Guts vs Ludwig, The Holy Blade

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Guts vs. Ludwig, The Holy Blade

• Guts' Black Swordsman key is used (8-A)
• Speed is equalized
• Location: Central Yharnam

Bigg sword: 9 (FireSwordHero, Eseseso, Armorchompy, XSOULOFCINDERX, AThe1412, Nierre, Epiccheev, DaReaperMan, Naitodesu)

Bigg(er) sword: 0

Inconclusive: 0

 

[Armorchompy]

based

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Pretty interesting match. So it's basically can guts finish Ludwig off through his healing before the berserker armour causes him to take too much damage. I wanna give it to Guts via him having experience fighting against large beast like opponents that wield weapons (Apostles) and using his acrobatics to land repeated visceral strikes on Ludwig.

However if Ludwig is able to last long enough he takes the W.

Overall I leaning to Guts.

 

[Chariot190]

Ludwig off through his healing

Does Ludwig resist the Dragon Slayer's soul damage that causes wounds to remain or reopen? Because that could be devasting and negate healing to an extent.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Pretty interesting match. So it's basically can guts finish Ludwig off through his healing before the berserker armour causes him to take too much damage. I wanna give it to Guts via him having experience fighting against large beast like opponents that wield weapons (Apostles) and using his acrobatics to land repeated visceral strikes on Ludwig.

However if Ludwig is able to last long enough he takes the W.

Overall I leaning to Guts.

Eeeeeh Ludwig has his fair share of experince fighting Guts-sized opponents who use Guts' tactics, seeing as he canonically killed so many hunters while in the Hunter's Nightmare that their bodies made a river of blood that cut through the landscape

Also Ludwig having absurd Type 2

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Does Ludwig resist the Dragon Slayer's soul damage that causes wounds to remain or reopen? Because that could be devasting and negate healing to an extent.

Technically Ludwig doesnt even need his healing, Beasts in Bloodborne have absurd Type 2 immortality, Ludwig himself was surviving as a severed head, and Beasts far inferior to him can keep fighting after being split in half at the waist, having their head and torso cleaved in half vertically, having organs ripped out, being decapitated, up to Darkbeasts being alive after being reduced to just a pair of finger bones

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Eeeeeh Ludwig has his fair share of experince fighting Guts-sized opponents who use Guts' tactics, seeing as he canonically killed so many hunters while in the Hunter's Nightmare that their bodies made a river of blood that cut through the landscape

Also Ludwig having absurd Type 2

I feel like not against people with the Acrobatics of Guts in Berserker Armour but I could be wrong.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I feel like not against people with the Acrobatics of Guts in Berserker Armour but I could be wrong.

Acrobatics are a pretty big part of Bloodborne and the fighting style of Hunters, theyre all pretty damn good at it

Movement

Movement & iFrames Bloodborne Wiki » Game Mechanics » Movement & iFrames Source ❘ Edit ❘ Site...

www.bloodborne-wiki.com

 

[Chariot190]

Acrobatics are a pretty big part of Bloodborne and the fighting style of Hunters, theyre all pretty damn good at it

Movement

Movement & iFrames Bloodborne Wiki » Game Mechanics » Movement & iFrames Source ❘ Edit ❘ Site...

www.bloodborne-wiki.com

They have good movement, but it still pales in comparison to Guts' own.
Having good movement isn't the same as having comparable movement.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

They have good movement, but it still pales in comparison to Guts' own.
Having good movement isn't the same as having comparable movement.

How so?

 

[Chariot190]

How so?

What do you mean how so? Guts in the armor is like a chimp on crack who just finished watching Spiderman. Dude zips around and bounces off shit while doing ten fucktillion flips. No hunter in bloodborne has feats of comparable acrobatics or mobility, the best thing they have is the quick step.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

What do you mean how so? Guts in the armor is like a chimp on crack who just finished watching Spiderman. Dude zips around and bounces off shit while doing ten fucktillion flips. No hunter in bloodborne has feats of comparable acrobatics or mobility, the best thing they have is the quick step.

