Guilty Gear Scaling Revision (Part 4): The God Tiers

[CloverDragon03]

Guess who's back? Back again.

So as you can see from the title, this part of the scaling revisions for Guilty Gear will focus on the god tiers... kinda. See, there may potentially be more god tiers in this verse than I thought, based on some findings of mine. However, that's not what I want to focus on for now. I want to focus on reinforcing justifications of the existing god tiers, along with making some other miscellaneous changes related to them.

First up, the god tiers themselves. The rewritten justifications for them can be found here. As you can see, the only one that really has Low 1-C physical stats at the moment is Merged I-No.

As for the other changes, they are twofold. First off, I'd like to propose the removal of I-No's "Suppressing her power while merged with Happy Chaos" key, seen on her profile. Having watched the story of Guilty Gear Strive (this merged state only appearing in Chapter 9), I can confirm that this key just... doesn't exist. I-No never suppresses her power while in this state. This thread is where the suppressed key was accepted, with this reasoning:

I-No should get two keys as a goddess form: she actively represses herself at the beginning out of fear of losing her own identity. Had she not chickened out, she'd have become, as Ariels called her, a being that surpassed time.

Except, this is just... blatantly not the case. The whole story of Strive revolves around I-No trying to regain her power specifically because she wanted to use it to find the answer to who she truly is. So not only does the justification have zero scans backing it up, but it goes entirely against the story of Strive to begin with.

My last proposal is that, in response to this key removal, any scaling to Merged I-No should be (at least temporarily) removed. The only exception is Sol's Zeal-Powered Outrage, since he just straight up killed her. There's a whole rabbit hole of things involving Merged I-No's scaling to other characters, and I'd rather let that be handled in another thread. This would namely involve removing any justifications involving Merged I-No from Ky's Dragon Install justification.

And that's about it, so I'll open the floor to discussion from here on out!

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, DarkGrath, Planck69 (neutral on Immeasurable speed), Theglassman12 (except Immeasurable speed), Armorchompy (except Immeasurable speed)
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[Kenny Mccormick 0v0]

I agree.
Will you do speed upgrade next?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I agree.
Will you do speed revision next?

My current roadmap after this involves tackling characters that scale to Dragon Install Sol (like Dizzy and Asuka) and then tackling characters that may scale from Merged I-No. Currently, I'm thinking a number of characters will end up with Strive keys, but this could all change depending on what I find and the like. I think after that, we can safely move on to speed

 

[Kenny Mccormick 0v0]

My current roadmap after this involves tackling characters that scale to Dragon Install Sol (like Dizzy and Asuka) and then tackling characters that may scale from Merged I-No. Currently, I'm thinking a number of characters will end up with Strive keys, but this could all change depending on what I find and the like. I think after that, we can safely move on to speed

Nice

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Agree as well

 

[Theglassman12]

pretty sure transcending time wouldn’t count for immeasurable speed anymore. You need that to be elaborated to grant them the ability to move through time as a result. The rest looks fine.

Edit: the Elphelt stuff looks fine at a glance too.

 

[CloverDragon03]

pretty sure transcending time wouldn’t count for immeasurable speed anymore. You need that to be elaborated to grant them the ability to move through time as a result. The rest looks fine.

Not even if it's the very concept of time?

 

[Theglassman12]

Nah, if this was back in like pre 2020 era vs wiki it would’ve count for immeasurable, but now you flat out need to prove that them transcending time or the concept of time results in them moving through time with sheer movement. BlazBlue lost their immeasurable speed because of this reason.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'd admittedly like for more staff input on this because one agrees and another disagrees. Personally, I think it should, but meh

 

[Armorchompy]

Seems ok, Glass is right that I don't think this is speed anymore?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah I'd like some further clarification on this. Admittedly, I don't personally like the idea of this not being indicative of Immeasurable speed, but if that's the case then it is what it is ig

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Transcending Time" typically just means they have Time Travel, but it doesn't automatically translate to Immeasurable combat speed. Though in this case, the concept of time is implied; I vaguely recall Ultima making statements that transcending the entire concept of time sounds "Blatant", but I am unsure if he ever really tackled that.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Okay, so I found some additional evidence. Upon achieving godhood, I-No frees all of mankind from the shackles of time, and she states that this is part of her plan to grant mankind the same power and existence she has, implying that she herself exists free of the shackles of time

I've also added this to the sandbox

 

[CloverDragon03]

Bump

 

[DarkGrath]

I've been asked to reply here.

The Low 1-C matter is completely fine.

