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Gravity Falls: Cosmology Revamp + Adding some stuff

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I know very little about this verse, so I can't really offer novel thoughts based on anything not contained in the thread itself. But I'll try and help out with getting this resolved.

StrymULTRA said:
The main multiverse, despite still being 2-A, possibly High 1-C, has slighty more solid basis on the latter, due to these aliens being straight up being called 7-Dimensional, other than Bill also relating additional spatial dimensions to additional directions of movement, hinting more that said 11-D dimensions are inhabitable and not just compactified (prolly should become a "likely" now).
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I agree. The quote about the aliens in question ("The Pan-Dimensional beings... Since they exist in 7 to 11 dimensions at once, they have a horrible sense of direction. No wonder the ship crashed.") would be kind of a nonsense statement if he was referring to "dimension" in the sense of a universe rather than spatial dimensions. I'd be fine having this adjusted to a "likely" rating.

StrymULTRA said:
There's not just a Nightmare Realm, but infinitely more of them as Hypertimelines, due to infinite variations of it existing, which are also called directly as timelines from both Bill and Time Baby. Due to the Nightmare Realm already using infinite universes, each being a different space-time continuum, the only logical conclusion is for each Nightmare Realm to also have a higher temporal dimension that encompasses all these space-times, making it not just a +1 compared to the multiverse, but actually a +2, hence each Nightmare Realm is a 1-C, possibly 1-B structure with 1 level of dimensionality higher (aka 6-D to 13-D). This is similar to how Kingdom Heart's Ocean Between had also a +2 compared to the cosmology, thus being a 6D structure (before being reduced to a +1 due to strictier standards regarding being bigger than Tier 2 structures while still having the Higher time dimension valid).
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I'm not really the best person to ask about hypertimeline standards, but looking through the Nightmare Realm section of the blog, I do think the conclusion makes sense.

StrymULTRA said:
There's the infamous "feat" of Pre-Weirdmageddon Bill and Time Baby going in Dennis' world and even moving a card holder with their physical strenght. For context, it is a world that perceives the multiverse as an illusion due to it being merely a hologram projected in a trading card which, for anything happening to it, the same happens to the world within it, something that Bill himself relates to the string theory, which is also mentioned by himself and others both in the series and in supplementary materials (1 and 2). This leaves us with some choices:
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I prefer option 2. I don't find the matter of "the world within the comic is 2-D" to be compelling, for much the same reason that you yourself outlined - there's clearly a marked, meaningful difference in how the scans depict a "2-D world" and the world inside the comic, so I don't see this as evidence that the series equates dimensional changes to reality-fiction interactions. If anything, I think it implies the opposite, and would go against the suggestion that seeing the world as an illusion can be achieved by being +1 dimension over it.

I'm not well-versed in the feats of the series, mind you, but I also don't find it too unreasonable to write off that feat as an outlier based on what is mentioned. Not only does it seem to be above anything else depicted by the characters in the feat, but it also seems like a gag moment that was played for humour more than anything that was meant to be taken seriously as a comparison point between Dennis and Bill/TB. The fact that it is an outlier is enough to write it off, but the latter point only solidifies that I wouldn't opt to scale our profiles based on this.

StrymULTRA said:
This also gives us also Type 9 Immortality for Bill. As explained in the blog, the Mindscape exists across the multiverse, and it is stated multiple times by Alex Hirsch, Bill, and Stanford Pines to be an idea, and as such he can't be killed due to ideas always existing as long as they are in the Mindscape, because of them being forever remembered from the human minds across generations (yes I took it from his profile for Type 8 immortality). Given that his Type 8 extends across realities, it should be also Type 9 imo.
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The last scan in particular, referencing the thought that the "realm of ideas" is as real as the physical world and that your identity can outlast your body by existing in this realm, makes it fairly clear that having a form which exists in the realm of ideas would qualify for type 9 immortality.

