Graham Abilities Addition

[Regidian]

Resistance to Resistance negation to High Godly Regeneration ( Upto Infinite layers, can Regenerate even after getting erased for infinity inside Anos source).

Just to tell but but why it should get up to infinite layer? He just infinite regen himself.

 

[Dereck03]

Not sure the logic manipulation, could be going by the last part..do you have another example of its use?

Reason/logic manipulation in MG is a bit difficult to explain, so to speak, logic is above everything in Maou Gakuin, dualities (we even have an order in the verse that would qualify for nonduality or transduality and the logic is still above it), concepts, laws, Causality, fate, non-existence and even logic itself. The reason why Logic manip is being given to Befenguzdogma is that it was able for a period of time to contend with venuzdonoa conceptual attacks. All venuzdonoa's attacks destroy logic, since it manipulates, alters, destroys, unbound and beyond logic. If Befenguzdogma could not manipulate logic then it would have instantly lost to Venuzdonoa.

Why put Reality Warping, Logic Manipulation and Law Manipulation when one covers all three? First, we don't have Logic Manipulation on the wiki but can be substituted by putting Reality Warping|Logic Manipulation ... or just let reality warping simple as that. Then I don't see any mention of of Law being stated in the quotes.

Yeah, we don't have Logic Manip. But we use it anyway and link Law manip instead, the point is that it is still present because as I already mentioned what logic manip means in Maou. As for why Befenguz has Law Manipulation? Well, the weapon itself is created on the basis of an order (Duality, Laws and Concepts) and it itself can manipulate the order, alter it, destroy it so it has Law & Cm.

Then comes the Magic Eyes of Purple Destruction ....the chapter 231 link to a full japanese website, do I look like I know Japanese? If the chapter is not translated then I will simply ignore it so till you translated this chapter and whatever feats/powers come from it will be ignored.

This quote was just the addition of the new eyes to Graham.

Chapter 265 - if these abilities mentioned by you are already on Anos's profile then this is enough to scale Graham to his' son ones.

And here it is shown that he can use those eyes so there is no problem.

Spacetime Manipualtion and BFR - I don't see any of these being mentioned here, or it lacks the context..its just says that it makes him "transcend dimensions" which alone doesn't give anything without further explanation/context from the series. At best is just spatial manipulation and even then it doesn't explain a thing. After that he steps forward and thrust something out of his Dhidatem.?? I have no context of what this means. Basically, I don't see any space/time being manipulated, its without explaination what "transcend dimensions" means and I don't see him BFR-ing someone/something.

Here he explained it wrong, Anos has BFR for the same reason, since Barioka can send to the target beyond space-time to a different dimension.

Immortality Negation - Chapter 364 - I mean, the quotes just shows him decapitating a guy and then him not being able to regenerate ... we don't have the context for what level of regen they have

Celis can regenerate from Source (Concept) destruction AKA High-Godly

what Resurrection Ingal spell does, and the like.

Ingal is just resurrection spell. If we had to give a tier to the resurrection it would be Mid-Godly.

All I would say is Regeneration Negation up to Mid and Immortality Negation Type 3 up to the same level. If that spell is a resurrection one (should be from the name) then its also Immortality Negation Type 4. In rest, you didn;t provide any scan/quote/scaling and or a good explanation for the rest of the negations.

Anos can also decapitate the target, while negating regeneration and immortalities. So this may be a similar case.

Higher degree Nonexistent Physiology - I don't see how its infinite layers or NEP, its just kept on destroying it while he came back, not that it overcome a layer then another, and so on.

It's just like throwing a human into a fire and seeing him burning but because he has Low-High regen he keeps coming back, nothing more and nothing less.

