Grand Zeno CRT

[Pepsiman25th]

i lost track of all the disagrees/agrees but ill add it

 

[ZillertheBucko]

hmmm
isn't 6 enough votes to add to profile?

 

[Orioreeem]

hmmm
isn't 6 enough votes to add to profile?

You need stuff to agree.

 

[RisingIons]

Zeno doesn't get resistance to something that doesn't affect him.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Zeno doesn't get resistance to something that doesn't affect him.

of course it doesn't affect him
that's why he resists it

 

[RisingIons]

of course it doesn't affect him
that's why he resists it

.....bruh
How do you resist something that does not include you?

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

.....bruh
How do you resist something that does not include you?

I'll explain it a little easier for you. Zeno creates a ball. This ball's properties erases everything on contact. Zeno releases it, and as we see its omnidirectional in both continuities, and engulfs even himself. (Timestamp 2:32) Meaning zeno came into contact with something that erases existence, and was unaffected by it, which would give him some level of resistance to it.
So saying it didn't include him i feel like wouldn't be true at all due to the nature of this attack in question.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Zeno creates a ball. This ball's properties erases everything on contact.

Wrong.
The "ball" in Zeno's hand is just a light that appears when he uses his Erase technique. What he erases is not related to what the light touches. What he erases is not restricted by the range and luminosity of the light in his hand, as seen several times throughout the Tournament of Power. In fact, the light never extends beyond the Earth when he erases Zamasu and the entire universe. His targets are erased instantaneously.

It is practically thought-based erasure.

Meaning zeno came into contact with something that erases existence, and was unaffected by it

Do we give Solar Flare users Resistance to Blinding now?
Does Roshi get Resistance to Electricity because he created electricity and was unaffected by it?
Do we give the Gods of Destruction Resistance to Existence Erasure because they are unaffected by their attack that is not aimed at them?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

This entire argument stems from a misunderstanding of how Zeno's abilities work and typical Dragon Ball fan nonsense.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Wrong.
The "ball" in Zeno's hand is just a light that appears when he uses his Erase technique. What he erases is not related to what the light touches. What he erases is not restricted by the range and luminosity of the light in his hand, as seen several times throughout the Tournament of Power. In fact, the light never extends beyond the Earth when he erases Zamasu and the entire universe. His targets are erased instantaneously.

Even if it wasn't restricted to what the light comes into contact with (which we see numerous times throughout the series that whatever he erases usually is surrounded by white light, and we can see the entire area was engulfed within said light) and we say he only erased the universe itself, he is obviously contained within the universe, and we do know that the attack was omnidirectional meaning that he should've been included, and seeing as he was unaffected, thats basically why i think he should have res.

Do we give Solar Flare users Resistance to Blinding now?

The solar flare is consistently displayed as not affecting the user, so i feel like that is disanalogous.

Does Roshi get Resistance to Electricity because he created electricity and was unaffected by it?

If he made electricity, felt the impact of his own electricity and was unaffected by it, and its not simply a case of his durability simply being higher, then sure I'd say give him res.

Do we give the Gods of Destruction Resistance to Existence Erasure because they are unaffected by their attack that is not aimed at them?

What? If they aren't making contact with or interacting with their own attack then that completely disanalogous to my reasoning.
Also the gods of destruction are simultaneously engulfed with their own EE aura and are also seen unaffected by the auras of the other gods of destruction, which supports that dragon ball following this line of thinking.

​

 

[RisingIons]

Wrong.
The "ball" in Zeno's hand is just a light that appears when he uses his Erase technique. What he erases is not related to what the light touches. What he erases is not restricted by the range and luminosity of the light in his hand, as seen several times throughout the Tournament of Power. In fact, the light never extends beyond the Earth when he erases Zamasu and the entire universe. His targets are erased instantaneously.

It is practically thought-based erasure.

Do we give Solar Flare users Resistance to Blinding now?
Does Roshi get Resistance to Electricity because he created electricity and was unaffected by it?
Do we give the Gods of Destruction Resistance to Existence Erasure because they are unaffected by their attack that is not aimed at them?

This pretty much.

What? If they aren't making contact with or interacting with their own attack then that completely disanalogous to my reasoning.
Also the gods of destruction are simultaneously engulfed with their own EE aura and are also seen unaffected by the auras of the other gods of destruction, which supports that dragon ball following this line of thinking.

