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Grey Hulk and Thing Revision

MJF6219 said:
Since it seems like She-Hulk is getting a Classic key and Modern key and considering that Captain Marvel already has a Classic and Modern key, it made me think that giving these 3 characters (Grey Hulk, Thing, and Namor) Classic and Modern Keys probably wouldn't be a bad idea. Since a lot of the instances where these 3 characters were consistently fighting against 4-B characters all the time seemed to be more 70s to 80s era Marvel, Where as these three characters fighting against 4-B characters doesn't seem to be nearly as consistent anymore.

So just throwing that idea out there, that maybe giving these characters Classic and Modern keys may be a possible solution. What do ya guys think?
Click to expand...
I agree. Modern Namor had tanked an Gamma Enhanced physical attack from She-Hulk and iirc caught a energy punch from Captain Marvel as well.
 
LordTracer said:
More examples of Thing being 4-B:

Unharmed by Surfer's blows.

Forcefully takes Surfer's board from his hands. (This is the same fight where Thing already stated he was holding back and Surfer had to get an amp to match Thing)

Holds his own against Doctor Doom with the Power Cosmic.

Withstanding blows from Unstoppable Colossus.
Click to expand...
Thing wasn't "unharmed" in that scan.

No this is a different fight, the one where Ben gave Norrin all he had and couldn't scratch him.

The narration says Ben only overcame "enough pressure to flatten a concrete fortress".

Colossus wasn't trying to kill him pretty explicitly in this storyline.
 
He was unharmed, nothing at all implies he was damaged by that hit.

It came immediately after, it's from the same issue.

And...? He was still able to break out of Power Cosmic Doom's grip and send him flying with a punch.

Based on... what exactly?
 
LordTracer said:
He was unharmed, nothing at all implies he was damaged by that hit.

It came immediately after, it's from the same issue.

And...? He was still able to break out of Power Cosmic Doom's grip and send him flying with a punch.

Based on... what exactly?
Click to expand...
That is not the face of someone who tanked a punch.

Doom was pretty explicitly toying with Ben out of sadism.

https://i.imgur.com/zX6Lx0W.jpg

Colossus in this same storyline refuses to kill even while made mentally unstable by being a host of the Phoenix Force.
 
You mean the completely neutral expression on his face? Also Ben basically said Surfer wasn't doing much.

Doom's dialogue doesn't imply toying in the slightest. It basically all but states he's trying to kill Ben.

That is Phoenix Five Colossus. Not Unstoppable Colossus. So again I ask, what implies Unstoppable Colossus wasn't tryin' to kill Ben?
 
LordTracer said:
You mean the completely neutral expression on his face? Also Ben basically said Surfer wasn't doing much.

Doom's dialogue doesn't imply toying in the slightest. It basically all but states he's trying to kill Ben.

That is Phoenix Five Colossus. Not Unstoppable Colossus. So again I ask, what implies Unstoppable Colossus wasn't tryin' to kill Ben?
Click to expand...
That's not a neutral expression dude, Ben is clearly not no-selling the punch.

He's literally asking Ben to beg for his life.

They're the same character, with Phoenix Five Colossus being mentally unwell as shown in AvX, if Colossus wouldn't kill Spider-Man in that situation, he definitely wouldn't kill Ben.
 
It really is a neutral expression, I don't know what you're getting from it. And he pretty much is, immediately after that hit Ben says; "If that's the best ya can do, whitey - ferget it!" Ben wasn't harmed.

Doom also says; "Let me drink in the sounds of your final, helpless whimpering!" Final. As in, he's attempting to kill Ben.

Except this is not the same situation. One was Phoenix Five Colossus, the other is Unstoppable Colossus. I'm going to need evidence that shows Colossus in that situation wasn't trying to kill Ben.
 
His face is scrunched up and his arm is flailing around, he's clearly not unharmed, Ben is just acting tough like he usually does.

Doom clearly wants Ben to beg for mercy before he kills him, if he was really trying to kill him he would just be blasting him into space where he can't breathe.

This Colossus has literally the same personality but is less mentally unstable, what are you talking about.
 
The Thing's face looks like it normally does, even to the point of having literally no expression, also his arm is flailing because he's on a hoverbike. You're looking way too far into the simple art style of comic. If they wanted to imply he was lying, there would probably be an internal monologue.
 
Asura basically said what I would've responded.

And why exactly would that one very specific method be the only thing Doom was doing if he was trying to kill him? Especially when Doom made it quite clear he was going to kill Ben, yet Ben was still able to break out of his grip.

Based on what in that storyline? Can you not simply give something that shows Colossus' personality is the exact same?
 
Doom also says he's only applying a ton per square inch of force, lol.