This analogy would be correct only if it were not for Graham's nature. Graham has a "normal" source, like all other characters. Once that source is destroyed, his Source of Nothingness remains. Indeed, his Source of Nothingness is the lack of his normal source, which is why his Source of Nothingness doesn't function like other sources (he no longer has a body, soul/spirit, mind, or even existent magic power, despite having this "source"). This Source of Nothingness is definitely completely nonexistent tho. After this source was destroyed, we are given a partial insight into his true nature which is a pure nothingness, described as "nothingness without reason/logic" (Lacking logic in the verse is already above everything I already mentioned in the verse), that pure nothingness can be further destroyed until it reaches its true nothingness and as Graham previously said "The more he is destroyed, the closer he will come to his true nature". The point is that the more it is destroyed, the more it loses its reason/logic and becomes impossible to affect, which is why layers are being given to the continued destruction of Graham's nothingness.

This is just a process that goes forever but it doesn't mean that its infinite layered. It even says in chapter 371 that is has a limit - "Venuzdonor has a time limit. The sword of destruction cannot destroy the truth of his emptiness forever. No matter what magic we use, order will eventually return to its original form."

The limit is for Venuzdonoa not for Graham's Nothingness.

Negation to High Godly Regeneration, Transduality (Type 2) and Acausality (Type 5) - since Anos has these then he can get them.

except for the Acausality and Transduality, not seeing how this wouldn't just be NPi.

If he only interacted with it he would agree with Everything12, but Graham negates the chaos and destruction of Anos' source by superimposing his nothingness and thus turning all that chaos and destruction into nothingness thus negating his nature. It's not just interaction. But what Graham did not expect was that Anos' destructive power would surpass his nothingness.

Resistance to Resistance negation to High Godly Regeneration - I guess as he kept coming back but like I said I don't see an infinite layer .. same reason as the comparison with burning someone with low-high regen.

I explained this in the above message. And to add... Just as Graham tried to overcame Anos' chaotic and destructive nature with his nothingness, the moment Anos superimposed that nothingness and overcame his nature in the face of Graham's nothingness, this leaves Graham able to resist the nature that continues to negate his eternal and permanent destruction. And as I said previously, each time graham is destroyed, the more nothingness he becomes as he gets closer and closer to his true nothingness. The lack of reason/logic makes him impossible to affect, only Venuz, MEoCD and Anos' source, which lack, unbound and beyond logic/reason can destroy this nothingness eternally and without restrictions.

If the layers are not accepted, then what should be done here or what else do you think could be suggested instead? Since the potential and the explanation is there.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Reason/logic manipulation in MG is a bit difficult to explain, so to speak, logic is above everything in Maou Gakuin, dualities (we even have an order in the verse that would qualify for nonduality or transduality and the logic is still above it), concepts, laws, Causality, fate, non-existence and even logic itself. The reason why Logic manip is being given to Befenguzdogma is that it was able for a period of time to contend with venuzdonoa conceptual attacks. All venuzdonoa's attacks destroy logic, since it manipulates, alters, destroys, unbound and beyond logic. If Befenguzdogma could not manipulate logic then it would have instantly lost to Venuzdonoa.

Yeah, we don't have Logic Manip. But we use it anyway and link Law manip instead, the point is that it is still present because as I already mentioned what logic manip means in Maou. As for why Befenguz has Law Manipulation? Well, the weapon itself is created on the basis of an order (Duality, Laws and Concepts) and it itself can manipulate the order, alter it, destroy it so it has Law & Cm.

This quote was just the addition of the new eyes to Graham.

And here it is shown that he can use those eyes so there is no problem.

Here he explained it wrong, Anos has BFR for the same reason, since Barioka can send to the target beyond space-time to a different dimension.

Celis can regenerate from Source (Concept) destruction AKA High-Godly

Ingal is just resurrection spell. If we had to give a tier to the resurrection it would be Mid-Godly.

Anos can also decapitate the target, while negating regeneration and immortalities. So this may be a similar case.