​

So you believe that GoDs are passively resisting being erased by their own energy? That would be a pretty stupid power then wouldn't it? Like I said before, users can be exempt, and select those they choose to be exempt. This is how Sidra could give Hakai to a dog without erasing the dog, who is nowhere near god levels of power. And we also see having ki relative or stronger than the GoD's hakai makes them resist their EE properties, which are why other gods don't go around erasing each other. We also see this with Toppo literally physically interacting with Frieza's body with his aura active, and by Toppo's own statement he had to make sure he didn't erase anybody or else he'd be disqualified.

Zeno just ctrl+alt+deleted everything that wasn't him, making him exempt from ever being affected in the first place.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

So you believe that GoDs are passively resisting being erased by their own energy? That would be a pretty stupid power then wouldn't it?

My entire point is that if you have an ability it would be consistent for you to in turn have a resistance to it. And I don't think you can just chose who you want to be exempt, especially not in Zeno's context where the blast was, again omnidirectional (literally extending in every direction) and him existing within the very thing he was erasing.

This is how Sidra could give Hakai to a dog without erasing the dog, who is nowhere near god levels of power.

The "dog" in question never physically touched it, but kept it floating on his hand or near him (feel free to correct me on that though) but even if it did, unless we are considering it pis/cis, it would obv give the dog res.

And we also see having ki relative or stronger than the GoD's hakai makes them resist their EE properties, which are why other gods don't go around erasing each other.

or perhaps the gods have a res equivalent/relative to the level of existence erasure of other gods.

We also see this with Toppo literally physically interacting with Frieza's body with his aura active, and by Toppo's own statement he had to make sure he didn't erase anybody or else he'd be disqualified.

frieza has been established within that point in the series to have a res to EE (albeit on a slightly lower level than required to go unscathed), which is an answer to that, and you said it yourself that toppo at that time was ACTIVELY holding back frieza. which I don't even see the relevance of seeing as zeno's erase and hakai work differently.

Zeno just ctrl+alt+deleted everything that wasn't him, making him exempt from ever being affected in the first place.

I find this line of thinking inconsistent with the blast literally being omnidirectional, inconsistent with him existing within the object he was erasing, and I feel like your interpretation isn't implied at all within the scene.

But I won't argue it further, I think I clarified all I needed to, if you don't want to agree to it thats fine.

 

[RisingIons]

My entire point is that if you have an ability it would be consistent for you to in turn have a resistance to it. And I don't think you can just chose who you want to be exempt, especially not in Zeno's context where the blast was, again omnidirectional (literally extending in every direction) and him existing within the very thing he was erasing.

I know you want this to be true but nothing supports it. As far as hakai goes, my argument is actually supported by Toppo using hakai yet not erasing a single person. Also how is Zeno using an omnidirectional ki blast when we see the universe collapse from the edge of the screen? It never expands outwards or leaves Earth for that matter.

The "dog" in question never physically touched it, but kept it floating on his hand or near him (feel free to correct me on that though) but even if it did, unless we are considering it pis/cis, it would obv give the dog res.

He literally grows the energy out of his hand and throws it. The dog has negative feats putting him at least near Frieza's level for him to not be erased just by touching it.

or perhaps the gods have a res equivalent/relative to the level of existence erasure of other gods.

Which is exactly what I said by saying GoDs have ki levels similar to each other.

frieza has been established within that point in the series to have a res to EE (albeit on a slightly lower level than required to go unscathed), which is an answer to that, and you said it yourself that toppo at that time was ACTIVELY holding back frieza. which I don't even see the relevance of seeing as zeno's erase and hakai work differently.

It's a feat for Toppo's control more than it is for Frieza's resistance, especially since Toppo had every intention not to erase him, and was casually STOMPING him on every interaction.

I find this line of thinking inconsistent with the blast literally being omnidirectional, inconsistent with him existing within the object he was erasing, and I feel like your interpretation isn't implied at all within the scene.

But I won't argue it further, I think I clarified all I needed to, if you don't want to agree to it thats fine.

Disproven with my first video link.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Idk if we are looking at the same vid, but you can clearly see that the erasure affected not only earth, but the parts of zamasu that existed outside of earth, and visibly shows us it just turning white. Further more we within the scene see the light expanding outwards, zamasu visibly in pain, THEN goes inwards then everything is gone. So yes, it is indeed omnidirectional. Both anime and manga.
Edit: Forgot to mention it but it engulfs him as well, so even that implies the blast wasn’t limited to only certain things around him.

