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He who shakes the infinite universe VS She who is the infinite universe

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Reality warping, time hax better than Hit's and being universal+ literally just by existing give Verthandi the win.
 
How is her time hax better than Hit's else than the fact she can travel through it? And how does the fact it's a more "casual" feat (just existing) negate the several zenkais Goku had even after getting to be comparable to Jiren, an opponent who was on another level than already Low 2-C Zamasu who could himself propagate through time?

Warren Valion said:
How good is her Reality Warping?
Click to expand...
I can't seem to find information on that anywhere, but it seems like the goddess type of "pseudo-omniscient who is limited to her knowledge and creativity but can sort of play with most aspects of reality". Her power seems limited.
 
Hit can only stop time for less than a second. Any other time hax is better than his.

No amount of being stronger than universal+ characters will compare to being universal+ through the mere fact that she exists, something that does not require any power exertion in the first place.
 
Cropfist said:
Hit can only stop time for less than a second. Any other time hax is better than his.
No amount of being stronger than universal+ characters will compare to being universal+ through the mere fact that she exists, something that does not require any power exertion in the first place.
Click to expand...
I believe Hit skips time for less than a second.

His Time Stop is a different ability.
 
Will it not? Being able to destroy a universe extremely casually seems pretty comparable to someone who creates a universe extremely casually such as through biological functions or virtue of being alive.
 
One can destroy a universe by throwing a punch or energy beam.

One can destroy a universe just by being there.


It's obvious which one is more powerful and casual.
 
Hit doesn't stop time for less than a second, that was only in his first appearance. Hit's Time Stop increase by a unknown amount, the last time we saw it's length was when Hit used it to converse with a target he was going to kill.

However Hit's time stop still isn't that good.

Although MUI Goku isn't Baseline Low 2-C, he stomps people who are 20X stronger than Baseline. SSB Goku is above Baseline Low 2-C by a unknown amount but he can increase with KKX20, UIO is massively stronger than that and MUI is the same.

However it seems like Verth is still FAR more impressive.
 
Cropfist said:
One can destroy a universe by throwing a punch or energy beam.
One can destroy a universe just by being there.


It's obvious which one is more powerful and casual.
Click to expand...
Jiren's >>> than Infinite Zamasu VIA his mere presence.

M.U.I Goku's >>> Jiren.

Jiren's above Time itself. Son Goku's above Jiren. Infinite Zamasu tried becoming the Universe itself, and nearly succeeded. Jiren's beyond that.

Jiren shook a realm of nothingness by him just walking. Toppo in his GoD mode nearly destroyed the entire Realm of Void itself VIA a simple Hakai. Vegeta in SSBE BARELY beat em. However, Jiren was able to EASILY take on both SSBKKx20 Goku, Golden Freeza, 17, and SSBE Vegeta all on his own. All of which while not even trying, ONCE!

Besides, Goku's Universal Feats were from the beginning of Super. We're talking the End of Super here. Also, Goku has the blitz speed of "WTF"! Easily mastering Ultra Instinct, and defeating Jiren in combat throughout the span of...well...a minute and 30 seconds. That's...fast.
 
"Jiren's above Time itself."

Stop bringing this up.

"Jiren shook a realm of nothingness by him just walking."

Punching, and that's only High 3-A at best.

"Toppo in his GoD mode nearly destroyed the entire Realm of Void itself VIA a simple Hakai."

Still High 3-A.

"Vegeta in SSBE BARELY beat em. However, Jiren was able to EASILY take on both SSBKKx20 Goku, Golden Freeza, 17, and SSBE Vegeta all on his own. All of which while not even trying, ONCE!"

Completely irrelevant.

"Besides, Goku's Universal Feats were from the beginning of Super. We're talking the End of Super here."

That's 3-A. This is Low 2-C.

"Also, Goku has the blitz speed of "WTF"! Easily mastering Ultra Instinct, and defeating Jiren in combat throughout the span of...well...a minute and 30 seconds. That's...fast. "

All fights in DB take place in short periods of time. That's not an argument.
 
I think Goku's shown more feats. I know that Verth's impressive and all, but...when you really think about it. What Verth did is what Zamasu was trying to do in the Future Trunks Arc. And...well...Infinite Zamasu isn't even as granduer as Jiren.