How so as in scans please lol

 

[Armorchompy]

Guts upscales from 119.07 Tons and becomes stronger with the Berserk Armor, Ludwig is 130 tons, dunno about upscaling

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Guts upscales from 119.07 Tons and becomes stronger with the Berserk Armor, Ludwig is 130 tons, dunno about upscaling

Ludwig upscales but by an unknown amount, no oneshots or stomps or anything, he's just stronger than the meteors that the hunters can kinda just withstand with relatively little issue

 

[Armorchompy]

Ludwig upscales but by an unknown amount, no oneshots or stomps or anything, he's just stronger than the meteors that the hunters can kinda just withstand with relatively little issue

I'd give Guts a bit of an advantage when he puts on the armor in that regard then

Also, how does Guts' probability manip work?

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Also, how does Guts' probability manip work?

This is a really good question. It's super unclear on his profile.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

This is a really good question. It's super unclear on his profile.

Its like that on purpose to distract people from realizing it doesnt actually do anything ovo

 

[Armorchompy]

let's not

 

[Chariot190]

How so as in scans please lol

The profiles have some examples, just check there (maybe not the best examples, I would've at least listed off the tentacle feats bouncing but eh, still beer than what the Hunters can do, especially no-name ones), but for a more visual display, this should convey how jumpy Guts is


It's from a game, but visual evidence in motion is better at conveying, and every move and action is ripped straight from the manga so none of that shit is OC. It's pretty accurate to how he moves around and if anything I'd actually say it downplays it a bit given in the manga he's leaped far larger distances at burst speed both vertically and horizontally before (Sea God Arc, look it up if you want) while in-game it's mostly quick jerking leaps.
No hunter even comes close.

Eeeeeh Ludwig has his fair share of experince fighting Guts-sized opponents who use Guts' tactics, seeing as he canonically killed so many hunters while in the Hunter's Nightmare that their bodies made a river of blood that cut through the landscape

Him being reduced to a head kinda completely incapacitated him, and then a crossbolt to the head killed him (I think it was a crossbolt anyway). They have good type 2 immortality, but the damage they take can still hinder them and in Ludwg's case, extreme head damage is lethal.
Most apostles have some wacky Type 2 as well, though not to that extent, so Guts ain't gonna be taken aback when a stab through the torso doesn't do him in, if anything that's something he'd just assume by default.

He'd need his healing if Guts chops off limbs or something as well, meanwhile Guts himself has healing in the form of fairy dust, though it's not unlimited, he has quite a bit of it and it still lets him heal grave wounds (Low-Mid Regen, the same as Ludwig's ironically). This actually enables Guts to let himself take normally lethal blows if it'd allow him to land a winning hit as he can just heal it afterward with the dust, while Ludwig can't due to regen negation.

While Ludwig might be an immense pain in the ass to kill, Guts doesn't need to kill to win, incapping is also a viable win condition, something the DS can do as it negates healing (The wounds it inflicts also come with unbearable pain due to damaging the soul, Ludwig might be fine with grotesque bodily damage, but bro hasn't experience astral wounds so I'm not sure how well he'd cope).

Eeeeeh Ludwig has his fair share of experince fighting Guts-sized opponents who use Guts' tactics, seeing as he canonically killed so many hunters while in the Hunter's Nightmare that their bodies made a river of blood that cut through the landscape

To be completely fair, Guts is far more mobile, athletic, and has more versatility than any normal hunter Ludwig has killed (assuming they're comparable to the Hunter enemies in the DLC that roam around that area, they're pretty limited in options), of which the majority were no-name fodder.
The only known Hunter worth a damn that Ludwig has fought is the Good Hunter, who obviously beats out Guts in versatility and whatnot, but we have no idea if Ludwig canonically killed him, for all we know he beat him in one try and called it a day (I'd actually wager this as if the Hunter died, the fight gets reset even if they've hit phase 2, and it makes absolutely no sense for Ludwig to go back to being a near mindless beast upon Hunter getting killed, only for him to get his ass kicked again, go through the guiding moonlight cutscene again, as if he forgot he just did all that a minute ago).

