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Because people want GT to win once.
And they can't.
And they can't.
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GT Goku vs. DBS Goku (F&G).
- Thread starter Omegas03
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GarrixianXD
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Goku getting a 2-C upgrade?
GarrixianXD
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Goku is unable to hit Goku and Goku would casually one-shot, stomp
Thus, Goku has God Ki while Goku doesn't
Thus, Goku has God Ki while Goku doesn't
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What are you even going on about? It doesn't say that it's casual because there's no need to. You can't really get to a higher speed tier from this by upscaling so it just being labelled as it is doesn't contradict anything.
What does stamina have to do with this? Whis just states it's the fastest he's ever gone, nothing even remotely implies that he would have tired or strained himself if he maintained it for a longer time. That's pure headcanon.
And what point are you even trying to prove with Whis sparring with Vados and Beerus? The latter is weaker than him and the former is somewhat stronger. All it proves is that either both of them are far slower (which definitely isn't the case with Vados) or that this was Whis' fastest travel speed but his combat speeds would actually be higher since he's clearly going to put more effort into fighting a fellow Angel than just traversing the universe. So end of the day, your argument implies that Whis could fight at far higher speeds than this.
Whatever speeds Whis used to spar Vados in the past was slower than the 498QD that is the fastest speed he's ever moved before. I'm not implying Whis' combat speed is faster since that would literally be contradicting his own statement.
GT Goku cant hurt Super Goku. Super Goku cant tag GT Goku. It comes down to time and stamina, where MUI would run out after less than a minute
What does stamina have to do with this? Whis just states it's the fastest he's ever gone, nothing even remotely implies that he would have tired or strained himself if he maintained it for a longer time. That's pure headcanon.
And what point are you even trying to prove with Whis sparring with Vados and Beerus? The latter is weaker than him and the former is somewhat stronger. All it proves is that either both of them are far slower (which definitely isn't the case with Vados) or that this was Whis' fastest travel speed but his combat speeds would actually be higher since he's clearly going to put more effort into fighting a fellow Angel than just traversing the universe. So end of the day, your argument implies that Whis could fight at far higher speeds than this.
Whatever speeds Whis used to spar Vados in the past was slower than the 498QD that is the fastest speed he's ever moved before. I'm not implying Whis' combat speed is faster since that would literally be contradicting his own statement.
GT Goku cant hurt Super Goku. Super Goku cant tag GT Goku. It comes down to time and stamina, where MUI would run out after less than a minute
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Yes, he would contradict himself, that's the point. You bring up the sparring as if it means anything when all it would imply is that against a comparable opponent he'd somehow use less speed than this.Jo-Smooth said:
And again, you haven't addressed how that is very likely not the upper limit of Whis' speed. Which is why even Base Goku scales to a casual Beerus , who's 3/4 of Whis flight speed. For goodness sake it's even on the profile. Yet you seem to assume that he's somehow hundreds of times slower when he'd still be faster than GTku if they scaled to the same feat (and I very much doubt that's what the profile is implying) since Superku scales to the longer scaling chain by a massive margin.
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Also, AGAIN, even if the time limit runs out it doesn't matter because even Base Goku is much stronger than GTku lol. Let alone that he'd have access to all of his other transformations up to SSBKKx20 XD.
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Whis' fastest speed he's ever gone is 498QD according to Whis himself. No headcanon or assumptions there, its stated in the calc linked to his profile. Whis sparred Vados in the past, trained Beerus etc, and yet we know he's never moved faster than 498QD. Beerus at his max speed is 3/4th of Whis' 498QD at his full speed. SSG/Bass Goku scales to casual Beerus, not Beerus' full speed which is 3/4th Whis. The Beerus that fought SSG Goku was immensely suppressed compared to his full speed which scales to 3/4th Whis. It even says on Goku's profile he scales to casual Beerus, not his full speed/power. Its not hard to understand
And GT Goku's scaling chain starts from the Cell Saga base level characters, and even that same Base Cell saga Goku with Kaioken x 100 would be comparable to Whis' full speed
As for what UchihaSlayer said about Goku after MUI runs out, Base Goku after dropping out of MUI is literally immobile and in intense pain. Like a worse version than the recoil of KaioKen. Its basically self incapcitation. And the highest he was able to go was SSJ1 after 17 and Frieza buying him time to rest and him pushing himself to his limit to ring out Jiren
And GT Goku's scaling chain starts from the Cell Saga base level characters, and even that same Base Cell saga Goku with Kaioken x 100 would be comparable to Whis' full speed
As for what UchihaSlayer said about Goku after MUI runs out, Base Goku after dropping out of MUI is literally immobile and in intense pain. Like a worse version than the recoil of KaioKen. Its basically self incapcitation. And the highest he was able to go was SSJ1 after 17 and Frieza buying him time to rest and him pushing himself to his limit to ring out Jiren
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Lots of headcanon because that calc isn't for that feat and we have no time frame for the 'fastest' feat, try again, the calced feat is about when they went to the kaioshin realm and King Kai's planete.