StrymULTRA said:
The argument was already tried here, but was rejected due to the Weirdmageddon lacking proofs of affecting speed. Well, no more!
Going back on the feat, we all know that the Dimensional Rift would have destroyed the fabric of existence with a giant explosion. This would be already infinite speed due to the Nightmare Realm being an infinite-sized Bulk space that encompasses within itself an infinite multiverse.

Bill should be comparable to the Rift due to him not only having created the Rift, but also having his powers linked to and empowered from the Rift, other than also sustaining it, as when he dies, the Rift also disappears along with all of its effects, implying some UES kind of stuff going on here. This is further shown that Bill initially could fight evenly, with Bill later straight up blitzing Time Baby once empowered by the rift. This implies a speed increase too.

This won't affect his current speed as it's Immeasurable, but it's a nice addition nontheless (especially given that Mario characters are infinite off the same argument lol).
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This should be fine as a justification, yes.
 
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Reiner04 said:
Just make sure to mention and explain the outlier on page properly.
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I made this on the blog some time before:

While Bill and Time Baby physically interacting with Dennis' world would normally be an anti-feat for the latter, due to them being somehow going in and physically interacting with said world without an explanation, the event is treated as being an Outlier, as Bill would otherwise have already enough power to destroy all the Multiversal Timelines, when in the show, after getting empowered from the Weirdmageddon, he described himself as being infinitely stronger than before, despite the Weirdmageddon affecting only a Multiversal Timeline, other than being matched by the Shacktron, which was merely empowered by a portal with enough power to shake a single Nightmare Realm, thus causing a contradiction in the overall plot of Gravity Falls. See here for more information.
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Having been called here once again, and having read the latest comments, I can agree with the second option, so long as the outlier is properly specified.

(And really, an RVR thing? This could've been a Discord ping smh)
 
Alright, the issue here that I've found is that just calling it a "lol outlier" to hide the anti-feat looks weird and dishonest, and I myself found it pretty damn weird, but didn't know where the issue laid in.

The thing is just calling it an outlier isn't really a good counter, as if a character has a speed feat that is inconsistent with their other showings that was done by flying, that doesn't mean that they can't fly, just that they can't do it at that speed.

Because of this, I've personally changed my mind for a full Option 1 here, as Ultima's words before kinda confused me and led to this, so I don't think there should be an issue with making Bill just 1-B, given that the last shifts in vote were just supportive, but weren't fully discarding just 1-B.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Snip
Click to expand...
Does the aforementioned explanation be enough to make you change to Option 1?
 
StrymULTRA said:
Alright, the issue here that I've found is that just calling it a "lol outlier" to hide the anti-feat looks weird and dishonest, and I myself found it pretty damn weird, but didn't know where the issue laid in.

The thing is just calling it an outlier isn't really a good counter, as if a character has a speed feat that is inconsistent with their other showings that was done by flying, that doesn't mean that they can't fly, just that they can't do it at that speed.

Because of this, I've personally changed my mind for a full Option 1 here, as Ultima's words before kinda confused me and led to this, so I don't think there should be an issue with making Bill just 1-B, given that the last shifts in vote were just supportive, but weren't fully discarding just 1-B.

Does the aforementioned explanation be enough to make you change to Option 1?
Click to expand...
@DarkDragonMedeus
 
StrymULTRA said:
Alright, the issue here that I've found is that just calling it a "lol outlier" to hide the anti-feat looks weird and dishonest, and I myself found it pretty damn weird, but didn't know where the issue laid in.

The thing is just calling it an outlier isn't really a good counter, as if a character has a speed feat that is inconsistent with their other showings that was done by flying, that doesn't mean that they can't fly, just that they can't do it at that speed.

Because of this, I've personally changed my mind for a full Option 1 here, as Ultima's words before kinda confused me and led to this, so I don't think there should be an issue with making Bill just 1-B, given that the last shifts in vote were just supportive, but weren't fully discarding just 1-B.

