Grand Supreme Kai (Chou) downgrade

[SamanPatou]

This should be quick.
Premise: Sorry if the linked website isn't good or something, I just couldn't find another with english scans to prove my points

Currently, the Grand Supreme Kai is "At least 3-B" due having fought Full Power Moro.

The problem is that in the first fight he and the South Kai were getting stomped by Moro, as you can see by them being fatigued and damaged, while the goat wizard was totally fine.

Buu with the Kai's power is indeed superior to Moro, but just to the weakened one. And, at the end of the chapter, Moro recovers his original power, which makes him stronger than Buu/Kai, as also stated by him.

Because of this, scaling the Grand Supreme Kai to full power Moro is wrong, as he was able to overpower only his weakened form
He should be downgraded to 4-B, for being stronger than the original Good Buu and a weakened Moro, who is such for scaling to base/ssj Vegeta and Goku.

It must be noted that the Kai can't scale to god/blue Goku and Vegeta, as they state to have greater raw power than full power Moro.

 

[senseikeleon]

Looks fine so I agree

 

[Kin201]

Is there any way for him to keep the 3-B rating? It seems a massive downgrade to me. If there isn't, I agree with the downgrade.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I agree with the downgrade.

 

[RippleW]

disagree moro is more powerful than grand supreme kai but the supreme kai was able to somewhat dodge moro attacks and survive and was able to catch moro off guard and hold him in place

he did have merus to help him and damage moro eyes but he still hold him in place which shows he can't have solar system level ap to hold moro

the grand supreme kai even stated he got weaken because of when goku used the spirit bomb to obliterate buu

even vegeta stated moro has grown more powerfulI
therefore shows grand supreme kai can dodge moro attack and survive from then even hold moro in place

 

[SamanPatou]

Dodging has nothing to do with ap, as well as survive but being heavily damaged by attacks from characters stronger than you.
Dragon Ball is filled with these things and with this logic you can scale Yamcha to surviving the Cell Jrs, Piccolo kicking Frieza, everyone not being insta killed by Broly, Mr. Satan surviving a slap from Cell and a kick from Buu and so on with dozens of similar instances. To scale from someone's attack you have to totally resist it, not just survive, especially if that attacks it's not stated to have the entire power of the user, instead of just the amount needed to surpass the victim.
And the Kai got Moro by surprise by teleporting him while he was blinded, and that would still be lifting strength, not AP, but the whole plan was to distract and teleport him on Namek, because only Goku and Vegeta could deal with him.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

disagree moro is more powerful than grand supreme kai but the supreme kai was able to somewhat dodge moro attacks and survive and was able to catch moro off guard and hold him in place

Master Roshi dodged Jiren's attacks for a bit in the manga. I don't think he's Jiren's tier because of that.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Wait, if Moro Arc SSB Goku / Vegeta are individually stronger than Full Power Moro (disregarding magic), then Moro would get downgraded himself in that key, since he currently scales to UIO Goku / SSBE Vegeta

 

[SamanPatou]

That key considers Full Power Moro after the three months of time, when he ate countless planets, became "superior to the gods" and was in par with UI Sign Goku, as seen by their battle, when they even clashed their auras to see who got the bigger one.
The one in this CRT is the Moro who just got back his old powers.

At most full power Moro could be split in two keys, before and after the three months, but I think it's kinda pointless to have this other key.

 

[RippleW]

Dodging has nothing to do with ap, as well as survive but being heavily damaged by attacks from characters stronger than you.
Dragon Ball is filled with these things and with this logic you can scale Yamcha to surviving the Cell Jrs, Piccolo kicking Frieza, everyone not being insta killed by Broly, Mr. Satan surviving a slap from Cell and a kick from Buu and so on with dozens of similar instances. To scale from someone's attack you have to totally resist it, not just survive, especially if that attacks it's not stated to have the entire power of the user, instead of just the amount needed to surpass the victim.
And the Kai got Moro by surprise by teleporting him while he was blinded, and that would still be lifting strength, not AP, but the whole plan was to distract and teleport him on Namek, because only Goku and Vegeta could deal with him.

buu was also able to deflect moro attack which is life energy of the planet
buu was also able to keep up with more powerful moro before he gain his full power
and isn't ssj vegeta multi galaxy level

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That key considers Full Power Moro after the three months of time, when he ate countless planets, became "superior to the gods" and was in par with UI Sign Goku, as seen by their battle, when they even clashed their auras to see who got the bigger one.
The one in this CRT is the Moro who just got back his old powers.

At most full power Moro could be split in two keys, before and after the three months, but I think it's kinda pointless to have this other key.

There is no reason not to. Or at least say something like:

At least 3-B (Shouldn't be much weaker than SSB Goku and Vegeta), higher after absorbing more planets (Grew significantly stronger and matched UIO Goku in their fight)

 

[SamanPatou]

buu was also able to deflect moro attack which is life energy of the planet
buu was also able to keep up with more powerful moro before he gain his full power
and isn't ssj vegeta multi galaxy level

That's because Buu is immune to planet magic, as he is also immune to other forms of magic like absorption, but Buu is indeed stronger than Moro before he gets the full power, the point is that that Moro isn't 3-B to start with.

Goku and Vegeta ssj aren't 3-B because the manga doesn't feature the base form absorbing the godly power

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Wasn't there also the thing where SSJ Black was >> SSB Vegeta but then SSB Vegeta > SSJR Black?

If that would be the case why they can't be 3-B by scaling above SSG Goku from BoG?