Lots of headcanon and assumption in going 'lol, ultra max speed possible' when Whis didn't make the slightest effort.
Lots of headcanon and assumption in going 'lol, ultra max speed possible' when Whis didn't make the slightest effort.
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It literally took him less than a minute to regain his ability to go SSG/SSB against Kefla. It's nowhere close to incapacitation.
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The fact that Whis himself states that's the fastest he ever moved before invalidates the argument that it's headcanon. It's your word based on your opinion vs the fact that was stated in the series itself by the very character who performed said feat
And MUI doesn't have the same drawback as UI, MUI had Goku's body bursting from the inside out and left him screaming in pain before being unable to move
https://youtu.be/5AiG7CUTTDs
And MUI doesn't have the same drawback as UI, MUI had Goku's body bursting from the inside out and left him screaming in pain before being unable to move
https://youtu.be/5AiG7CUTTDs
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@Jo-Smooth
WTF?
So your logic is; if a character that's among the most powerful in his setting, who never actually has to fight seriously, whose full capabilities we are never shown declares that they've never went that fast, without any exhaustion present being notable on thier person then we automatically assume that they were at their limit while doing so? Instead of the fact that maybe, just maybe they had never had a reason to move that fast before?
We scale BoG Goku to Beerus casual flight speed which is 3/4 of Whis' showcased feat, no amount of headcanon will change that. And one more thing; even if we went with the fact that Goku couldn't scale above Whis' feat, then you'd have to admit that a scaling chain as massive as MUI Goku's doesn't even cover a 1.33x difference. Why should we then believe that GTku's scaling would somehow put him hundreds of times baseline in that case? It's clearly not hundreds of times longer than Superku's yet you want yet you seem to believe that the current chain is enough for them to blitz,
Ridiculous.
WTF?
So your logic is; if a character that's among the most powerful in his setting, who never actually has to fight seriously, whose full capabilities we are never shown declares that they've never went that fast, without any exhaustion present being notable on thier person then we automatically assume that they were at their limit while doing so? Instead of the fact that maybe, just maybe they had never had a reason to move that fast before?
We scale BoG Goku to Beerus casual flight speed which is 3/4 of Whis' showcased feat, no amount of headcanon will change that. And one more thing; even if we went with the fact that Goku couldn't scale above Whis' feat, then you'd have to admit that a scaling chain as massive as MUI Goku's doesn't even cover a 1.33x difference. Why should we then believe that GTku's scaling would somehow put him hundreds of times baseline in that case? It's clearly not hundreds of times longer than Superku's yet you want yet you seem to believe that the current chain is enough for them to blitz,
Ridiculous.
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If you sprint at your full speed for 10 seconds, it can be your fastest speed you ever went but still not fatigue you. Him not being tired has nothing to do with anything. We know that Whis has trained and sparred with other angels, or at the very least Vados, as well as trained Beerus in the past. And according to his own words, no headcanon and no room for misinterpretation......he never moved as fast as his 498QD feat ever before. So that kills that whole thing there
And no I'm not saying DBS scaling chain is less than 1.33x. If you look at what I've been saying, you'd see that I've been saying that BoG Goku doesn't scale to 3/4th Whis. That's Beerus who scales to 3/4th Whis. Full speed Beerus. Beerus' full speed scales to 3/4th Whis. Goku scales to casual Beerus. Saying BoG scales to Beerus' 3/4th Whis speed is like saying BoG scales to full power Beerus. The difference in speed between Beerus and BoG Goku is relative to the difference between full power Beerus and BoG Goku overall. Beerus was immensely suppressed against Goku
Whis' 498QD speed (the fastest he's ever moved before) > Full Speed Beerus (Scaling to 3/4th Whis) >>>>>>>> Casual/Suppressed Beerus >=< BoG Goku
As for the GT side of things, even Cell Saga Toei Goku in base is 4.38QD. With Kaioken x 100, which Toei Goku has access to, he's already at 438QD, which scales above Beerus' full speed and is extremely close to Whis. Then in the Buu saga he trained for 7 years and got alot stronger. And while multipliers for SSJ transformations arent accepted, we know that Goku's upper level tranaformations would be stronger than an x100. And then in GT, Goku's base form surpassed his Buu saga SSJ3 state immensely, which was above his Cell Saga hypothetical x100, but for sure was far stronger than that 4.38QD base. And then he has his transformations and in story boosts on top of all of that