Does the aforementioned explanation be enough to make you change to Option 1?
Click to expand...
Sure
 
So what are the current results here? 🙏
 
Anyway, I have made a new version of the cosmology blog to explain better how R-F in-verse is just a dimensional difference.

Quoting the relevant parts:

While the cosmology follows String Theory, the extra dimensions are not compactified at planck-lenght, and instead are superior to the lower dimensions, as 2-Dimensional worlds are treated as fiction in form of videogames and comics, and higher beings perceive the whole of the Gravity Falls cosmology and its dimensions as a mere collectible card (this will be elaborated below in this blog), making said 11 dimensions significant in size due to them treating the lower ones as fiction.
Click to expand...

(Note 1) The Trilazzxx Beta aliens dying as a result of their ship crashing on Earth is not a disqualifier for the higher dimensions being superior to the lower ones, as higher dimensional beings can still be weaker than lower dimensional ones, and only the size of the higher dimensions is relevant to the cosmology, rather than the power of its inhabitants. This also isn't the only case of beings having power that's greatly different than their dimensionality, as unlike other 2-D beings that were still bound to their universe like the ones of the comic world, Exwhylia inhabitants were about to kill the 3-D Stanford despite being 2-D themselves, Bill was able to fight the 3-D Time Baby and destroy planets while he was still a 2-Dimensional being, or to destroy the whole higher dimensional Multiverse during the Weirdmageddon despite having obtained just a 3-Dimensional form in that event.
Click to expand...

(Note 2) Bill and Time Baby physically interacting with Dennis' card carrier is an anti-feat for a true Reality-Fiction Transcendence, as it goes against the unreachability required for Qualitative Superiority. However, given how the verse is consistent about making lower dimensional worlds fictional to higher dimensional ones, Dennis' world still qualifies for being dimensionally above all the lower Hypertimelines and their dimensions.
Click to expand...
StrymULTRA said:
I made this on the blog some time before:
Click to expand...
The note I made in the above post would be put as Extra Note in both Bill and Time Baby's profiles however, as we can't pretend the thing isn't an outlier for them, despite being still a disqualifier after all.

If you guys are ok with this, all the "1-C, likely 1-B" ratings would be just 1-B, as the only reason behind the likely was Dennis' world not elaborating on the nature of dimensions in Gravity Falls due to its Qualitative nature and not a Higher Dimensional one. However, if we take Dennis' world as just dimensionally superior, it'll means that in GF each higher dimension sees the lower dimension as fictional, making it +1D compared to the rest.
Antvasima said:
So what are the current results here? 🙏
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Reiner04 said:
Yap
Click to expand...
Planck69 said:
Yap
Click to expand...
Sorry people for another ping, but Ultima expressed off-site a disagreement with 1-A based on it being an outlier not eliminating the fact that's an anti-feat, and I do kinda agree with that tbf.
 
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StrymULTRA said:
Bro didn't you and Planck also vote for full 1-B?
Click to expand...
Sorry I was busy with something so couldn’t reply. The vote count is based off current votes of staff and plancks and I changed their votes later. That said I am fine with rolling back to my old position but plancks still have to confirm his own.
 
Reiner04 said:
Sorry I was busy with something so couldn’t reply. The vote count is based off current votes of staff and plancks and I changed their votes later. That said I am fine with rolling back to my old position but plancks still have to confirm his own.
Click to expand...
Tbh Planck did say that he can agree with 1-A, but he seemed that he's primairly ok with the pure 1-B option.

Then ofc if wants to confirm we can wait.
 
My opinion hasn't really changed. Perhaps I could be convinced if there are good examples of us being similarly stringent with the standards in other places, but I struggle to see the Dennis matter as even much of an anti-feat considering how it clearly isn't meant to be taken seriously in the first place. It's correct, at least, to note that something being an outlier doesn't mean it can't be an anti-feat - but I think this is both not meant to be taken seriously in terms of the physical feat itself, nor is it meant to be taken seriously that TB and Bill can access this reality and mess around in it despite being seen as fictional to its denizens.