The dog thing
Eh we are seeing it from a bad angle so idk if it’s actually making contact with him, plus it’s consistently for balls of energy to form near the body and not actually on it, but either way it doesn’t matter, nor contradict anything I said prior about ee res.

frieza thing
I don’t see how that’s relevant, hakai and zeno’s erasing technique are clearly different, only similar property is the end result, how toppo’s hakai and ee works isn’t automatically how Zeno’s does.
(I’m on my phone that’s why this reply looks weird)

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I know you want this to be true but nothing supports it. As far as hakai goes, my argument is actually supported by Toppo using hakai yet not erasing a single person. Also how is Zeno using an omnidirectional ki blast when we see the universe collapse from the edge of the screen? It never expands outwards or leaves Earth for that matter.

he can simply be using the erasure in multiple places at once
as we see, he is able to keep it on his hand during the scenes in the tournament of power when erasing the universe, yet is also able to erase the fighters, and able to erase their universes as well
all that actually matters is that it is VISIBLY omnidirectional and heaily implied to be by the fact that the time machine just barely escapes the light which kinda is showing that if they touched it they'd be erased
also why are you using toppo's hakai as a comparison to the omni king? In fact, they are visibly different and also the fact that omni king's erasure has never struggled with an opponent
but whether it's omnidirectional or not is a useless point anyways, all that matters is that zeno was literally engulfed in it, and it would just be silly to say "he didn't touch it tho" when he visibly does several times
in fact, we've already seen that the "charging" balls for attacks are still full of energy, as shown by UI goku absolutely flexing on kefla with a kamehameha rail grind, so even the idea that "it's just the visual charging of the attack" is pretty bs

He literally grows the energy out of his hand and throws it. The dog has negative feats putting him at least near Frieza's level for him to not be erased just by touching it.

what does power scaling the dog have to do with anything? are you trying to prove that he has resistance to EE? that's cool I guess
everything else you said seems to be irrelevant/just responding to the other dude
so my work here is done

 

[Nullflowerblush]

see the light expanding outwards

What ******* light? Ripples are not light.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

at this point you would have to either blatantly lie or completely ignore everything I said, or just have a selective memory to say that Zeno has no resistance to EE
surely, surely by now everybody here has at the very absolute lowest, agreed on "likely resistance to EE" by now, no?

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

I think likely at the absolute minimum would be fair

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Count me as disagree on EE. I find it silly that this discussion has been going on this long.

 

[RisingIons]

1. The ripples flow inward toward earth before the erase even happens, not outwards.

2. The same white light you see before the time machine disappears does not expand outward, otherwise at the very minimum we would see earth engulfed in light, not the light closing in to Earth’s center from the edge of the screen.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

2. The same white light you see before the time machine disappears does not expand outward, otherwise at the very minimum we would see earth engulfed in light, not the light closing in to Earth’s center from the edge of the screen.

bad argument
why does the earth need to be engulfed? Not only did I already explain why that is, but the direction of the attack still doesn't matter
so even if it not being omnidirectional was true it would change absolutely nothing about anything at all

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Count me as disagree on EE. I find it silly that this discussion has been going on this long.

I see, so this must be why dragon ball threads get absolutely gunned down 99% of the time by the wiki
people disagree for pretty much no reason, and regardless of them being debunked or not if they can make the argument look big and long then they just instantly win and the thread gets closed for "stalemating" or something
seriously, you're literally just gonna announce publicly that you're gonna disagree with a debunked argument just because the argument has lasted a while?
this wiki is sometimes so hard to take seriously

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I see, so this must be why dragon ball threads get absolutely gunned down 99% of the time by the wiki
people disagree for pretty much no reason, and regardless of them being debunked or not if they can make the argument look big and long then they just instantly win and the thread gets closed for "stalemating" or something
seriously, you're literally just gonna announce publicly that you're gonna disagree with a debunked argument just because the argument has lasted a while?
this wiki is sometimes so hard to take seriously

but if that wasn't your intention I apologize in advance, but it still is more of a general statement tbh

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

1. The ripples flow inward toward earth before the erase even happens, not outwards.

2. The same white light you see before the time machine disappears does not expand outward, otherwise at the very minimum we would see earth engulfed in light, not the light closing in to Earth’s center from the edge of the screen.

We see Zeno creating the blast, engulfing himself, the light spreads almost reaching the time machine, then we see green sky zamasu screaming in pain, then it goes to a view of the entire earth which we see is covered in a white aura, and we see the red zamasu also screaming in pain implying this part of him was already affected as well, then we see ripples collapsing inwards implying it already extended out into the entire universe or wherever the erase encompassed, then we see all of that collapsing in and on itself. So yes obviously it went outwards before collapsing inwards.