The Immeasurable speed concerns brought up are unfortunately not concerns I'm not well-versed in; if there are particular precedents around what levels of evidence can or cannot be accepted, I don't know what they are. I can only look at what has been said and what the definitions are here, the most relevant being the definition of Immeasurable speed:

Immeasurable (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed.)

I suspect what Glassman is alluding to above is the "movement" part. That is, 'transcending time', completely literally, isn't enough unless you demonstrate moving in such a way that indicates time is not a factor in your movement capacities.

This would be all fine by itself, but the part that makes me scratch my head is how exactly you would 'transcend time' while also being bound by it in your movement capacities - maybe my framing of the concepts here is just off-kilter, but I'd think of that as being a valid justification for Immeasurable by simply being a proof from contradiction.

In this case, it sounds like the scans are describing such a literal transcending of time - that I-No is no longer bound by time, and that she is changing the state of everyone else so that they will not be bound by the constraints of time and thus 'have the same power' she has. I feel it's also pertinent here that she specifically describes changing the state of everyone else so they will not be bound by 'location and time', implying this is particularly about space-time. How would you describe someone who is unbound by the constraints of space-time who is still forced to move through time linearly? In my mind, that's contradictory, and just as good - if not better - than a direct showing of moving through time non-linearly.

So I don't have any issue with Immeasurable speed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Okay, so I found some additional evidence. Upon achieving godhood, I-No frees all of mankind from the shackles of time, and she states that this is part of her plan to grant mankind the same power and existence she has, implying that she herself exists free of the shackles of time

I've also added this to the sandbox

I think "Free from the shackles of time" or being "Unbounded from the concept of time" are pretty textbook Immeasurable speed statements. So I am still pretty much in agreement with Immeasurable.

 

[Keeweed]

The outrage killing I-no was in and of itself one of the reasons she got this other key. A high 3-A attack killed her zero chance of survival. Along with her viewing the moon as an ultimatum that would kill everyone with Ky agreeing and believing her moving it to be up and impossible upon first seeing it. It would make no sense for Sol’s low 1-C stuff to be a suicide move that will kill everyone else in the cast combined, yet have like 5 characters scale to something above it. At least if I-no loses the lower key it 100% shouldn’t scale to anyone in any way since everything about Adam and Eve’s seeds and XRD 2’s story folds like a house of cards if they do. Plus the immeasurable speed is contradicted by Sol failing to keep up with a missile (that is vital to sign’s story) and only being able to do so when it first launches. Would be weird for Ky to be able to keep up with I-No at immeasurable speeds when a distance of a few kilometers nearly ended the world in sign.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The outrage killing I-no was in and of itself one of the reasons she got this other key. A high 3-A attack killed her zero chance of survival. Along with her viewing the moon as an ultimatum that would kill everyone with Ky agreeing and believing her moving it to be up and impossible upon first seeing it.

Neither of these really mean much. A statement of infinite power doesn't cap it at High 3-A. Low 1-C is also infinite power

In addition, Ky being surprised at I-No doing this isn't really an anti-feats either. Large scale stuff like this is surprising in general considering most characters' lackluster Destructive Capacity, and the moon dropping would in fact kill pretty much everyone. No normal human is withstanding that, not to mention it could destroy the planet which would leave the not normal people unable to survive in the vacuum of space

It would make no sense for Sol’s low 1-C stuff to be a suicide move that will kill everyone else in the cast combined, yet have like 5 characters scale to something above it.

How is this a suicide move? I honestly don't get what you're saying here

At least if I-no loses the lower key it 100% shouldn’t scale to anyone in any way since everything about Adam and Eve’s seeds and XRD 2’s story folds like a house of cards if they do.

Scaling will be hashed out later, but no, I don't think so. And the solution is absolutely not to make up a key that doesn't actually exist just in an attempt to rationalize things

Plus the immeasurable speed is contradicted by Sol failing to keep up with a missile (that is vital to sign’s story) and only being able to do so when it first launches. Would be weird for Ky to be able to keep up with I-No at immeasurable speeds when a distance of a few kilometers nearly ended the world in sign.

Didn't wanna spoil this so soon but eh, screw it, I'll nip this in the bud now: Nobody else is gonna scale to Immeasurable speed. The nature of I-No's world is that she freed everyone of the shackles of time - even her opponents. So we could say they're Immeasurable in this world but they have no such feats outside of it

(Also these things would still exist with the Relativistic+ ratings, that's just the nature of the beast)

 

[Keeweed]

Low 1-C is beyond an infinite amount of power by an indescribable degree, the weapon is directly described as a 100% high 3-A weapon in the very scene its used.