And yes, I would count Infinite Zamasu as part of Goku's most powerful opponents, since he has faced him in combat before. However, due to different scans and such, it's CONFIRMED that Jiren is Gokus most powerful opponent. He's NEVER faced a guy as powerful as him. He and Vegeta confirm that his energy alone was something they've never faced before. And considering they can sense the Ki of deities (AKA, ZAMASU/INFINITE ZAMASU), that's terrifying...
 
The Everlasting said:
"Jiren's above Time itself."

Stop bringing this up.

"Jiren shook a realm of nothingness by him just walking."

Punching, and that's only High 3-A at best.

"Toppo in his GoD mode nearly destroyed the entire Realm of Void itself VIA a simple Hakai."

Still High 3-A.

"Vegeta in SSBE BARELY beat em. However, Jiren was able to EASILY take on both SSBKKx20 Goku, Golden Freeza, 17, and SSBE Vegeta all on his own. All of which while not even trying, ONCE!"

Completely irrelevant.

"Besides, Goku's Universal Feats were from the beginning of Super. We're talking the End of Super here."

That's 3-A. This is Low 2-C.

"Also, Goku has the blitz speed of "WTF"! Easily mastering Ultra Instinct, and defeating Jiren in combat throughout the span of...well...a minute and 30 seconds. That's...fast. "

All fights in DB take place in short periods of time. That's not an argument.
Click to expand...
"Stop bringing this up"

You have no counter claim, so no.

"Still High 3-A"

Toppo's GoD mode is Low 2-C. Stop it.

"Completely irrelevant"

M.U.I's >>> Jiren. And Jiren's >>> Universe 7's fighters. Not irrelevant.

"That's 3-A, not Low 2-C"

No shit? Goku did a 3-A feat at the Beginning of Super. Now, we're FAR above Base Lined Low 2-C, and we're FAR above beings who tried becoming literal existence itself.

"All fights in DB take place in short periods of time"

Due to how the fighters are. This is why the Speed should somewhat be equalized.
 
And your second paragraph serves... what purpose? You're just staying what we've known for months.
 
...

You do realize that Verth did what Zamasu was trying to do, yes? AKA, becoming the Universe, as well as past present and future itself?!

And may I remind that you that Jiren's WAY beyond that? Ya know? SOMEONE M.U.I GOKU DEFEATED?!

"But, muh Immortality"

Hard to really care about that, when all you're doing is delaying the inevitable.
 
"You have no counter claim, so no."

How about "hyperbole"? You have no reason to bring up a statement that's not accepted.

"Toppo's GoD mode is Low 2-C. Stop it."

And the feat you bring up is High 3-A. I did not even imply GoD Toppo wasn't Low 2-C.

"M.U.I's >>> Jiren. And Jiren's >>> Universe 7's fighters. Not irrelevant."

When they're 3-A it is.

"No shit? Goku did a 3-A feat at the Beginning of Super. Now, we're FAR above Base Lined Low 2-C, and we're FAR above beings who tried becoming literal existence itself. "

Yes and bringing up his 3-A feats serves no purpose.
 
And, there goes my participation in this Thread. Just stating my vote. Verth's feats have been done before. And they're now basically surpassed. Next. (And, for those who don't yet get it, i'm voting Son Goku).
 
AntorusTheBurningThrone said:
...
You do realize that Verth did what Zamasu was trying to do, yes? AKA, becoming the Universe, as well as past present and future itself?!

And may I remind that you that Jiren's WAY beyond that? Ya know? SOMEONE M.U.I GOKU DEFEATED?!

"But, muh Immortality"

Hard to really care about that, when all you're doing is delaying the inevitable.
Click to expand...
Stop with the random all-caps, seriously.

Honestly debating with you is just plain obnoxious, I'm sorry.
 
The Everlasting said:
"You have no counter claim, so no."
How about "hyperbole"? You have no reason to bring up a statement that's not accepted.

"Toppo's GoD mode is Low 2-C. Stop it."

And the feat you bring up is High 3-A. I did not even imply GoD Toppo wasn't Low 2-C.

"M.U.I's >>> Jiren. And Jiren's >>> Universe 7's fighters. Not irrelevant."

When they're 3-A it is.

"No shit? Goku did a 3-A feat at the Beginning of Super. Now, we're FAR above Base Lined Low 2-C, and we're FAR above beings who tried becoming literal existence itself. "

Yes and bringing up his 3-A feats serves no purpose.
Click to expand...
"Hyperbole" No. Confirmed. You can't prove that it's Hyperbole.