This analogy would be correct only if it were not for Graham's nature. Graham has a "normal" source, like all other characters. Once that source is destroyed, his Source of Nothingness remains. Indeed, his Source of Nothingness is the lack of his normal source, which is why his Source of Nothingness doesn't function like other sources (he no longer has a body, soul/spirit, mind, or even existent magic power, despite having this "source"). This Source of Nothingness is definitely completely nonexistent tho. After this source was destroyed, we are given a partial insight into his true nature which is a pure nothingness, described as "nothingness without reason/logic" (Lacking logic in the verse is already above everything I already mentioned in the verse), that pure nothingness can be further destroyed until it reaches its true nothingness and as Graham previously said "The more he is destroyed, the closer he will come to his true nature". The point is that the more it is destroyed, the more it loses its reason/logic and becomes impossible to affect, which is why layers are being given to the continued destruction of Graham's nothingness.

The limit is for Venuzdonoa not for Graham's Nothingness.


If he only interacted with it he would agree with Everything12, but Graham negates the chaos and destruction of Anos' source by superimposing his nothingness and thus turning all that chaos and destruction into nothingness thus negating his nature. It's not just interaction. But what Graham did not expect was that Anos' destructive power would surpass his nothingness.

I explained this in the above message. And to add... Just as Graham tried to overcame Anos' chaotic and destructive nature with his nothingness, the moment Anos superimposed that nothingness and overcame his nature in the face of Graham's nothingness, this leaves Graham able to resist the nature that continues to negate his eternal and permanent destruction. And as I said previously, each time graham is destroyed, the more nothingness he becomes as he gets closer and closer to his true nothingness. The lack of reason/logic makes him impossible to affect, only Venuz, MEoCD and Anos' source, which lack, unbound and beyond logic/reason can destroy this nothingness eternally and without restrictions.

If the layers are not accepted, then what should be done here or what else do you think could be suggested instead? Since the potential and the explanation is there.

Wow, you handled everything

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Reason/logic manipulation in MG is a bit difficult to explain, so to speak, logic is above everything in Maou Gakuin, dualities (we even have an order in the verse that would qualify for nonduality or transduality and the logic is still above it), concepts, laws, Causality, fate, non-existence and even logic itself. The reason why Logic manip is being given to Befenguzdogma is that it was able for a period of time to contend with venuzdonoa conceptual attacks. All venuzdonoa's attacks destroy logic, since it manipulates, alters, destroys, unbound and beyond logic. If Befenguzdogma could not manipulate logic then it would have instantly lost to Venuzdonoa.

Yeah, we don't have Logic Manip. But we use it anyway and link Law manip instead, the point is that it is still present because as I already mentioned what logic manip means in Maou. As for why Befenguz has Law Manipulation? Well, the weapon itself is created on the basis of an order (Duality, Laws and Concepts) and it itself can manipulate the order, alter it, destroy it so it has Law & Cm.

This quote was just the addition of the new eyes to Graham.

And here it is shown that he can use those eyes so there is no problem.

Here he explained it wrong, Anos has BFR for the same reason, since Barioka can send to the target beyond space-time to a different dimension.

Celis can regenerate from Source (Concept) destruction AKA High-Godly

Ingal is just resurrection spell. If we had to give a tier to the resurrection it would be Mid-Godly.

Anos can also decapitate the target, while negating regeneration and immortalities. So this may be a similar case.


This analogy would be correct only if it were not for Graham's nature. Graham has a "normal" source, like all other characters. Once that source is destroyed, his Source of Nothingness remains. Indeed, his Source of Nothingness is the lack of his normal source, which is why his Source of Nothingness doesn't function like other sources (he no longer has a body, soul/spirit, mind, or even existent magic power, despite having this "source"). This Source of Nothingness is definitely completely nonexistent tho. After this source was destroyed, we are given a partial insight into his true nature which is a pure nothingness, described as "nothingness without reason/logic" (Lacking logic in the verse is already above everything I already mentioned in the verse), that pure nothingness can be further destroyed until it reaches its true nothingness and as Graham previously said "The more he is destroyed, the closer he will come to his true nature". The point is that the more it is destroyed, the more it loses its reason/logic and becomes impossible to affect, which is why layers are being given to the continued destruction of Graham's nothingness.

