes obvious inspiration from the real life equation General Schrodinger and the IRL equation are not the same thing.



Dread his name is Schrodinger, he isn't the actual Schrodinger cat that your actively thinking about, I'm fully aware of what the Schrodinger's cat equation is, I don't need to hear you explaining it to me like I'm in the 7th grade lol.



I agree it's not very clear hence why I'm suggesting a "possibly." as there's nothing going against that idea either, the issue stems from Schrodinger's lack of direct information so unfortunately this is the best compromise I can think of. His entire existence is that of a walking paradox, existent yet still existing. Type 3 NEP isn't a stretch imo so it should be fine to add, even as a possibly.

 

[Dereck03]

The proof is right in front of your face as I've listed in the OP, with all due respect the both of you saying "no proof or scans" is the result of you hyperfocsuing on one aspect while ignoring the others.

"He's a cherishe cat who jumps around in a world where the probability of existence is equivocal."

This is the first time you show me this scan and you claim that i'm saying "no proof or scans" .... You did the same, first the OP had no scans for NEP, I asked for them and you gave me the one of the imaginary numbers related to your suggestion of Type 2 which I already rejected, I kept waiting for Type 3, you gave me this scan which I rejected since it had nothing to do with Type 3, and just now you give me this one and you still wonder why I say there are no scans? Why not just present all the scans at once instead of giving them one by one at a time?

Regarding the Cheshire Cat, the only thing that is known is that it can disappear and appear whenever it likes, it is never emphasized that if it disappears from the same world or is found in another place when it disappears, so it will not be valid. And a Equivocal existence has nothing to do with NEP either, it is just something ambiguous or questionable, nothing to do with a paradoxical existence as you are saying and your scans never say.

 

[Dereck03]

Anyway... @Starter_Pack @Elizhaa @Bobsican you guys are listed as Knowledgeable Members about NEP along with me so i would greatly appreciate your input regarding this.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I did not change my opinion, and I still hold the same position as @Dereck03. I have explained it in details, also @LordGinSama in no aspect, I was trying to teach you anything or giving you 7th grade lesson, I was simply explaining in details. If you got offended by this, I apologize, but this was not my intention at all.

 

[LordGinSama]

This is the first time you show me this scan and you claim that i'm saying "no proof or scans" .... You did the same, first the OP had no scans for NEP, I asked for them and you gave me the one of the imaginary numbers related to your suggestion of Type 2 which I already rejected, I kept waiting for Type 3, you gave me this scan which I rejected since it had nothing to do with Type 3,

Stop gaslighting, I gave you that scan in particular after you asked for scans of Alucard being able to use Schrodinger's abilities. Let's not be intentionally dishonest here buddy, we both know you asked for that scan with a different context in mind. I never once said that scan of Alucard killing his souls is the justification for his NEP, that was the justification of Alucard being able to use Schrodinger's abilities so don't even try that.

and just now you give me this one and you still wonder why I say there are no scans? Why not just present all the scans at once instead of giving them one by one at a time?

I posted that same exact scan earlier to which you've both ignored. Don't sit here and gaslight me by saying I'm not posting scans whenever you're the one who isn't reading said scans properly.

Regarding the Cheshire Cat, the only thing that is known is that it can disappear and appear whenever it likes, it is never emphasized that if it disappears from the same world or is found in another place when it disappears, so it will not be valid.

This makes zero sense so I'd suggest you write that out more clearly. Schrodinger's Teleportation has nothing to do with his NEP, not sure why your even using that as a legitimate argument to be made.

And a wrong existence has nothing to do with NEP either, it is just something ambiguous or questionable, nothing to do with a paradoxical existence as you are saying and your scans never say.

I'm assuming you don't know the definition of the word "equivocal." that word means open to more than one interpretation. So it's not a "wrong existence" as you say which makes no sense.

 

[LordGinSama]

I did not change my opinion, and I still hold the same position as @Dereck03. I have explained it in details, also @LordGinSama in no aspect, I was trying to teach you anything or giving you 7th grade lesson, I was simply explaining in details. If you got offended by this, I apologize, but this was not my intention at all.

It's fine don't sweat, wasn't even offended but rather I was more confused lol.