SSJR is also another version of SSGSS in the manga, much like SSB

 

[SamanPatou]

There is no reason not to. Or at least say something like:

At least 3-B (Shouldn't be much weaker than SSB Goku and Vegeta), higher after absorbing more planets (Grew significantly stronger and matched UIO Goku in their fight)

A single key shouldn't contain a difference given by two different points in time, at most we make another one.

The problem is that judging Moro's power in that instance is difficult, because he is much stronger than the Dai Kai, but still unquantifiably inferior to Goku and Vegeta in their god/blue form, who still made short work by the prisoners powered up by original power Moro, who didn't fight the saiyan.

But this has nothing to do with this CRT anyway, this should be reserved to another thread specifically made for an additional key to Moro.

Vegeta was stronger than Rosè Black after he trains and learns to switch between forms, for how little sense it can have, but this also doesn't have anything to do here, since we are speaking of characters who are over the ssj god level.

 

[RippleW]

That's because Buu is immune to planet magic, as he is also immune to other forms of magic like absorption, but Buu is indeed stronger than Moro before he gets the full power, the point is that that Moro isn't 3-B to start with.

Goku and Vegeta ssj aren't 3-B because the manga doesn't feature the base form absorbing the godly power

it only stated that moro magic doesn't work on buu never stated life energy attack doesn't work on him
and his energy absorption doesn't work on buu
I think goku stated buu or moro have gotten stronger than before

 

[SamanPatou]

I have linked in the op Goku talking about Buu having gotten stronger than before after unlocking the Dai Kai's personality, and it's one of the reasons that I think should go in the new rating, but it still is a higher level of 4-B.
And planet energy doesn't work as Buu literally went through it unarmed (also noticed by Goku), but planet magic is still magic (as also currently written in our profiles) and the only time Moro damaged him was through a physical attack or a ki blast from the mouth.
But this still doesn't prove that the Dai Kaio is remotely comparable to full power Moro.

 

[RippleW]

I have linked in the op Goku talking about Buu having gotten stronger than before after unlocking the Dai Kai's personality, and it's one of the reasons that I think should go in the new rating, but it still is a higher level of 4-B.
And planet energy doesn't work as Buu literally went through it unarmed (also noticed by Goku), but planet magic is still magic (as also currently written in our profiles) and the only time Moro damaged him was through a physical attack or a ki blast from the mouth.
But this still doesn't prove that the Dai Kaio is remotely comparable to full power Moro.

your right more I think about it full power moro destroy grand supreme kai and he couldn't even touch him

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I have linked in the op Goku talking about Buu having gotten stronger than before after unlocking the Dai Kai's personality, and it's one of the reasons that I think should go in the new rating, but it still is a higher level of 4-B.
And planet energy doesn't work as Buu literally went through it unarmed (also noticed by Goku), but planet magic is still magic (as also currently written in our profiles) and the only time Moro damaged him was through a physical attack or a ki blast from the mouth.
But this still doesn't prove that the Dai Kaio is remotely comparable to full power Moro.

Damaging Buu also doesn't mean you're comparable to him because of his regeberation, such as when Base Gotenks destroyed his top half, but then Buu stomped him

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

A single key shouldn't contain a difference given by two different points in time, at most we make another one.

The problem is that judging Moro's power in that instance is difficult, because he is much stronger than the Dai Kai, but still unquantifiably inferior to Goku and Vegeta in their god/blue form, who still made short work by the prisoners powered up by original power Moro, who didn't fight the saiyan.

But this has nothing to do with this CRT anyway, this should be reserved to another thread specifically made for an additional key to Moro.

Vegeta was stronger than Rosè Black after he trains and learns to switch between forms, for how little sense it can have, but this also doesn't have anything to do here, since we are speaking of characters who are over the ssj god level.

We literally have that for DBZ specifically with Goku's Android Saga key. But that may need to be divided into two keys so idk

Also Moro's old form key already have him at 3-B while using the planet magic, so I don't see why my example wouldn't work too

 

[SamanPatou]

My point about damaging Buu wasn't related to AP, but the fact that Moro couldn't use planet magic because ineffective due to Buu's magic immunity.

Moro's key is because it splits his own stats and magic, multiple tiers in a single key should be given when the tier changes due to a specific attack, weapon etc...,

Fair enough about Goku, though, even if I disagree with that way of handling the profile.

But all of this is off-topic, it needs its own thread.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

This isn't a seperate tier though. Moro is still 3-B even after absorbing the planets when he fights UIO Goku, so it'll just be higher.

Also Moro in all forms should recieve a "higher with energy absorption" rating

 

[SamanPatou]

You mean adding a specification about that key being for Moro after he absorbed planets and not before?

Anyway, what do you think of the Dai Kai downgrade?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

You mean adding a specification about that key being for Moro after he absorbed planets and not before?

Anyway, what do you think of the Dai Kai downgrade?

Yes, since with this he can overpower characters who are initially stronger than him such as SSG Vegeta in his old form, and UIO Goku in his full power key

The downgrade looks good to me. It was mentioned they couldn't defeat Moro by any means they had and they had to resort to sealing the Grand Supreme Kai's magic to seal him, so he's definitely not comparable to full power Moro

 

[SamanPatou]

Thx

I summon @DarkDragonMedeus and @AKM sama for further opinions from staff members.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Unfortunately, my knowledge on Chou is quite limited, so I don't think I'll be much help here.

 

[SamanPatou]

Ok, thank you anyway!

 

[AKM sama]

Seems to make sense, although I am not keeping up with the manga atm. @Damage3245 created some revisions when these chapters were coming out so he might be of more help here.

 

[Damage3245]

This seems fine to me.

 

[SamanPatou]

Since no one disagrees, I guess I can apply the changes.

 

[Duedate8898]

Thread was asked to be closed, that's kinda my job. So I shall close it