While Guts' experience with creatures like Ludwig are dealing with those above him, not below, day in and day out. Both Guts and Ludwig have their killcounts numbering in the tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands, but what matters more is what those kills can do, not pure numbers.

Guts also has his arm cannon which can blow giant holes through those who outstat him, meaning if Ludwig gets hit by it, which he very well might, it ain't something he'd just walk off, it'd at the very least be temporarily crippling long enough for Guts to land in some maiming his with DS. He also has a cross-bolt and bombs but they won't do much, like maybe he could take out Ludwig's eyes with the bolts and use that window of time to land some hits in while he heals but eh. Bombs are mostly useless.

Ludwig's main issue to deal with is how someone far more mobile than anything he's ever fought, has a sword that can tank anything Ludwig throws out that also inflicts inane pain and wounds that will never heal, a cannon that can one-shot those stronger than Guts, the fact Guts is legitimately more skilled than this iteration of Ludwig and has ample experience dealing with large beasts and demons who outstat him while Ludwig's experience involves mostly beating up random hunters and then dying to the only relevant hunter we know he's fought.

That's all in base though, with the armor on he becomes much stronger to the point he can damage or one-shot apostles his base couldn't even scratch (See him damaging Grunbeld, profile should have scans of this), he also becomes faster (Though not to a blitz level degree, he's still the same tier, just swifter), and will fight till he's effectively dead, and will even let himself get maimed just to get good hits in.

I'm not voting yet but ehhhh, Ludwig's most threatening thing is the energy beams he has, but they have a pretty big tell and Guts has seen weird energy swords before (Thanks Skull Knight).

Also, how does Guts' probability manip work?

Think of it as just extreme luck and contrivances, but not actually in a good way, it just prevents him from dying, mostly so he can suffer more long-term. Unironically the world hates his ass so much it won't let him die.
The answer is it's super vague though because anything to do with causality is deliberately vague as **** in Berserk to avoid plot spoilers, berserk even has a whole chapter removed from future releases because it revealed too much with how the world worked for that point in the story. We know it exists and plays into why he hasn't died 1000 times over, but causality in Berserk is pretty wild, i migh be vague as **** but we know how contrived it can be at least, just see the journey Griffith's behelit took to be with him in the right place, at the right time the exact moment leading up to becoming Femto after losing it a year prior. Guts at the moment is entwined with a behelit's journey actually, he's been carrying a behelit since the start of the manga for someone future cause, a thing that's still ongoing and was even pointed ou that's basically what he's doing a handful of chapters ago.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Why are you like this? In fact, for someone who needs scans of something so intrinsic as acrobatics, the fact you'd say something about a far more complex and nuanced ability is pretty disrespectful. If anything it'd need a whole cosmology blog not just a few stray scans as it's an overarching thing.

My guy, the strike through ans 'ovo' mean it was a joke

 

[Chariot190]

That's a joke in poor taste but let's leave it at that then

 

[Armorchompy]

Leaning towards Guts too but I'll wait for a counterargument

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The profiles have some examples, just check there (maybe not the best examples, I would've at least listed off the tentacle feats bouncing but eh, still beer than what the Hunters can do, especially no-name ones), but for a more visual display, this should convey how jumpy Guts is


It's from a game, but visual evidence in motion is better at conveying, and every move and action is ripped straight from the manga so none of that shit is OC. It's pretty accurate to how he moves around and if anything I'd actually say it downplays it a bit given in the manga he's leaped far larger distances at burst speed both vertically and horizontally before (Sea God Arc, look it up if you want) while in-game it's mostly quick jerking leaps.
No hunter even comes close.

Do you have a specific timestamp? Watching through this video this is all the exact same stuff that Hunters do in Bloodborne

Him being reduced to a head kinda completely incapacitated him, and then a crossbolt to the head killed him (I think it was a crossbolt anyway). They have good type 2 immortality, but the damage they take can still hinder them and in Ludwg's case, extreme head damage is lethal.
Most apostles have some wacky Type 2 as well, though not to that extent, so Guts ain't gonna be taken aback when a stab through the torso doesn't do him in, if anything that's something he'd just assume by default.

