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Greek Gods additions and Respect Thread.
- Thread starter Udlmaster
- Start date
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Sorry the message probably got crowded and I didn't reply.
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I'm unsure about Type 5. It could possibly be the case seeing as how the gods cannot be killed by the personification of Death, and even the strongest gods can't kill the weakest.
No to 2-C Zeus.
No to 2-C Zeus.
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@Matt Why do you say no to 2-C Zeus?
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Perhaps you could check under Mythology in the Knowledgeable Members List for people to ask to comment here?
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@Ant I have done so
@Matt so im back to make my points for 2-C Zeus. Firstly the many philosophers of Ancient Greece believed that there were multiple realities Plato himself had the idea though it was FAR more widespread, the philosopher Democritus also had this idea in mind and the Greek philophers' belief in the idea of a multiverse is well known in articles. (This article for example)
This likely will not require a great suspension of disbelief as that is how we view the Ancient Greek universe as a Solar System in size due to calcs from ancient philosophers that have been examined on Naruto Forums i believe. This is backed up by Orphism believing in multiple coexisting realities as well as modern Hellenism believing a similar thing.
This is neglecting the fact that Orphic Zeus is stated multiple times to be one with all that exists (Including the above mentioned multiple universes) as well as Gaia who is stated to "feed all the creatures that are in the worlds" This also ignores the other realms that exist such as Tartarus, the Aether etc.
@Matt so im back to make my points for 2-C Zeus. Firstly the many philosophers of Ancient Greece believed that there were multiple realities Plato himself had the idea though it was FAR more widespread, the philosopher Democritus also had this idea in mind and the Greek philophers' belief in the idea of a multiverse is well known in articles. (This article for example)
This likely will not require a great suspension of disbelief as that is how we view the Ancient Greek universe as a Solar System in size due to calcs from ancient philosophers that have been examined on Naruto Forums i believe. This is backed up by Orphism believing in multiple coexisting realities as well as modern Hellenism believing a similar thing.
This is neglecting the fact that Orphic Zeus is stated multiple times to be one with all that exists (Including the above mentioned multiple universes) as well as Gaia who is stated to "feed all the creatures that are in the worlds" This also ignores the other realms that exist such as Tartarus, the Aether etc.
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Bump.
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I guess I might be fine with an upgrade to Orphic Zeus, if the Orphic tradition in particular really does consistently hold these views about the Cosmos being the frame for all Universes or what-have-you, though I would be a lot more comfortable with it if we had translations of the original works themselves rather than online artcicles and citations of books from the 90s. Even then, such prominent and influential Greek thinkers as Aristotle refuted the multiple/infinite worlds viewpoint, so if it were to go through perhaps something like "possibly 2-C/2-B/2-A" or whatever you end up ruling it as might be best to reflect the different competing interpretations of the Mythos (if there really are consistent statements of infinite realities, yeah, that'd be 2-A rather than 2-B.)
Neutral on Type 5 Immortality as well. The words "deathless" and "undying" don't necessitate Deathless Immortality as we define it here on the wiki, though admittedly there's a decent bit of evidence for it.
Charybdis's calc is probably a tad inflated, I think, so I tried running some safer timeframes/distances and got higher end 5-B; since Charybdis is apparently the deific offspring of Poseidon and Gaea, I imagine similar entities would be comparable to it.
Everything else seems fine.
Neutral on Type 5 Immortality as well. The words "deathless" and "undying" don't necessitate Deathless Immortality as we define it here on the wiki, though admittedly there's a decent bit of evidence for it.
Charybdis's calc is probably a tad inflated, I think, so I tried running some safer timeframes/distances and got higher end 5-B; since Charybdis is apparently the deific offspring of Poseidon and Gaea, I imagine similar entities would be comparable to it.
Everything else seems fine.
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I'd like to point out that Charydbis is literally just a toothed giant whirpool in The Odyssey. The calc is hardly accurate to what is shown.
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That's because what is "shown" in the Odyssey isn't what's being calculated in the first place, the statement that it can "devour the ocean in a single gulp" is. The Charybdis as an entity within the Greek mythos exists beyond The Odyssey...
That said, I'd also prefer if there were some kind of link to this statement, as well. Otherwise, it's likely not usable.
That said, I'd also prefer if there were some kind of link to this statement, as well. Otherwise, it's likely not usable.
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Zeus being possibly 2-A seems reasonable to me.
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Greek Mythology kinda predates Eratosthenes's calculation of the Earth's circumference by 600ish years, so they didn't know how big the ocean was.
Also, 1 gulp = 1 second is extremely inflated.
Also, 1 gulp = 1 second is extremely inflated.
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Closest thing I've found:
"N.B. Trienos, the mother of Skylla, is probably Kharybdis (Charybdis). She is named Trienos (Three-Times) because her whirlpool sucks in the sea three times a day."
The opposite rock, which was much lower, contained an immense fig-tree, under which there dwelt Charybdis, who thrice every day swallowed down the waters of the sea, and thrice threw them up again.
"N.B. Trienos, the mother of Skylla, is probably Kharybdis (Charybdis). She is named Trienos (Three-Times) because her whirlpool sucks in the sea three times a day."
The opposite rock, which was much lower, contained an immense fig-tree, under which there dwelt Charybdis, who thrice every day swallowed down the waters of the sea, and thrice threw them up again.
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That doesn't indicate that it sucks the entire sea, it just indicates that Charydbis opens her mouth and succs the sea around her three times a day.
So yeah, that statement was not reliable as I always figured.
So yeah, that statement was not reliable as I always figured.
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Yeah, that was the point.