The limit is for Venuzdonoa not for Graham's Nothingness.


If he only interacted with it he would agree with Everything12, but Graham negates the chaos and destruction of Anos' source by superimposing his nothingness and thus turning all that chaos and destruction into nothingness thus negating his nature. It's not just interaction. But what Graham did not expect was that Anos' destructive power would surpass his nothingness.

I explained this in the above message. And to add... Just as Graham tried to overcame Anos' chaotic and destructive nature with his nothingness, the moment Anos superimposed that nothingness and overcame his nature in the face of Graham's nothingness, this leaves Graham able to resist the nature that continues to negate his eternal and permanent destruction. And as I said previously, each time graham is destroyed, the more nothingness he becomes as he gets closer and closer to his true nothingness. The lack of reason/logic makes him impossible to affect, only Venuz, MEoCD and Anos' source, which lack, unbound and beyond logic/reason can destroy this nothingness eternally and without restrictions.

If the layers are not accepted, then what should be done here or what else do you think could be suggested instead? Since the potential and the explanation is there.

Definitely my English wouldn't be this much better to explain things . Thanks for helping me out.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Most of this stuff seems fine but I'm undecided on the Immortality Negations and Higher Degree of Nonexistent Physiology.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Most of this stuff seems fine but I'm undecided on the Immortality Negations and Higher Degree of Nonexistent Physiology.

Thanks for the input.

• About Immortality negation that's Graham's physiological trait. He is an headless demon who replaces the head of others and uses those heads as his own. Whenever he decapitates someone they can't use ignal which is used to resurrect themselves. It was even effective towards Anos.
• Graham source (destroyed) turns into (non existent sourc) nothingness then again gets destroyed turns into deeper nothingness then Again gets destroyed turns into even deeper nothingness which is unable to effect each time.

Don't forget after Graham nothingness destruction he lacks concepts of logic and reason. He was getting turned into deeper nothingness like that.

I don't know if my explanation was good enough to explain things if not I will let others do.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Thanks for the input.

• About Immortality negation that's Graham's physiological trait. He is an headless demon who replaces the head of others and uses those heads as his own. Whenever he decapitates someone they can't use ignal which is used to resurrect themselves. It was even effective towards Anos.
• Graham source (destroyed) turns into (non existent sourc) nothingness then again gets destroyed turns into deeper nothingness then Again gets destroyed turns into even deeper nothingness which is unable to effect each time.

Don't forget after Graham nothingness destruction he lacks concepts of logic and reason. He was getting turned into deeper nothingness like that.

I don't know if my explanation was good enough to explain things if not I will let others do.

Well if he's able to negate those immortalities then it should be fine.

The reason I'm undecided on Nonexistent Physiology is because I'm not well versed in it. Especially after the revision we had regarding it's types and aspects. So I'm just not the best to ask regarding it but if others find it acceptable then I won't argue.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Why put Reality Warping, Logic Manipulation and Law Manipulation when one covers all three? First, we don't have Logic Manipulation on the wiki but can be substituted by putting Reality Warping|Logic Manipulation ... or just let reality warping simple as that. Then I don't see any mention of of Law being stated in the quotes.

Btw Reality warping and law and Conceptual manipulation was already mentioned in Graham profile but its maintained badly. So i was suggesting it should be replaced like this.

You mentioned several abilities that everyone in the verse has but I don't see the quotes/scans for them...while the supporters/readers of the verse may know the rest won't..so either post the scans or scrap the abilities from the CRT (excluding durability negation/conceptual manipulation as those are covered by the first two quotes).

Actually these are on Anos and others profile. I was planning to add the explanation directly to Graham profile once the CRT gets accepted because abilities are already accepted by wiki.

I will add the explanation wait.

Absorption works - but it just says he took their powers - so no sense to say "All Types" as we don't have types on this power. What we have on its page are possible uses of it, not types.

Sure I will replace it power absorption then. Also Graham nothingness can absorb anything and turn it into nothingness does that gives energy absorption?