Ky very clearly was scared upon seeing it, thought it was impossible, and it would kill him. Saying other wise is to very clearly go against his reaction to the scene. He has a zoom up dedicated to showing him terrified of the moon.

Ky is specifically the basis of people scaling to I-no and the seed stuff will directly kill him. As shown by XRD 2 he and Sin are two of the primary people about to die from that move.

We contributed the low 1-C stuff to the big I-no in the background. That would explain how the small I-No you fight promptly has two anti feats and how Ky can even fight her. Plus the moon thing in and of itself would murder Ky by his own words. So if she truly wanted him dead he would be dead with no way to stop it, so she clearly didn’t want to just up and kill him. And I don’t mean with just the moon, she could use the power she used for the moon on him and be done with it since Ky specifically says that’s beyond him.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Low 1-C is beyond an infinite amount of power by an indescribable degree, the weapon is directly described as a 100% high 3-A weapon in the very scene its used.

Uh, no. Low 1-C absolutely is still infinite power. A higher degree of infinity, but infinity nonetheless. You can't really definitively claim it's supposed to be capped at High 3-A

Ky very clearly was scared upon seeing it, thought it was impossible, and it would kill him. Saying other wise is to very clearly go against his reaction to the scene. He has a zoom up dedicated to showing him terrified of the moon.

I believe I explained all this, though. Ky was shocked at her doing this - DC feats in Guilty Gear are generally lacking as is so no wonder. And yes, Ky would die from this because regardless, the planet wouldn't be able to withstand this and he can't survive in space.

You're basically giving your own interpretation and then saying it's wrong to disagree. It's not objectively fear he's showing, it can just as easily be shock/astonishment considering no one's ever shown to just suddenly bring the moon over like that.

Ky is specifically the basis of people scaling to I-no and the seed stuff will directly kill him. As shown by XRD 2 he and Sin are two of the primary people about to die from that move.

This was in Xrd, not Strive. And Absolute World is its own thing

We contributed the low 1-C stuff to the big I-no in the background. That would explain how the small I-No you fight promptly has two anti feats and how Ky can even fight her. Plus the moon thing in and of itself would murder Ky by his own words. So if she truly wanted him dead he would be dead with no way to stop it, so she clearly didn’t want to just up and kill him. And I don’t mean with just the moon, she could use the power she used for the moon on him and be done with it since Ky specifically says that’s beyond him.

The big I-No is simply a projection of herself. It's not like it's her real self or anything, otherwise they'd be targeting that. You're proposing we literally make stuff up in an attempt to rationalize things when we don't need to do all that - not to mention the horrible inaccuracy that making things up would cause

And yes, not everyone can bring the moon over and also prevent any resulting tidal waves. That's not an ability everyone has access to

 

[Theglassman12]

This would be all fine by itself, but the part that makes me scratch my head is how exactly you would 'transcend time' while also being bound by it in your movement capacities - maybe my framing of the concepts here is just off-kilter, but I'd think of that as being a valid justification for Immeasurable by simply being a proof from contradiction.

@DarkGrath something something transcending time can just be some other form of power like a higher dimensional superiority or Acausality or some shit like that. All I remember is when the changes to Immeasurable speed was made, they wanted to make it clear that being beyond time and space has to have some connection to your own movement speed being able to move through time, without it, it’s going into assumptions territory. Hence why characters like Nocturne from League of Legends got their immeasurable speed ratings nuked since all he had was a “transcending time” line and no elaboration on if he can actually move through time.

 

[Keeweed]

He clearly doesn’t react to that in that way. He was directly scared the instant he saw it, he thinks it’s an impossible move, and I-no believed it to be an ultimatum to him, which it is by his own words. It’s the most clear cut anti feat of all time.

 

[CloverDragon03]

He clearly doesn’t react to that in that way. He was directly scared the instant he saw it, he thinks it’s an impossible move, and I-no believed it to be an ultimatum to him, which it is by his own words. It’s the most clear cut anti feat of all time.