2. We clearly see it expanding outward which is why it almost reached the time machine and eventually made the entire earth glow white seconds before the erasure…

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I see, so this must be why dragon ball threads get absolutely gunned down 99% of the time by the wiki
people disagree for pretty much no reason, and regardless of them being debunked or not if they can make the argument look big and long then they just instantly win and the thread gets closed for "stalemating" or something
seriously, you're literally just gonna announce publicly that you're gonna disagree with a debunked argument just because the argument has lasted a while?
this wiki is sometimes so hard to take seriously

They weren't debunked though. The argument made by Null and others made more sense to me, and so I voiced by disagreement with adding EE resistance. Its as simple as that.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

They weren't debunked though. The argument made by Null and others made more sense to me, and so I voiced by disagreement with adding EE resistance. Its as simple as that.

ok but

well that kinda is what happens with ki but a lot of Ki attacks are like some kind of weird kinetic energy or explosion thing? It's like they would be being "hit" but not really absorbing the impact of the attack. But we also know that Ki itself increases durability, so that likely has something to do with it
we also see it happening with Vegeta blowing himself up vs buu, but the difference is that Vegeta himself is constantly in the radius of the attack so it kinda screws himself too
but regardless, EE ball thingy is different from Ki, and the EE attack is most certainly touching Zeno
you could also say that Zeno's visual thing is just some kind of aura, but that's unlikely because the white balls are visibly expanding from that, which is showing that they are the same thing, and thus, he was still touching the exact same thing that erases shit on contact
but that doesn't even need to be acknowledged anyways since we literally see him absolutely devoured by the EE, which shouldn't be a thing unless obviously EE resistance

It's not stupid and let me explain why
yes, he can select his targets but the fact that he didn't during the zamasu scene is already proven, and the explanation for "why would he do that to himself" is because he didn't have to avoid erasing himself
can does not = did
we already know that he did not, so this point is simply invalid
and it did expand to the size of the universe, it obviously just happened semi offscreen but we know it kept expanding because
1. zamasu literally reacts to it expanding when it starts destroying him
2. we literally see it happen when the time machine teleports away
also, during the scenes of erasing individual people, yeah he does select them individually without the expanding but
the brief moments showing the actual universes erased proves my point as we also see an expanding white light in those scenes doing the exact same thing
when he erases universes it's always an expanding ball, and when he erases small individuals it's just instantaneous and selected
also stop repeating yourself I don't think it's helping your case
the facts are simple, zeno erased the entire universe
he was in the universe
he visibly is caught in the blast as well and we know it made contact with them
if something erases what it makes contact with and zeno makes contact with it and doesn't get erased, the most basic form of 1 2 logic tells us that zeno has ee resistance
once again, it makes sense from both a logical and narrative standpoint
and once again, nobody has presented any anti feats yet.

but I assume you'll be open minded enough to agree with this now that you've thankfully helped me lay out all the counterarguments left to beat

hax is always a case by case basis because the term itself is vague, so time stop here only makes it sound like a good argument because the comparison is fundamentally flawed and actually misrepresents the logic of the argument, so that really holds no weight here
it would be best to compare EE to only itself, and we can visibly see that Zeno is making complete contact with his attack that erases what it touches
and yes, we do know that it just erases what it touches from
1. the intitial reaction of zamasu when it seems to touch him
2. the timing of when the time machine avoids being touched by the attack, likely indicating that if it had made contact it would have instantly erased them. the fact that 2 of the kais also escaped with it kinda supports that they knew that would happen as well, which matters considering they probably know more about zeno's powers than anybody there
and also it's pretty much just common sense unless there's proof otherwise
so to sum it up

• attack erases anything it touches
• zeno definitely touches it and doesn't get erased

if you say that zeno can choose what it erases regardless of if it touches them or not, then you have to have some kind of proof
but considering that we've already seen EE resistance from characters who are much lower and don't have the ability to erase like frieza, and also the fact that the gods of destruction who should theoretically be able to erase him (if he didn't have EE res) admit to being far below him, I highly doubt the authors writing in the future nor the already established logic will be giving any room for argument against zeno having it as well
if it does come to that though we could always just revert the changes, but until then, the CRT remains correct (for the EE part, not sure about void)

he can simply be using the erasure in multiple places at once
as we see, he is able to keep it on his hand during the scenes in the tournament of power when erasing the universe, yet is also able to erase the fighters, and able to erase their universes as well
all that actually matters is that it is VISIBLY omnidirectional and heaily implied to be by the fact that the time machine just barely escapes the light which kinda is showing that if they touched it they'd be erased
also why are you using toppo's hakai as a comparison to the omni king? In fact, they are visibly different and also the fact that omni king's erasure has never struggled with an opponent
but whether it's omnidirectional or not is a useless point anyways, all that matters is that zeno was literally engulfed in it, and it would just be silly to say "he didn't touch it tho" when he visibly does several times
in fact, we've already seen that the "charging" balls for attacks are still full of energy, as shown by UI goku absolutely flexing on kefla with a kamehameha rail grind, so even the idea that "it's just the visual charging of the attack" is pretty bs


what does power scaling the dog have to do with anything? are you trying to prove that he has resistance to EE? that's cool I guess
everything else you said seems to be irrelevant/just responding to the other dude
so my work here is done

literally every possible counterargument worth disproving is disproven so
I hope you're willing to change your vote

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Ok, allow me to express my personal opinion.