Necromancy/Summoning - Summoning can be seen from the third quote - Chapter 370 but not the necromancy as it says he recreated the tribe that was supposed to have disappeared. It lacks context for Necromacancy, I would faster put Creation on it.

That's not tribe actually. He decapitated all Phantom Knights. The experiment part is Graham experiment on a certain bloodline to gain that ability.

Zeylons ability granted him necromancy abilities.

Stealth and Invisibility - You mention Rainel and Najira as spells, but the quotes mention them as Liner and Nazira..which leads me to believe that your self-translation is wrong regarding the names as they must be the same if not then you posted the wrong spells. If they are the correct ones then I guess it works...still need to fix the name error in chapter 364.

I will try to get better translation from wiki translation thread but the thing is they do becomes invisible and conceals themselves.

I guess other things are answered by Dereck.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Well if he's able to negate those immortalities then it should be fine.

The reason I'm undecided on Nonexistent Physiology is because I'm not well versed in it. Especially after the revision we had regarding it's types and aspects. So I'm just not the best to ask regarding it but if others find it acceptable then I won't argue.

Ok Anyway thanks for your help.

 

[wwereymy235]

Bump

 

[Tatsumi504]

Also Graham nothingness can absorb anything and turn it into nothingness does that gives energy absorption?

No, it'll just be existence erasure. Looks like you guys handled everything else.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Ok Anyway thanks for your help.

Can we edit the verse blog to add deepening as a terminology? Whenever something is said to get deeper like grahams nothingness it means its getting stronger or the potency increases, this'll make it easier to understand why grahams NEP is layered

 

[Zaratthustra]

I haven't yet given my response to the things said above as I just left work so I couldn't create a post about the said statements. Plus I want more inputs regarding the NEP. Plus i don't see yet the scans requested added.

I will post again later regarding the statements.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I haven't yet given my response to the things said above as I just left work so I couldn't create a post about the said statements. Plus I want more inputs regarding the NEP. Plus i don't see yet the scans requested added.

I will post again later regarding the statements.

Take your time

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I haven't yet given my response to the things said above as I just left work so I couldn't create a post about the said statements. Plus I want more inputs regarding the NEP. Plus i don't see yet the scans requested added.

I will post again later regarding the statements.

Sorry I am also busy in IRL i am only free in weekends. I will try to add the scans tomorrow

 

[Antvasima]

Zaratthustra seemed to make sense to me as well. Thank you to him, Everything12, and LordGriffin1000 for helping out.

 

[Fixxed]

Agreeing with Zaratthustra's opinion so far, except for the Acausality and Transduality, not seeing how this wouldn't just be NPi.

Well if he's able to negate those immortalities then it should be fine.

The reason I'm undecided on Nonexistent Physiology is because I'm not well versed in it. Especially after the revision we had regarding it's types and aspects. So I'm just not the best to ask regarding it but if others find it acceptable then I won't argue.

I haven't yet given my response to the things said above as I just left work so I couldn't create a post about the said statements. Plus I want more inputs regarding the NEP. Plus i don't see yet the scans requested added.

I will post again later regarding the statements.

I think this would help. Graham's root is being destroyed over and over agaian (to infinite detruction) until it reach true nothingness. So the more graham being destroyed the more he become nothingness until the true nothingness it self

Spoiler: CHP 373

「この根源の深奥にて、その虚無さえも消え去り真なる無に至るまで、無限の滅びを味わうだろう」
"In the depths of this source, even its emptiness will disappear and you will experience infinite destruction to the true nothingness."

 

[Antvasima]

I think this would help. Graham's root is being destroyed over and over agaian (to infinite detruction) until it reach true nothingness. So the more graham being destroyed the more he become nothingness until the true nothingness it self

Spoiler: CHP 373

「この根源の深奥にて、その虚無さえも消え去り真なる無に至るまで、無限の滅びを味わうだろう」
"In the depths of this source, even its emptiness will disappear and you will experience infinite destruction to the true nothingness."