He'd need his healing if Guts chops off limbs or something as well, meanwhile Guts himself has healing in the form of fairy dust, though it's not unlimited, he has quite a bit of it and it still lets him heal grave wounds (Low-Mid Regen, the same as Ludwig's ironically). This actually enables Guts to let himself take normally lethal blows if it'd allow him to land a winning hit as he can just heal it afterward with the dust, while Ludwig can't due to regen negation.

While Ludwig might be an immense pain in the ass to kill, Guts doesn't need to kill to win, incapping is also a viable win condition, something the DS can do as it negates healing (The wounds it inflicts also come with unbearable pain due to damaging the soul, Ludwig might be fine with grotesque bodily damage, but bro hasn't experience astral wounds so I'm not sure how well he'd cope).

Ludwig also has active healing on top of the passive healing from the Rally mechanic, said healing is able to restore the damage from the Hunter destroying his limbs and performing visceral attacks on him. Also the Hunter can kill souls for what its worth.

To be completely fair, Guts is far more mobile, athletic, and has more versatility than any normal hunter Ludwig has killed (assuming they're comparable to the Hunter enemies in the DLC that roam around that area, they're pretty limited in options), of which the majority were no-name fodder.

Debatable

The only known Hunter worth a damn that Ludwig has fought is the Good Hunter, who obviously beats out Guts in versatility and whatnot, but we have no idea if Ludwig canonically killed him, for all we know he beat him in one try and called it a day (I'd actually wager this as if the Hunter died, the fight gets reset even if they've hit phase 2, and it makes absolutely no sense for Ludwig to go back to being a near mindless beast upon Hunter getting killed, only for him to get his ass kicked again, go through the guiding moonlight cutscene again, as if he forgot he just did all that a minute ago).

I mean...no? The Hunter canonically rewinds time every time he dies, Ludwig being reset is completely reasonable.

While Guts' experience with creatures like Ludwig are dealing with those above him, not below, day in and day out. Both Guts and Ludwig have their killcounts numbering in the tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands, but what matters more is what those kills can do, not pure numbers.

Guts also has his arm cannon which can blow giant holes through those who outstat him, meaning if Ludwig gets hit by it, which he very well might, it ain't something he'd just walk off, it'd at the very least be temporarily crippling long enough for Guts to land in some maiming his with DS. He also has a cross-bolt and bombs but they won't do much, like maybe he could take out Ludwig's eyes with the bolts and use that window of time to land some hits in while he heals but eh. Bombs are mostly useless.

Cannon and Church Cannon say hello

Ludwig's main issue to deal with is how someone far more mobile than anything he's ever fought, has a sword that can tank anything Ludwig throws out that also inflicts inane pain and wounds that will never heal, a cannon that can one-shot those stronger than Guts, the fact Guts is legitimately more skilled than this iteration of Ludwig and has ample experience dealing with large beasts and demons who outstat him while Ludwig's experience involves mostly beating up random hunters and then dying to the only relevant hunter we know he's fought.

Still not buying Guts being moe mobile or agile than the Hunters if that video above is what we're basing it on, and assuming hes starting in Holy Blade, most of his attacks have pretty sizeable range and AoE to go along with his sword swings

 

[Armorchompy]

Do you have a specific timestamp? Watching through this video this is all the exact same stuff that Hunters do in Bloodborne

Could you post scans?

Ludwig also has active healing on top of the passive healing from the Rally mechanic, said healing is able to restore the damage from the Hunter destroying his limbs and performing visceral attacks on him. Also the Hunter can kill souls for what its worth.

I mean, regen neg

Cannon and Church Cannon say hello

The existence of a cannon in Bloodborne doesn't really mean that much.

 

[Chariot190]

Do you have a specific timestamp? Watching through this video this is all the exact same stuff that Hunters do in Bloodborne

Literally nobody in Bloodborne does that Weekly, everyone's played the game.


And here's just one example that kinda > any Hunter's acrobatic feats.

Ludwig also has active healing on top of the passive healing from the Rally mechanic, said healing is able to restore the damage from the Hunter destroying his limbs and performing visceral attacks on him. Also the Hunter can kill souls for what its worth.