You don't need all this arguments about light and stuff in my opinion. The fact is, if Zeno wants to nuke the world, which includes U7, he needs to affect himself too. There's no in between left here, Zeno is literally obligated to being engulfed in his attack , Otherwise a part of space time would still be left if he actually selected to not affect himself, and the future would look like a Minecraft world with missing chunks.

This is what I think. I honestly don't care about the outcome of the CRT.

 

[azontr]

Ok, allow me to express my personal opinion.

You don't need all this arguments about light and stuff in my opinion. The fact is, if Zeno wants to nuke the world, which includes U7, he needs to affect himself too. There's no in between left here, Zeno is literally obligated to being engulfed in his attack , Otherwise a part of space time would still be left if he actually selected to not affect himself, and the future would look like a Minecraft world with missing chunks.

This is just not how it works. If Zeno nuked a universe, he would not be simultaneously nuking himself as well, that just doesn't make sense.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

This is just not how it works. If Zeno nuked a universe, he would not be simultaneously nuking himself as well, that just doesn't make sense.

This is literally just an argument for incredulity.

 

[azontr]

This is literally just an argument for incredulity.

How so? Explain to me why in the process of erasing an entire universe, Zeno would also simultaneously be nuking himself.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

This is just not how it works. If Zeno nuked a universe, he would not be simultaneously nuking himself as well, that just doesn't make sense.

Think of someone bombing a building they are already in, and surviving it. That’s probably the best possible analogy I can give

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

How so? Explain to me why in the process of erasing an entire universe, Zeno would also simultaneously be nuking himself.

I explained it already within the thread multiple times

 

[azontr]

Think of someone bombing a building they are already in, and surviving it. That’s probably the best possible analogy I can give

This isn't a bomb though. Zeno can control what he erases and what isn't erased, why would he attempt to erase himself while in the process of erasing a universe?

 

[RisingIons]

bad argument
why does the earth need to be engulfed? Not only did I already explain why that is, but the direction of the attack still doesn't matter
so even if it not being omnidirectional was true it would change absolutely nothing about anything at all

Imagine claiming that my argument is bad when you literally claimed it was a ball of ki expanding from his hands, yet from deep space we see the timeline collapse towards its center, not an imaginary big ball of blue light expanding from the source.

 

[RisingIons]

We see Zeno creating the blast, engulfing himself, the light spreads almost reaching the time machine, then we see green sky zamasu screaming in pain, then it goes to a view of the entire earth which we see is covered in a white aura, and we see the red zamasu also screaming in pain implying this part of him was already affected as well, then we see ripples collapsing inwards implying it already extended out into the entire universe or wherever the erase encompassed, then we see all of that collapsing in and on itself. So yes obviously it went outwards before collapsing inwards.

2. We clearly see it expanding outward which is why it almost reached the time machine and eventually made the entire earth glow white seconds before the erasure…

This entire reply is fanfiction.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Circular arguments from both parts, now I remember why I try to avoid DB threads on VBW (and VBW as a whole, tbf)

 

[Nullflowerblush]

This is not a bomb. He is erasing the universe -- not wrecking it, erasing it. Deleting it. Removing it from existence.
There is no collateral damage to be had here that would affect Zeno, because the universe is erased.

 

[azontr]

Circular arguments from both parts, now I remember why I try to avoid DB threads on VBW (and VBW as a whole, tbf)

This is not a valid argument, if you didn't notice.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

This is not a valid argument, if you didn't notice.

That wasn't an argument in the first place, can you read before commenting at least? Idk what you're trying to pull on me but it's not working, sorry.

 

[azontr]

That wasn't an argument relevant to the thread. Idk what you're trying to pull on me but it's not working, sorry.

Calling the other side's argument circular without actually debating is not an argument. Trying to strawman me is also not working.

Zeno is not creating an explosion. He is not making the universe blow up. He is erasing it using an ability that he has full control over. He would not be included in the equation of things erased by said ability.