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So no to 5-A Greek Gods? What does everyone think about 2-C Zeus (It seems two people agree thus far, unless we count Zach Grossman whos tried to get Orphic upgraded before)
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...what would the timeframe on "thrice per day swallowed them, thrice per day threw them back up again" be? If the day is 12 hours, that'd be... 2 hours each go at it, yeah? It's probably still a decent value, but certainly not anything Tier 5 in scale. Which, well, makes a lot more sense imo.
Granted, that would assume that "the waters of the sea" meant the entirety of the sea... though it would also low-ball the timeframe to the longest possible, I guess.
Granted, that would assume that "the waters of the sea" meant the entirety of the sea... though it would also low-ball the timeframe to the longest possible, I guess.
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Wait was 2-C Zeus rejected? Three people mentioned it and two were in support of the notion. All up though i agree with Deathless Immortality for obvious reasons (None of the Gods killing each other save Zeus one time killing Asclepius i believe.)
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Respectfully im confused on that part since he simply said "No to 2-C Zeus" without addressing any of my sources regarding multiple universe in Greek Mythology (which other people do in fact agree with)
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But failed to provide a reason why.
If there is clear enough evidence that multiple realities are an important aspect of the Orphic tradition, I fail to see why such a thing would not be considered. If Matthew says no, he ought to provide reasoning as to why he holds that view.
If there is clear enough evidence that multiple realities are an important aspect of the Orphic tradition, I fail to see why such a thing would not be considered. If Matthew says no, he ought to provide reasoning as to why he holds that view.
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Greek Mythology is one universe. Stuff like Olympus and Tartarus are physically located in this universe. Nothing Multiversal in scale, as such a thing was not even a concept in ancient greece.
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But how do you refute the evidence Ancient Greeks believed in the concept of multiple universes (Its like not using the 4-B cosmology despite the prescence of reasonable evidence).
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Do you have evidence that they did that isn't a site made on Angelfire in 1998? The first cosmological model to talk about multiple universes was Hinduism.
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You're confusing Greek philosophers with Greek mythology.
Aristotle and Ptolemy believed the Earth was round. Greek mythology says it is a flat circle with the Sun and the Moon being equal in size and traveling around the disk, with the stars right above them and embedded in a solid dome, much like the Babylonians, Mesopotamians and most of the Middle East.
Plus, pretty sure these ideas are from the 3rd century BCE, several centuries after Hesiod, Homer and Apollodorus.
Aristotle and Ptolemy believed the Earth was round. Greek mythology says it is a flat circle with the Sun and the Moon being equal in size and traveling around the disk, with the stars right above them and embedded in a solid dome, much like the Babylonians, Mesopotamians and most of the Middle East.
Plus, pretty sure these ideas are from the 3rd century BCE, several centuries after Hesiod, Homer and Apollodorus.
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While it is true Olympus (As in the legit location) and Hades are in the same universe that dosent discount the fact the Gaia statement literally mentions all worlds. As for idea of that not even being a concept at the time...
Getting to Keps statement of only philosophers after Plato believing in the idea of multiple realities which does not affect how the average view of Greek Myth was, this again falls apart when A) Plato did believe in the idea and thus it should be viewed as more substantial B) multiple realities dont contradict the Mythology like a round Earth being called flat (All Worlds) and C) Only philosophers believed in the universe having a calculable size which we use to gauge the "Cosmic" feats.
I've got more evidence but ill come back later with those.
Getting to Keps statement of only philosophers after Plato believing in the idea of multiple realities which does not affect how the average view of Greek Myth was, this again falls apart when A) Plato did believe in the idea and thus it should be viewed as more substantial B) multiple realities dont contradict the Mythology like a round Earth being called flat (All Worlds) and C) Only philosophers believed in the universe having a calculable size which we use to gauge the "Cosmic" feats.
I've got more evidence but ill come back later with those.
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@Hellbeast
Firstly, "all worlds" is never actually stated in any of the things you're citing.
She gave birth to "all things" and "worlds" are mentioned. But never was the word "universe" mentioned nor any other terminology that would indicate anything beyond the scope of a single material universe.
Second, we're going off the myths, not the philosophy derived from it. It doesn't matter if Plato said it. If it's not in the text or some version of it then it's not part of the actual mythos and can't be factored into profiles.
It's like if we took MatPat's interpretation of the events of a game to judge stats.
Firstly, "all worlds" is never actually stated in any of the things you're citing.
She gave birth to "all things" and "worlds" are mentioned. But never was the word "universe" mentioned nor any other terminology that would indicate anything beyond the scope of a single material universe.
Second, we're going off the myths, not the philosophy derived from it. It doesn't matter if Plato said it. If it's not in the text or some version of it then it's not part of the actual mythos and can't be factored into profiles.
It's like if we took MatPat's interpretation of the events of a game to judge stats.
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1) It is stated in the Homeric Hymn XXX to Gaea (As translated by Evelyn White)
2) Respectfully unless the Ancient Greeks believed in life on other worlds im not sure what else that line could be interperated as anything other then their being multiple realities living separate to each other
3) Again we're using Aristarchus calculations for the Universes size which wasnt believed by the average practitioner of the ethnic Hellenic religion, in fact isnt that more like using a MatPat vid to decide the ratings for a character?
4) We have this and this to back up the notion of other realities.
2) Respectfully unless the Ancient Greeks believed in life on other worlds im not sure what else that line could be interperated as anything other then their being multiple realities living separate to each other
3) Again we're using Aristarchus calculations for the Universes size which wasnt believed by the average practitioner of the ethnic Hellenic religion, in fact isnt that more like using a MatPat vid to decide the ratings for a character?
4) We have this and this to back up the notion of other realities.
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