Dragon Slayer cause wounds on the astral plane and soul, causing wounds, that even if healed, to open up again.
Major wounds are effectively regeneration negation as established in his notes and profile. Ludwig isn't healing any wound from DS. This rebuttal doesn't work.
The hunter can kill souls, but his every attack doesnt cause permanent soul damage that forces the body to comply with the damage onto the soul. Even Guts' Low-Mid healing dust, the same as Ludwig's healing (both Low-Mid), isn't a real solution for just a basic cut. It's actually why he needed the armor.

Cannon and Church Cannon say hello

Since when did those explicitly blow giant gaping holes through those comparable to hunter? They hurt those comparable, but they do not one shot or gore (not withstanding did Hunter even bring that to Ludwig canonically?). They're definitely comparable weapons in function but Guts' scales way above his base stats and can completely turn around a fight if not just kill flat-out those on his level (He can also use it to bolster his velocity for one giant ultra swing).

Still not buying Guts being moe mobile or agile than the Hunters if that video above is what we're basing it on, and assuming hes starting in Holy Blade, most of his attacks have pretty sizeable range and AoE to go along with his sword swings

Well good on you, but I'm not quite so sure that's debatable.
And yes, the beams are an issue, but they have massive tells and signs.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean...no? The Hunter canonically rewinds time every time he dies, Ludwig being reset is completely reasonable.

Rewind time? Well regardless, do we have proof he actually lost that fight?

 

[Armorchompy]

everyone's played the game.

 

[Chariot190]

The poor do not count

 

[FireSwordHero]

Alright I'll take a swing at this fight.

So right off the bat AP. Ludwig upscales from 130 Tons at his lowest to 311 tons at his highest, while Guts AP upscales to 119 tons of TNT. Assuming the Low-end for Ludwig (because this was the value accepted on the Bloodborne page), Guts would be comparable in power in his base, but would likely outscale him when he dons the Berserker Armour as it was states this his power is amplified by a significant yet unknown degree. So lets just say they are about equal in AP when Guts is in his base yet is above Ludwig when using the armour.

AP aside, lets get into abilities and Hax. As Weekly stated earlier, Ludwig has type 2 immortality, so even with Guts Dragon Slayer that can leave non-heal-able injuries, Ludwig won't have to worry much about any cuts that Guts could land on him, and any blood lost can simple be reabsorbed by Ludwig. So the on that note, Gut would have to be able to damage him extensively enough to destroy him. On a small flipside however, Ludwig himself wouldn't be able to kill Guts with one hit either, not just because of his immense tolerance to pain and his supernatural luck, but also thanks to the healing power of Elf Dust that Guts carries around on him.

However, this is where things start going the other way. Ludwig is by all means a master swordsman, but so is Guts, who not only carries the Dragonslayer, but also other weapons such as the repeater crossbow, daggers, throwing knives, minature bombs and of course the massive ****-off hand canon thanks to his cyborg arm, so Arsenal wise Guts takes this (though if anyone were to ask me, I would think Guts would only fight with his Dragonslayer once he Ludwig regains his sanity, its more fitting that way storywise.)

Guts is also incredibly acrobatic as well. Even during the Beginning of the Golden Age, long before he became the Black Swordsman, Gut was capable of doing incredible acrobatic feats, such as leaping and flipping off the heads of monsters and jumping between rooftops. He should be much superior in terms of acrobatics then he was in his first key. Given that hunter acrobatics in Bloodborne concists of mainly rolling and Ludwig canonically losing to a person who probably fat rolls, against a far more acrobatic warrior like Guts, dodging his attacks would be very easy to the Black Swordsman. Of course, this isnt factoring Gut's Analytical Prediction, allowing Guts to identify both Ludwig's weaknesses and his tactics that he uses, which is made easier by the fact that Bloodborne bosses have very obvious attack signals.

Finally, the biggest nail in Ludwig's oversized coffin is the Berserker Armour. Sure it will probably kill Guts by using it, but between granting Guts a massive AP amp, along with massively increasing his Acrobatic capabilities, Ludwig will be shredded far before that would happen. Also it grants Gut's his own type 2 immortality, so if Gut's couldn't survive one of Ludwig's strikes before, he definetely can now.