Colossus after he became a Phoenix host literally helped take over the world and gave whales legs with matter manipulation just to see what would happen, whereas when he was the Juggernaut he was acting completely normal.
 
That whole thing was kind of strange. Even if The Thing did fight an all-out Doom, I don't think it's evidence for Solar System level, since none of the characters were portrayed that way.
 
>Solar System level Thing and Cyclops

Jesus Christ people maybe at some point you need to recognize the scaling is out of wack and that you need to take a step down?
 
I said specifically I don't believe that Cyclops and Colossus are 4-B. Colossus is consistently weaker than The Thing and has only matched him twice, while Cyclops has no real feats placing him in this tier.

What's wrong with The Thing being 4-B? He's fought the Hulk and other 4-Bs on multiple occasions. Maybe you should recognize that your scaling system for all these characters just doesn't work.

Anyway, I'm willing to compromise, as I said before. There's also some Star level feats coming in.
 
I think that the Cyclops reference is regarding another current thread.

Regardless, I agree with Matthew. The Thing and Grey Hulk are officially supposed to be far weaker than the 4-B characters. Marvel matchups are recurrently completely illogical and inconsistent, and if we scaled absolutely everybody to absolutely everybody they have fought or caused damage to, we would would likely end up with 1-A aunt May.

Please read and reread the Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics page until you properly understand it. If we upgrade the Thing and Grey Hulk, who all the current 5-A characters are scaled to, we would have to let all of them follow suit, which is highly inappropriate.
 
@Ant

Well yea they are overall treated as weaker then some of the 4-B characters, but do you truly think they should be considered like Billions of times weaker then them? Since like even if we put them as High 5-A, I'm pretty that's still a huge gap between being even baseline 4-B.

Plus The Thing has literally consistently fought more 4-Bs and even fought them much more frequently then a lot of the characters who are actually listed as being 4-B have, or at least he use to all the time back in like the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Which is why I still think that maybe Classic and Modern keys could be viable for him.
 
Spider-Man is not treated as many trillions of times weaker than the Hulk and Thor, and the Hulk and Thor are not treated as infinitely weaker than Odin. Yet they still are. Again, Marvel matchup scaling is complete schizophrenic incoherent nonsense, and hard to properly make sense of.
 
Thank you for the information.
 
Really? Do you mean absorbing power from the Hulk and then severely damaging him, or something else?

You can ask the calc group for calculations if you can find some scans.
 
Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff said:
I did some digging and it does seem marvel has ages in publication like DC.
Click to expand...
Yep, agreed. Within the Bronze Age of marvel, like a huge portion of the Brute-like characters (Thing, Hulk, Hercules, Thor, Silver Surfer, Namor, Juggernaut, Abomination, etc) used to all be treated as being comparable to each other. It seems clear that isn't really the case anymore, but at a point in time they were all undeniably treated as being quite close to each other in strength.
 
I do not think that scaling all of the profiles that way is realistic to achieve in a proper manner, since all of the feats for all of the pages would have to be categorised as well, and there have been no company-wide reboots.

3 keys for She-Hulk is fine though, as she explicitly grew in power in stages.
 
Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff said:
There's a Golden, Bronze and Modern Age for Marvel.
Click to expand...
No Silver Age?

And yea maybe like Bronze Age | Modern Age Keys would make more sense then Classic and Modern.
 
I still think that we should only insert different era keys into the profiles for characters that blatantly changed a lot in terms of relative power levels, or have different incarnations like the Hulk.
 
Antvasima said:
I still think that we should only insert different era keys into the profiles for characters that blatantly changed a lot in terms of relative power levels, or have different incarnations like the Hulk.
Click to expand...
I agree. This is just an attempt to make everyone scale to each other and get away with it.

When the simpler solution is that Thing, Grey Hulk, Namor, etc simply shouldn't scale to Tier 4 stuff, and Cyclops isn't Planetary.
 
I definitely wasn't trying to go for that at all matt. I was just offering an alternative solution. Namor definitely scales to 4-B, he has more 4-B feats the Captain Marvel, so i don't see why he shouldn't scale.
 
@ Ant and Matt

Yea no one here Was trying to give a bunch of different profiles those keys, mainly just Thing, since out of every character I just listed in my post (8th up from this one) the Thing is the only one who doesn't have a 4-B rating, despite having an uncanny amount of consistency of fighting 4-B characters, something he used to do more commonly in the Bronze Age era of Marvel.
 
And besides we did the exact same thing for Captain Marvel, so what makes The Thing (and the characters that he scales to/characters that scale to him) so much different? Especially when considering he seems to have more consistency with fighting 4-B characters then Even Captain Marvel does her self.
 
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