@Everything12 @LordGriffin1000 @Zaratthustra

 

[Everything12]

Their is a mention of a nothingness beyond the usual nothingness and their is a mention of infinite destruction, but I don't particularly think this is infinite layered Nonexistent Physiology and instead infinite destruction that leads to nothingness that's just a step deeper then usual Nonexistent Physiology.

The infinite destruction could also just be, instead of any infinite layered thing, the fact that by being contained in Anos' source his own source will be destroyed over and over again, so anytime it tries to recover from the deeper nothingness to regular nothingness it's just destroyed again and set back to the deeper nothingness again.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation. That seems to make sense.

 

[Fixxed]

Their is a mention of a nothingness beyond the usual nothingness and their is a mention of infinite destruction, but I don't particularly think this is infinite layered Nonexistent Physiology and instead infinite destruction that leads to nothingness that's just a step deeper then usual Nonexistent Physiology.

The infinite destruction could also just be, instead of any infinite layered thing, the fact that by being contained in Anos' source his own source will be destroyed over and over again, so anytime it tries to recover from the deeper nothingness to regular nothingness it's just destroyed again and set back to the deeper nothingness again.

Graham's root is being destroyed by arnos' root over and over again. But graham is nothingness after the destruction, of course graham is destroyed in arnos source, but instead being destroyed i think being deeper is more accurate. Their root is going to abyss, and going to abyss in maou gakuin verse is mean get deeper/get layered. So graham being destroyed is mean it going to abyss/get deeper than before

So graham get destroy is mean get deeper and deeper until the true nothingness

Spoiler: CHP 371

「だけど、滅びた後のなにもない無が、理さえ伴わない虚無こそが、僕の根源の本来の姿だ」
"But the nothingness after the destruction, the emptiness without reason, is the original form of my roots."
.
.
.
　俺の根源と、グラハムの根源を重ね合わせ、その深淵へと送り込んでいく。
Overlay my roots and Graham's roots and send them into the abyss.

 

[Everything12]

I don't quite agree to that interpretation, and don't quite see the evidence for it. I don't see any evidence to suggest it's more then one layer deeper.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Their is a mention of a nothingness beyond the usual nothingness and their is a mention of infinite destruction, but I don't particularly think this is infinite layered Nonexistent Physiology and instead infinite destruction that leads to nothingness that's just a step deeper then usual Nonexistent Physiology.

When graham's pure nothingness is destroyed, he becomes a deeper, truer/purer nothingness that's even more devoid of reason/logic and more impossible to affect than the previous nothingness, emphasis on impossible to affect.

In Maou, the term "deepening" refers to something becoming stronger, increasing potency, better resistances etc.
For Example, when the silver sea is introduced, the magic of the inhabitants of militia's world basically has no effect on deeper world inhabitants, they have to "deepen" their magic for their spells to be able to affect them.
There have been other times earlier in the series the terms "deep, deeper" have been used like Anos telling others to peer deeper into the abyss so they understand the difference between him and them, when reference is made to who has better understanding of magic, the better one is said to have gone deeper into the abyss.

The infinite destruction could also just be, instead of any infinite layered thing, the fact that by being contained in Anos' source his own source will be destroyed over and over again, so anytime it tries to recover from the deeper nothingness to regular nothingness it's just destroyed again and set back to the deeper nothingness again.

Graham doesn't need to revert to regular nothingness you reform himself. He's capable of coming back from whatever stage of nothingness he's in.
Venuzdonor destroys graham by destroying the reason that nothingness can't be affected or destroyed and at the same time negates his regeneration but venuzdonor has a time limit. It can continue to destroy graham unhindered but once that time limit is reached, the sword would revert thus the reason that was destroyed would be restored because of the world's order.

Basically the infinite destruction is as you described it but graham is supposed to be more impossible to affect meaning he's gaining layers of resistance the more he's pure nothingness is destroyed.