SSJ4 Limit Broken Goku > Syn Shenron > SSJ4 Shadow Dragon Arc Goku (many times stronger than Baby arc Goku due to SSJ1 Goku surpassing Majuub when Uub was stronger than Baby Arc SSJ3 Goku) >>> SSJ4 Baby Saga Goku >= Golden Great Ape Baby > Super Baby 2 > Super Baby 1 > Super Vegito Buu Saga (implied by both Goku and Baby who had Vegeta's memories, though we dont know how he scales to the rest of GT) >=< Baby Vegeta > SSJ3 Baby Saga Goku >>>> Base Baby Saga Goku > SSJ1 GT Gohan > Rildo >=< Base GT Gohan >>>> Ultimate Gohan Buu saga (It was stated that Gohan never stopped training in the 15 years between Z and GT, and he never felt the need to go SSJ against Rildo when Rildo > Buu and most Buy saga Z characters) > Super Buu > Kid Buu >=< SSJ3 Buu Saga Goku > SSJ2 Buu Saga Goku > SSJ2 Teen Gohan > Super Perfect Cell > Perfect Cell > SSJ1 Cell Saga Gohan > SSJ1 Cell Saga Goku >>>> Base Cell Saga Gohan > Base Cell Saga Goku = 4.38QD
Keep in mind I skipped alot in the scaling chain, and within it there are some gaps with huge differences ranging over tens and. hundreds of times in there between greater than signs
And the difference between GT and Super's scaling chain is that GT scales up from 4.38QD from around its mid arc from a low tier in said mid arc (considering Base Goku is fodder to the likes of his SSJ self who's fodder to SSJ2 Gohan and SP Cell) while Super scales down from 498QD from one of its god tiers
Anyways I made a long post since it's probably my last. No point in continuing to back and forth. If anything lets agree to disagree and call it a day since it's not really going anywhere
And no I'm not saying DBS scaling chain is less than 1.33x. If you look at what I've been saying, you'd see that I've been saying that BoG Goku doesn't scale to 3/4th Whis. That's Beerus who scales to 3/4th Whis. Full speed Beerus. Beerus' full speed scales to 3/4th Whis. Goku scales to casual Beerus. Saying BoG scales to Beerus' 3/4th Whis speed is like saying BoG scales to full power Beerus. The difference in speed between Beerus and BoG Goku is relative to the difference between full power Beerus and BoG Goku overall. Beerus was immensely suppressed against Goku
Whis' 498QD speed (the fastest he's ever moved before) > Full Speed Beerus (Scaling to 3/4th Whis) >>>>>>>> Casual/Suppressed Beerus >=< BoG Goku
As for the GT side of things, even Cell Saga Toei Goku in base is 4.38QD. With Kaioken x 100, which Toei Goku has access to, he's already at 438QD, which scales above Beerus' full speed and is extremely close to Whis. Then in the Buu saga he trained for 7 years and got alot stronger. And while multipliers for SSJ transformations arent accepted, we know that Goku's upper level tranaformations would be stronger than an x100. And then in GT, Goku's base form surpassed his Buu saga SSJ3 state immensely, which was above his Cell Saga hypothetical x100, but for sure was far stronger than that 4.38QD base. And then he has his transformations and in story boosts on top of all of that
SSJ4 Limit Broken Goku > Syn Shenron > SSJ4 Shadow Dragon Arc Goku (many times stronger than Baby arc Goku due to SSJ1 Goku surpassing Majuub when Uub was stronger than Baby Arc SSJ3 Goku) >>> SSJ4 Baby Saga Goku >= Golden Great Ape Baby > Super Baby 2 > Super Baby 1 > Super Vegito Buu Saga (implied by both Goku and Baby who had Vegeta's memories, though we dont know how he scales to the rest of GT) >=< Baby Vegeta > SSJ3 Baby Saga Goku >>>> Base Baby Saga Goku > SSJ1 GT Gohan > Rildo >=< Base GT Gohan >>>> Ultimate Gohan Buu saga (It was stated that Gohan never stopped training in the 15 years between Z and GT, and he never felt the need to go SSJ against Rildo when Rildo > Buu and most Buy saga Z characters) > Super Buu > Kid Buu >=< SSJ3 Buu Saga Goku > SSJ2 Buu Saga Goku > SSJ2 Teen Gohan > Super Perfect Cell > Perfect Cell > SSJ1 Cell Saga Gohan > SSJ1 Cell Saga Goku >>>> Base Cell Saga Gohan > Base Cell Saga Goku = 4.38QD
Keep in mind I skipped alot in the scaling chain, and within it there are some gaps with huge differences ranging over tens and. hundreds of times in there between greater than signs
And the difference between GT and Super's scaling chain is that GT scales up from 4.38QD from around its mid arc from a low tier in said mid arc (considering Base Goku is fodder to the likes of his SSJ self who's fodder to SSJ2 Gohan and SP Cell) while Super scales down from 498QD from one of its god tiers
Anyways I made a long post since it's probably my last. No point in continuing to back and forth. If anything lets agree to disagree and call it a day since it's not really going anywhere
GarrixianXD
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Irrelevant speed actually
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Yes infinite speed for moving in time stop , innacessible for moving in timeless space , and immeasurable for jiren if you take the stated that he transcends time.
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GarrixianXD
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Krillin literally fought SSB Goku lmao, why are people still thinking he's a huge ass weakling
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Probably because he gets portrayed as one many times. I believe at one point, he was weakening enough that bullets were hurting him, bullets, things pretty much everyone in DB should be immune to at this point. That was until the Goku Fight, where he suddenly got so much stronger for pretty much no reason, although I’ve been told he was fighting so well because of Tactics rather than strength, not sure about the legitimacy of that statement though.