Definetely not a stomp by any means, but Guts wins this by having comparable AP in base, having a superior arsenal and helpful items, acrobatics that would put The Hunter to shame, and finally the most badass looking armour that grants Guts even more AP and mobility, and his own type 2 immortality to withstand any strike Ludwig can manage to hit him with.

 

[Eseseso]

Alright I'll take a swing at this fight.

So right off the bat AP. Ludwig upscales from 130 Tons at his lowest to 311 tons at his highest, while Guts AP upscales to 119 tons of TNT. Assuming the Low-end for Ludwig (because this was the value accepted on the Bloodborne page), Guts would be comparable in power in his base, but would likely outscale him when he dons the Berserker Armour as it was states this his power is amplified by a significant yet unknown degree. So lets just say they are about equal in AP when Guts is in his base yet is above Ludwig when using the armour.

AP aside, lets get into abilities and Hax. As Weekly stated earlier, Ludwig has type 2 immortality, so even with Guts Dragon Slayer that can leave non-heal-able injuries, Ludwig won't have to worry much about any cuts that Guts could land on him, and any blood lost can simple be reabsorbed by Ludwig. So the on that note, Gut would have to be able to damage him extensively enough to destroy him. On a small flipside however, Ludwig himself wouldn't be able to kill Guts with one hit either, not just because of his immense tolerance to pain and his supernatural luck, but also thanks to the healing power of Elf Dust that Guts carries around on him.

However, this is where things start going the other way. Ludwig is by all means a master swordsman, but so is Guts, who not only carries the Dragonslayer, but also other weapons such as the repeater crossbow, daggers, throwing knives, minature bombs and of course the massive ****-off hand canon thanks to his cyborg arm, so Arsenal wise Guts takes this (though if anyone were to ask me, I would think Guts would only fight with his Dragonslayer once he Ludwig regains his sanity, its more fitting that way storywise.)

Guts is also incredibly acrobatic as well. Even during the Beginning of the Golden Age, long before he became the Black Swordsman, Gut was capable of doing incredible acrobatic feats, such as leaping and flipping off the heads of monsters and jumping between rooftops. He should be much superior in terms of acrobatics then he was in his first key. Given that hunter acrobatics in Bloodborne concists of mainly rolling and Ludwig canonically losing to a person who probably fat rolls, against a far more acrobatic warrior like Guts, dodging his attacks would be very easy to the Black Swordsman. Of course, this isnt factoring Gut's Analytical Prediction, allowing Guts to identify both Ludwig's weaknesses and his tactics that he uses, which is made easier by the fact that Bloodborne bosses have very obvious attack signals.

Finally, the biggest nail in Ludwig's oversized coffin is the Berserker Armour. Sure it will probably kill Guts by using it, but between granting Guts a massive AP amp, along with massively increasing his Acrobatic capabilities, Ludwig will be shredded far before that would happen. Also it grants Gut's his own type 2 immortality, so if Gut's couldn't survive one of Ludwig's strikes before, he definetely can now.

Definetely not a stomp by any means, but Guts wins this by having comparable AP in base, having a superior arsenal and helpful items, acrobatics that would put The Hunter to shame, and finally the most badass looking armour that grants Guts even more AP and mobility, and his own type 2 immortality to withstand any strike Ludwig can manage to hit him with.

Guts FRA

 

[Armorchompy]

Seems reasonable, I'll FRA Guts for now

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Guts FRA.

 

[AThe1412]

The Black Swordsman FRA. Man, I can't get over how good this fight actually is and how the two characters would interact with each other.

 

[Nierre]

Guts fra

definitely one of the best thematic matches ive seen in a bit

 

[Epiccheev]

Guts FRA

 

[DaReaperMan]

Guts FRA

I like Ludwig, I really do, but even if he lasts long enough to regain his sanity there ain't no way he's winning over 50% of the time lol

Guts' profile really needs a rework though

 

[Naito-desu]

Guts FRA

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Guts FRA