Now the infinite layers of negation comes from the fact that neither Anos source nor venuzdonor needed to increase their power/potency to further destroy graham's nothingness, they're capable of destroying it over and over for eternity no matter how impossible to affect he becomes much like how venuzdonor has never needed to deepen itself to destroy things in deeper layers of the silver sea.
They're effectively bypassing any and all resistances graham gains.

I hope this makes it easier to understand. If scans are needed to prove the stuff for deepening I'll do my best to get them but ask that you give me time as it'll take a lot of effort to find.

 

[Everything12]

I just don't see any evidence that his nothingness goes deeper more the once. You give all these explanations, but when I read the actual evidence I don't actually see any proof of such a thing. You can correlate previous mentioning of abyss and deepening but this instance of it does not have such infinite deepening itself as far as I'm seeing.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that we should go by Everything12's decision here.

 

[Orioreeem]

If the other instances of deepening show that you get more layers then I don't really see a reason why it would be different here especially considering that there is evidence of that even in this instance (the whole fight is the evidence everytime he was further destroyed his nothingness became superior) the rest is just logical conlusion that follows what we have been shown so far with the statemant that this process of destroying him continues on forever.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I just don't see any evidence that his nothingness goes deeper more the once. You give all these explanations, but when I read the actual evidence I don't actually see any proof of such a thing. You can correlate previous mentioning of abyss and deepening but this instance of it does not have such infinite deepening itself as far as I'm seeing.

Not to sound rude but you're possibly ignoring the fact that he's said to be even more devoid of logic/reason the more he's destroyed thus making him more impossible to affect.

 

[Everything12]

I'm not ignoring any facts or logical conclusions. I read the quotes, I read the context you given, I have done so multiple times, and I made my own personally judgement based off what has been presented to me. Unless you present me new evidence, I very much doubt I will be changing my mind on this.

I even read through all the posts and quotes again to see if I truly did miss anything, I have not changed my opinion.

 

[Zaratthustra]

@Dereck03
Guess Logic Manipulation is good.

If Order is a Law and he can manipulate it then it works.

Post the scan for the Spacetime/BFR (where it explains it) to have it here and then it will be good.

Celis regenerating at a High-Godly level and him nullifying it will work but still just Regeneration-Negation and not Immortality. You mentioned Immortality negation (Types.1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 8) where this only works for 2, 3, 4 (cause of the resurrection spell being negated), 5 - you didn;t mention why he would get it, sure regenerating from a concept is good but is does he exist unbound by conventional life or death, or do not exist at all (Celis)? While 8 works as he I assume will exist as long as his concept does too (which if his lifespan is without limit then type 1 works).

@EldemadeDityjon

I still don't see the scans requested being added.

If his absorption absorbs everything including nothingness then energy is a given usually. You just need to post the scans where he absorbs things with his powers in the profile - but if its something more exoteric like let's say soul/mind/laws/concepts or the like then without an actual scan of the feat/statement he will only absorb what he has shown which once again comes to a good explanation backed by scans.

Then you need to post the scan of Zeylons having such an ability cause those that don't read the novel won't know, or if he has a profile link it so we can have a source.


In rest, I agree with Everything, I don't see it being more than once, it does say its "deepening" but it doesn't mean it's another layer without a clearer statement/feat.

 

[Dereck03]

Post the scan for the Spacetime/BFR (where it explains it) to have it here and then it will be good.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

This is the one used, tbh the translation is bad, but I don't have time to translate one myself.

Celis regenerating at a High-Godly level and him nullifying it will work but still just Regeneration-Negation and not Immortality. You mentioned Immortality negation (Types.1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 8) where this only works for 2, 3, 4 (cause of the resurrection spell being negated), 5 - you didn;t mention why he would get it, sure regenerating from a concept is good but is does he exist unbound by conventional life or death, or do not exist at all (Celis)? While 8 works as he I assume will exist as long as his concept does too (which if his lifespan is without limit then type 1 works).

5 is a no so idk why Immo 5 is being suggested, rest is fine.