You keep saying "he clearly doesn't" but it's really not as clear cut as you make it seem. There's a million different things at play here

Also, I'd like to add that other characters' scaling from Merged I-No is perhaps outside the scope of this thread - and I intend to tackle that later. If this is all to say you disagree with removing her suppressed key, I guess I can't do much about that, but do keep in mind you're arguing in favor of making things up out of thin air

 

[Keeweed]

The projection of herself everywhere and the small avatar are inherently different things. But I more so care about scaling so I’ll just focus on saying. The upgrade relies on Ky not directly saying the impact will kill him in particular. But he doesn’t need to say that. He was terrified, I-no planned to kill him with it as the threat was to him, he agrees it will kill him. He says it will kill humanity and he’s part of humanity. Plus again it innately says I-no didn’t fight to kill because the ultimatum is to kill him, a move he agrees will, so if she wanted him dead by his own admission she could at any time.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Again, how other characters scale will be handled later. The fact of the matter, though, is that the Merged I-No we see (not the avatar, as that has zero basis) is Low 1-C. That simple

Edit: Also, it's not even an upgrade to begin with (aside from Sol's Zeal-Powered Outrage). It's more like a justification rework

 

[Keeweed]

Others were the ones that suggested the more omnipresent part of I-no to be the part that scales, so I will be fine if people disagree since it’s not like it matters too much (since I-no is still low 1-C in some way). I just heavily massively disagree with anyone scaling so I will be there for that thread.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah I don't really see why the big I-No would be the one with the Low 1-C stuff, personally. But I guess I also wasn't there when that was being argued so meh

 

[CloverDragon03]

@DarkGrath something something transcending time can just be some other form of power like a higher dimensional superiority or Acausality or some shit like that. All I remember is when the changes to Immeasurable speed was made, they wanted to make it clear that being beyond time and space has to have some connection to your own movement speed being able to move through time, without it, it’s going into assumptions territory. Hence why characters like Nocturne from League of Legends got their immeasurable speed ratings nuked since all he had was a “transcending time” line and no elaboration on if he can actually move through time.

Thing is, Nocturne only had that, while I-No blatantly is free of the shackles of location and time - which seems like textbook Immeasurable speed to me

 

[Keeweed]

I just will say, immeasurable speed as a thing needs a thread. Its rules are vague and contradicted often when it comes to this exact case. I’ve seen characters both have and not have immeasurable speed all the time for the justification of transcending time. Personally think transcending time as a concept should be immeasurable personally (for guilty gear in particular, guess it’s fine if it’s a special I-no thing).

 

[Theglassman12]

@CloverDragon03 like I said, now you need proof that it means moving through time because of said statement.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I disagree that this is necessary, and Immeasurable speed standards are so all over the place that I highly doubt this is actually the case

Edit: Looking at the Speed page, qualifying for Immeasurable speed is really just a matter of applying scrutiny to feats that qualify for it, like looking for signs of anti-feats or the feat being hyperbolic or exaggerated in some way. What you're suggesting is never actually said

 

[Theglassman12]

Well that's literally what happened with a lot of revisions, if you want to make a QnA post regarding immeasurable speed, by all means go for it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well those revisions might've had their own things about them, and maybe the feats themselves were more lackluster (like some vague notion of transcending time being all that's given)

 

[Theglassman12]

A couple of those series I've seen literally had the transcending time statements paired with the fact that they're able to go through time as a result. The main reason it wasn't accepted was because it wasn't shown that they were moving through time. So either something isn't being clear cut, which we might need a QnA post regarding this, or the page for immeasurable speed didn't really elaborate on these things.

 

[CloverDragon03]

a couple of those series I've seen literally had the transcending time statements paired with the fact that they're able to go through time as a result. The main reason it wasn't accepted was because it wasn't shown that they were moving through time. So either something isn't being clear cut, which we might need a QnA post regarding this, or the page for immeasurable speed didn't really elaborate on these things.

Well I'm a huge proponent of the fact that such series should've been given Immeasurable speed in that case, so like... I'd sooner chalk that up to a misapplication of our standards

 

[Theglassman12]

Maybe, but again, better to ask around to clarify on the standards so we actually know what's the standards and what isn't.

 

[Planck69]

Neutral to Immeasurable because frankly, it's currently a mess. The rest is fine.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Immeasurable is basically "Move through the temporal dimension through regular movements in the same way we move through spatial dimensions," or equivalents, so I don't believe that qualifies, no; the "Transcends the concept of time" has no context, and neither is the nature of this "freedom from location and time" elaborated on.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Immeasurable is basically "Move through the temporal dimension through regular movements in the same way we move through spatial dimensions," or equivalents, so I don't believe that qualifies, no; the "Transcends the concept of time" has no context, and neither is the nature of this "freedom from location and time" elaborated on.

What kind of elaboration would even be needed? Feels like Immeasurable speed standards are all over the place sometimes