This is combined with the fact that, as I mentioned before, there is clearly a marked in-universe difference between the dimensions that different characters inhabit (with the likes of the 2-D world being treated as just-as-real, if difficult for a 3-D being to navigate, or the multi-dimensional aliens crash landing in a 3-D world) compared to worlds with active reality-fiction differences (like the comic, which is fictional but visibly inhabits a 3-D space like the real world). I think it's completely against what the weight of the scans suggests to say that the reality-fiction difference exhibited by Dennis can be explained by simply being one-dimension higher in a world where that consistently doesn't cause you to perceive lower dimensional beings as illusory in the way that Dennis does.

So my opinion is largely the same. But if others don't find this compelling, I won't drag this thread out further - short of any changes in the opinions of the current 1-B voters (which I would hope to check first before anything), I'm fine letting the current conclusions of the thread pass without further debate.
 
GrathOfLux said:
Dennis can be explained by simply being one-dimension higher in a world where that consistently doesn't cause you to perceive lower dimensional beings as illusory in the way that Dennis does.
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Well, there's a catch here.

The statement is a reference to how String Theory works, as said in the scan itself, and the illusion thing is stated twice in both the show and the website, something that points to the Holographic Principle that is used in String Theory itself, meaning that "illusion" in the context is mostly a reference on how 3D objects are an hologram rather than them literally being nonexistent.

Though if you wanna argue this being a gag than anything else, that's another matter I am not going to touch though without other staff input.
 
GrathOfLux said:
My opinion hasn't really changed. Perhaps I could be convinced if there are good examples of us being similarly stringent with the standards in other places, but I struggle to see the Dennis matter as even much of an anti-feat considering how it clearly isn't meant to be taken seriously in the first place. It's correct, at least, to note that something being an outlier doesn't mean it can't be an anti-feat - but I think this is both not meant to be taken seriously in terms of the physical feat itself, nor is it meant to be taken seriously that TB and Bill can access this reality and mess around in it despite being seen as fictional to its denizens.

This is combined with the fact that, as I mentioned before, there is clearly a marked in-universe difference between the dimensions that different characters inhabit (with the likes of the 2-D world being treated as just-as-real, if difficult for a 3-D being to navigate, or the multi-dimensional aliens crash landing in a 3-D world) compared to worlds with active reality-fiction differences (like the comic, which is fictional but visibly inhabits a 3-D space like the real world). I think it's completely against what the weight of the scans suggests to say that the reality-fiction difference exhibited by Dennis can be explained by simply being one-dimension higher in a world where that consistently doesn't cause you to perceive lower dimensional beings as illusory in the way that Dennis does.

So my opinion is largely the same. But if others don't find this compelling, I won't drag this thread out further - short of any changes in the opinions of the current 1-B voters (which I would hope to check first before anything), I'm fine letting the current conclusions of the thread pass without further debate.
Click to expand...
StrymULTRA said:
Well, there's a catch here.

The statement is a reference to how String Theory works, as said in the scan itself, and the illusion thing is stated twice in both the show and the website, something that points to the Holographic Principle that is used in String Theory itself, meaning that "illusion" in the context is mostly a reference on how 3D objects are an hologram rather than them literally being nonexistent.

Though if you wanna argue this being a gag than anything else, that's another matter I am not going to touch though without other staff input.
Click to expand...
@DarkDragonMedeus @Reiner04 @Planck69 @GrathOfLux

What do you think about this? 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Probably soon, but let's first see if @GrathOfLux and @Qawsedf234 are willing to take a look and clarify their viewpoints here soon. 🙏
Click to expand...
Alright Ant, Qawsedf isn't commenting on the forum since this Monday and was online today. If he wanted to comment here, he'd have given he was pinged by multiple staff outside of you multiple times in this thread.

Grath also said she won't oppose the 1-B option despite wanting the other one, so I think I should be able to apply the final changes.
 
Thank you to everybody who helped out here.🙏
 
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