 

[Orioreeem]

it does say its "deepening" but it doesn't mean it's another layer without a clearer statement/feat.

At other instances in the story where word deepening is used to show that it means layers of hax, would that be good enough to show that it does mean more layers?
Also we have this statement
"Yes, my root is emptiness, just as your root is perdition. The closer I get to annihilation, the more I exert my power and return to my original nothingness." (Graham)
which coupled with
"If you keep exercising the power of the sword, you'll be able to keep destroying me, but that magic sword won't be able to keep its shape forever, can it? Especially if this isn't your Demon Castle." (Graham)
does imply that it's talking about layers because he's continuing to destroy him and the more he is destroyed the more power he exerts and the closer he is to his original nothingness rather then just there being one more layer that just needs to be destroyed.

 

[Everything12]

Nope, it just means one layer deeper. Just because others things have that had gone deeper in the past had infinite layers does not mean we automatically assume that this thing going deeper means it goes infinite layers deeper without stating that itself.

As for the continuing to destroy him infinitely part. Fro what I've read, that seems to be like its just that Graham is able to return from that deeper state of original nothingness, but whenever he tries to do so Anos' sword will automatically destroy him and render him that deeper state of nothingness again (until the swords time limit runs out, then Anos does the source thing)

 

[Dereck03]

As for the continuing to destroy him infinitely part. Fro what I've read, that seems to be like its just that Graham is able to return from that deeper state of original nothingness, but whenever he tries to do so Anos' sword will automatically destroy him and render him that deeper state of nothingness again (until the swords time limit runs out, then Anos does the source thing)

The point is that Graham does not achieve his true nothingness only by being destroyed once. Each time he gets closser to his true nothingness. Anos said that eventually Graham will reach his true nothingness inside his source after so much destruction and will continue to taste an endless/infinite destruction.

 

[Everything12]

Nothing I'm reading makes me think that the deeper emptiness isn't his original nothingness and his full power and that their is something beyond him being destroyed once beyond that.

I understand where you are getting that logic from, but I don't share the opinion that he's saying that theirs even deeper nothingness beyond the deeper nothingness,

 

[Dereck03]

Nothing I'm reading makes me think that the deeper emptiness isn't his original nothingness and his full power and that their is something beyond him being destroyed once beyond that.

I understand where you are getting that logic from, but I don't share the opinion that he's saying that theirs even deeper nothingness beyond the deeper nothingness,

So, I know it's not your obligation, but what do you suggest instead? Also not forgetting that his tue nothingness lacks, unbound and beyond logic/reason and I don't think it is necessary for me to explain what that means. (I already explained what reason/logic is in the verse in one of my posts).

 

[Caduz213]

Looks like admins will treat this as NEP 1 layer above base

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Looks like admins will treat this as NEP 1 layer above base

That ain't NEP type 1.

 

[Caduz213]

That ain't NEP type 1.

Does not exist above base for type 2?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Nope, it just means one layer deeper. Just because others things have that had gone deeper in the past had infinite layers does not mean we automatically assume that this thing going deeper means it goes infinite layers deeper without stating that itself.

As for the continuing to destroy him infinitely part. Fro what I've read, that seems to be like its just that Graham is able to return from that deeper state of original nothingness, but whenever he tries to do so Anos' sword will automatically destroy him and render him that deeper state of nothingness again (until the swords time limit runs out, then Anos does the source thing)

Graham when got destroyed by Venozdonor already reached a point where logic and reason doesn't affecting him. Still he was getting destroyed even deeper. How does that sound. It's definitely a layered one

「だけど、滅びた後のなにもない無が、理さえ伴わない虚無こそが、僕の根源の本来の姿だ」

"But the nothingness after the destruction, the emptiness without reason, is the original form of my roots."

Normal source < nothingness < nothingness without reason< Deeper<<< goes on for infinity.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Does not exist above base for type 2?

That doesn't make sense he is already NEP type 2 when his source got destroyed.

But his true nothingness which is ever deeper lacks reason and logic.