"And the feat you bring up is High 3-A" Some of his Low 2-C Feats are because of the whole Realm of Void thing.

"When they're 3-A, it is". SSBE Vegeta and SSBKKx20 Goku were Low 2-C during that time. Not 3-A. Only 2 were 3-A, and both were in the backround.

"And bringing up his 3-A feats serves no purpose"

Crop brought it up. I only expanded upon it.
 
The Everlasting said:
AntorusTheBurningThrone said:
...
You do realize that Verth did what Zamasu was trying to do, yes? AKA, becoming the Universe, as well as past present and future itself?!

And may I remind that you that Jiren's WAY beyond that? Ya know? SOMEONE M.U.I GOKU DEFEATED?!

"But, muh Immortality"

Hard to really care about that, when all you're doing is delaying the inevitable.
Click to expand...
Stop with the random all-caps, seriously.
Honestly debating with you is just plain obnoxious, I'm sorry.
Click to expand...
Is it obnoxious cause I keep arguing back, or is it obnoxious cause you know you can't counter me properly? Pick your poison.
 
I can prove it by him even being affected by the Cage of Time to begin with and time still passing in the tournament's countdown.

Anything with the Wold of Void is High 3-A.

You still have no reason to bring up 17 and Golden Frieza.
 
"I can prove it with blah blah blah"

And yet, beings like Homura/Madoka are abstract, yet they still flow throughout their Universes' Time range. Other 2-C's+ are beyond time, yet still thrive within their Time range. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l35O9HH9neE&t=1s Try to counter this VIA official proof. Please. I'll wait.

"Anything with the World of Void is High 3-A"

And yet Toppo's a Low 2-C cause of a High 3-A feat? lel...

Also, anything above Infinite Zamasu's Low 2-C. This includes a GoD.

"You have no reason to bring up 17, and Golden Freeza"

You're right, I don't. That's why i'm mostly bringing up Goku and Vegeta instead.
 
I don't even know what you're talking about with the PMMM comparsion, and I'm a PMMM supporter.
 
SomebodyData said:
I don't even know what you're talking about with the PMMM comparsion, and I'm a PMMM supporter.
Click to expand...
I was mostly just using a comparasion stating that beings beyond concepts itself can still be affected by the flow ways of Time. Unless i'm wrong on that. And if so, please explain.
 
Look. I'm not saying that Verth stands no chance. I'm just saying that Goku would win Mid/High Diff. Mostly Mid/High due to her Type 1-8 Immortality (Something of which I don't think Goku could beat).

So, it's hard. On one hand, Goku's done more feats. While on the otherhand, Verth does have Immortality. Though, at the end of the day, I would say Son Goku, either with Verth giving up, or something like that.
 
Well, yeah some beings can be. But the PMMM characters you used as an example, aren't in their abstract forms.

Futhermore, those beings affected are affected because they are limited, like Ever and the vsbattles profiles are stating Jiren is, if anything, you're proving his point.
 
SomebodyData said:
Well, yeah some beings can be. But the PMMM characters you used as an example, aren't in their abstract forms.
Futhermore, those beings affected are affected because they are limited, like Ever and the vsbattles profiles are stating Jiren is, if anything, you're proving his point.
Click to expand...
I mean, I would be proving his point. But...again. Toriyama would need to confirm that for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l35O9HH9neE&t=1s

Nothing against you. That's just what the Official subs state.
 
Who am I going to trust more? Toei Animation, who were given specific bullet points by Toriyama on how to write the damn show, or some guy arguing with me on VSwiki?

I'd rather go with the above.
 
Judging from her AP reasoning, Verthandi is only around baseline or higher than that. Goku stomps someone (Limit Breaker Jiren) who stomps someone (100% Jiren) who is superior to someone (3rd UIO Goku) who stomps someone (Kefla) who is superior in AP to someone (2nd UIO Goku) who is superior to someone (1st UIO Goku) who is equal to someone (Jiren) who is stated superior to someone (Infinite Zamasu) that's baseline.

Oh and I ignored SSB Kaiokenx20 (Low 2-C) Goku that's immediately himself at minimum 20x baseline. so yeah.

Goku has a huge chain of stomps and superiors while Verthandi, from the reasoning given, completely pales in comparison. I have no idea why people are arguing about Goku's AP as if he's near baseline or something. We're well beyond that point.
 
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